Curse

Theus · Aug 13, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The undead Mesmer

sorry to be rude but WTF putrid isnt a that good skill its yust a few damage thats all stop whining and start playing.

Hes simply a guy who was killed in Tombs with Putrid Explosion and is now crying nerf.

And comparing NR to Putrid Explosion is laughable.

manveruppd · Aug 13, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Hes simply a guy who was killed in Tombs with Putrid Explosion and is now crying nerf.

No he's actually a NECRO frustrated because other Putrid Necros are stealing his corpses away, which is a valid complaint really, except in my experience it's not really that common! Who here plays Tombs EVERY SINGLE DAY? Can you honestly say that every single team has a Putrid Necro in it???

aeroclown · Aug 13, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

What skills have you nerfed? None.
Can you name which skills have been changed since release? Maybe I could take your blase attitude seriously if you demonstrated an understanding of the changes the game has gone through.

Still waiting.
Still waiting for an explanation of the skill involved in Putrid Wars as well.

Have you played BWE, Have you tried reading the Guildwars update page, I suppose not, if you think that oh so magically things have not been nerfed.
I mean hey let get smart and use our brain, lets use hte search function on this forum alone and see the list of complaints. OR is that also magically to hard for you to do. This thread isn't about balance at all, its about someones frustration with a single particular build. IMO Thats a great thing, that means that someone found a build that this person or persons will need to figure out a way to over come. Thats the whole point of PVP it not about to small rewards, its about the battle field skill, the strategy. Not random battles that are solely effected by who can get what changed, becuase it make them mad that they can't see a way around it.

Don't you dare even come here and act like you are the most high and mighty God of war. Just because you fail to see the logic in design and the changes across the board does not make me an idiot or biased. It means that I obviously see things differently based on what you think you know about the proof or lack there of.

Sarus · Aug 13, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Have you played BWE, Have you tried reading the Guildwars update page, I suppose not, if you think that oh so magically things have not been nerfed.

You still haven't named the skills. Stop making half ass arguments that you aren't smart enough to support.

aeroclown · Aug 13, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

You still haven't named the skills. Stop making half ass arguments that you aren't smart enough to support.

Hey thats fine by me. If you want to think that you are the best thing since cheese go for it. I have nothing to prove in this thread. In fact in my opinion its people like you, cop out, that make all the changes in the universe only to complain later about what you thought you knew best.

I enjoy threads where people have to resort to claiming that they know how smart I am, or what I know, becuase they can't even start to make their own opinionated argument.

Have a nice day.

The undead Mesmer · Aug 13, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

the necro skill they nerfed is price of failure :'(

Zeru · Aug 13, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Um, the OP is saying that a) Putrid takes no skill because it's all button mashing, or in some people's cases, a turbo controller and b) it removes the viability of well spells completely unless you want to sacrifice team members. When you have to pull glyph of sacrifice into the equation to make a skill halfway viable you know somethings wrong.

Just wow...learn how to read and make actual arguments rather than posting irrelevant bs and wasting time.

Scaphism · Aug 13, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

Have you played BWE, Have you tried reading the Guildwars update page, I suppose not, if you think that oh so magically things have not been nerfed.

Get your weak ass attempt at a flame off the boards.
I asked you which skills you know that have been nerfed. Take the time to read my post. I didn't say nothing has been changed in the game- because I have been following since the WPE and playing regularly since retail. I'm NOT crying over the skills that have been changed- I'm still waiting for the important ones that remain unchanged, when night after night the scene in tombs in more dead and less fun to play in.
You, however managed to avoid my question entirely by trying to attack my credibility. Answer the question: Which skills, in your opinion, have been "nerfed"? I don't mean toned down appropriately, I mean nerfed into unplayability. Once you answer that, maybe we can start to have a discussion on the subject. Until then you'd be doing everyone a favor by staying out of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

IMO Thats a great thing, that means that someone found a build that this person or persons will need to figure out a way to over come. Thats the whole point of PVP it not about to small rewards, its about the battle field skill, the strategy. Not random battles that are solely effected by who can get what changed, becuase it make them mad that they can't see a way around it.

You have the audacity to come in here and claim that desperately mashing the putrid button and hoping your ping is better than the other team's necro is a battle of skill and strategy? If that's your definition of strategy, I say you have no idea what you're talking about. Instead of thinking up some comeback or personal attack, evaluate the situation where two necros are fighting over one corpse. Tell me if you can come up with a better skill that powers your offense and steals resources (corpses) from your enemies.
You almost got one thing right though: We CAN see a way around Putrid mashing. Adding a slight recharge, or making each button mash cost you energy would change it from a game of no skill (mash button faster) to a game where your realtime choices (when to use Putrid) and your advance planning (which corpse skills you put on your bar with a realistic expectation of playing) matter more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

Don't you dare even come here and act like you are the most high and mighty God of war. Just because you fail to see the logic in design and the changes across the board does not make me an idiot or biased. It means that I obviously see things differently based on what you think you know about the proof or lack there of.

You need to calm down son, and lay off the bad analogies. I didn't start with the namecalling- if you're feeling threatened by the one question I asked
"Which skills have been change since release?", then I don't think we can have a discussion on the topic. If that makes you so apoplectic that you have to come in screaming and fussing, you need to take a time out. Consider it a homework assignment- educate all of us by telling us which skills have been changed since release. If you do, we'll all be grateful to you for furthering the discussion. If not, that's your choice.

Sarus · Aug 13, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

I enjoy threads where people have to resort to claiming that they know how smart I am, or what I know, becuase they can't even start to make thier own opinionated argument.

Well I wasn't going to bring it up but if you need me to prove that you don't know what you're talking about then I guess I'll go ahead and do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

I find myself unable to use putrid or wells since most people hit the conjure minion button like redial

First off ... the skills aren't "conjure xxx" but "animate xxx". There are 3 of them for necros to choose from.

Animate Bone Fiend
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Minions

Beleive it or not, all three of these "conjure" minion skills have a 3 second cast time. Putrid Explosion on the other hand has a 1 second cast time. Thus your argument that you are unable to use putrid because other necros are hitting the "conjure minion button like redial" seems a little off. I mean ... how in the world are they able to cast a 3 second spell before you can cast a 1 second spell? I'd just like to know. Cause either you don't know what you're talking about or you have the reflexes of a three-toed sloth which by the way you can learn about here

Back on the topic of balancing putrid. I think the real issue is that purtrid requires no thought or skill to use. As people have mentioned before you just have to smash on the button as fast as you can or have a game controller do it for you. One possible solution is to have putrid cost energy even when it fails. Sort of like using inspired hex on a target with no hex on them. You could even double or triple the penalty of using putrid when no corpose is around. Thus if you attempted to just slam on the putrid button you would quickly be out of energy. That doesn't solve the problem of putrid effectively nullifying the use of any other necro corpse exploitation skills but at least it'll mean you have to think about when you need to use putrid.

The big problem is if you add a cooldown to putrid then it becomes pretty worthless. Putrid is only good when you manage to chain it. I suppose you could run it on multiple characters but I really don't see that happening since to get the maximum effect out of putrid you really need your death magic pumped up to max. Simply adding a 5 or 10 second cooldown on putrid would effectively make it useless in my opinion. I don't think it would be a good idea to "balance" putrid by essentially removing it from the game. To be fair though if you did nerf putrid it would open up the use of more skills than you lost.

Cyan · Aug 13, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

Don't you dare even come here and act like you are the most high and mighty God of war. Just because you fail to see the logic in design and the changes across the board does not make me an idiot or biased. It means that I obviously see things differently based on what you think you know about the proof or lack there of.

No, you make yourself look like an idiot. You're the one who thinks hes the God of War here bashing everyone for expressing their opinions on the matter. What happened to the constructive criticism? You refuse to see the logic in people's arguements and worse yet, you give reasons why you are correct that involve nothing more than a childish "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude. You continually state that you know soooo much about the game so then prove it and stop bitching and complaining about how people think there is something wrong with the putrid explosion skill. IF you want to prove your point then go ahead and BACK UP YOUR ARGUEMENTS with something more than "I can name sooo many skills that can be used over putrid explosion" and then never naming them when people call you out on it. Follow the Nike slogan and JUST DO IT.

You have EVERYTHING to prove in this thread since you're the one starting this flamefest and you've contributed nothing other than terrible attempts at bashing people. You still havn't supported any of your arguements. There is nothing wrong with you seeing things differently, but you can't honestly expect people to understand your viewpoint when you don't seem to understand it yourself.

The undead Mesmer · Aug 13, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

stop stop stop this is going the wrong way this is starting to be one of the most flamed threads if ever seen lets yust finish this with this

putrid explosion yust a normal skill that does what it should do dont nerf it or annything

CASE CLOSED

ooh god would be funny if i could close threads

Scaphism · Aug 13, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The undead Mesmer

stop stop stop this is going the wrong way this is starting to be one of the most flamed threads if ever seen lets yust finish this with this

putrid explosion yust a normal skill that does what it should do dont nerf it or annything

CASE CLOSED

ooh god would be funny if i could close threads

First you have to demonstrate a solid understanding of the English language. A good understanding of Guild Wars wouldn't hurt either.

arredondo · Aug 13, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Honestly, I still don't see why using skills to beat skills isn't seen as infinitely better than nerf requests. I said it earlier and didn't see any objections. Why not have a Mesmer (or Mesmer subclass) take care of all these complaints about Putrid? With decent Fast Cast points, these ideas can work even with NR on the field:

- Cast Guilt on an enemy Necro when a player nears death. It will interrupt him for you.

- Cast Diversion on him if he's expected to be chaining Putrids. He can get one off, but no more than that for up to a minute.

- Migraine? Archane Conundrum? Both? Yes they can be interrupted under NR like any hex/enchant casting, but that doesn't mean you can't try... that one second Putrid spam attempt becomes four seconds if you can get both of these on him.

- Black Out works too to shut him down for seven seconds, and it isn't affected by NR. Instead of spamming these kind of skills for the perfect nano-second cast opportunity like the Putrid player, you can get them to connect just fine with time to spare if you are on your toes about potential on-field deaths.

I can't see how ideas like this don't help if Putrid spamming is truly a major problem. Nothing is perfect, but then niether is the skill being discussed. Leave the poor Necro alone and go at him with useful tools of your own.

The undead Mesmer · Aug 13, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

-.- i knw much of GW btw and second im from holland not that old and i still go to school to learn english so dont blame me ok yust making fun

Phades · Aug 13, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

The big problem is if you add a cooldown to putrid then it becomes pretty worthless. Putrid is only good when you manage to chain it. I suppose you could run it on multiple characters but I really don't see that happening since to get the maximum effect out of putrid you really need your death magic pumped up to max. Simply adding a 5 or 10 second cooldown on putrid would effectively make it useless in my opinion. I don't think it would be a good idea to "balance" putrid by essentially removing it from the game. To be fair though if you did nerf putrid it would open up the use of more skills than you lost.

Balancing putrid explosion seems to be a bit harder than some other instances within the game. Even if you slowed down putrid explosion in either cast time or recast time, it would merely shift what is used to necrotic transversal to prevent the explosion and you would be right back in button mashing mode. This spell, like sustained enchantments, falls under the short sighted catagory for overal balance. It is bound to happen sure, but all skills need a refresh time and all skills need the ability to fail. The ability to fail doesnt really fall within the realm of spells outside of spellbreaker, obsidian flesh, and the rare instances of prevented interupts or misses with a projectile spell.

It would have been nice if the dev team kept on the path of "overbalancing" certain skill lines and types across all the professions, but it didnt happen. I think they over did it balance wise for stances on warriors, in terms of refresh times. Warriors are rather straight forward playstyles so easy to predict how and when they would be used. Spells can be a little more creative, due to the circumstances that they can be initiated within. I would lump spirits into the spell catagory for the sake of arguement here. This lead to the current state of being that exists within the game now. I think the only way that it will begin to resemble balance across the table s when all the skills begin to reflect their intended counters and similar skills in use time, up time versus down time, cost to use, and conditions for sucess. One easy parallel, would be to compare non-natures renewal enchantment removal versus the majority of monk enchantments and compare them with cost, cast time, and refresh time. Both sides of this equasion have spells doing more more than one effect by default, so it is an easy comparison.

Scaphism · Aug 13, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I can't see how ideas like this don't help if Putrid spamming is truly a major problem. Nothing is perfect, but then niether is the skill being discussed. Leave the poor Necro alone and go at him with useful tools of your own.

The point isn't that there's no way to stop a necro from spamming putrid explosion- as you pointed out, some of those ways will indeed stop him.
My primary concern is that it eliminates other uses for corpses. One skill from the Death line renders the rest of the line useless. My opinion is that Death magic and minions are already bad in PVP, but that's largely besides the point. In the current situation where Putrid exists, the possibility for someone else to discover a different creative use for corpses is gone.

Follow up question: Wouldn't you be better off running putrid explosion yourself, rather than spending the resources trying to shut him down with stopgap measures? (And guilt will not stop him- if you've had it used against you, it interrupts your first cast and steals energy but it doesn't send the skill into recharge- not that it would matter if it did in Putrid's case anyways.)

The point isn't that other professions have no way to stop Putrid Explosion chains- it's that that one skill A) Eliminates corpses from all other necros B) Doesn't require skill to use, either in planning or execution, and C) Is a powerful effect that can and does singlehandedly change the outcome of matches.

inverloch · Aug 13, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

This is depressing. Though Putrid Explosion is a very nice cheap trick, I can't help but be disappointed in the lack of originality necros are allowed to have. Or perhaps... I just need to discover a half-decent build. *sigh* This game is very complicated, you know. My brain is beginning to fry.

Zeru · Aug 13, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Heh, changing Putrid to 10 energy per cast corpse or not would solve a fair bit of the problem here.

I wonder if we'll ever see it changed though. I wonder at this rate, if NR will even get changed

Skyro · Aug 13, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Does anyone else think people are blowing this way out of proportion and easily dismissing ideas because of faulty logic? I remember when people used to say death magic/coprse exploitation skills sucked in pvp because of their ol' logic of "if your using their corpse, you're already winning and don't need it, or if you're using your own team's corpses, it's effect isn't enough to help you win." Then people found putrid to be great in tombs and now people complain they don't have versatility in using their corpse exploitation skills?!?!?

And now that NR is prevalent lots of people use the same logic and try to avoid enchantments and hexes, yet there are still some great ones that can be used effectively under NR. Same logic now applies to putrid in that you are now working within a different set of parameters where corpses are exploited quickly, yet there are many in-game work-arounds to it. Now I must point out most corpse exploitation skills aren't worth to bring in tombs even if putrid wasn't there. Good teams can get to HoH fairly easily, it is actually winning HoH that people build for. And in HoH minions and wells aren't very good at all (except for well of profane). And it's not like you saw wells and minions galore before putrid got popular. So I can easily phrase a question like "is putrid overpowered, or are the other corpse-exploitation skills so underpowered that people don't bother to stop putrid to cast them"? Of course I don't actually believe the other corpse skills are underpowered (except for well of suffering, which is totally outclassed by putrid), but you get my point.

Now consider when do you actually think putrid is cheap. On the hill when chain-casted. That's pretty much it. *Good* teams are spread out as to not be massacred by AoE in all other situations and if you think putrid is overpowered in these cases you need to be shot in the head with some common sense. So looking at it like this, what went wrong? Putrid, or the actual game-design of tombs. By nerfing putrid it nerfs it in ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME and I believe most can agree that it is rarely used outside of tombs. In GvG you can usually get off wells and minions if you so desire.

Tombs is just poorly designed in terms of the balance. That's all that can really be said. Even if you are the best team in a 3-way HoH often times it is still a roll of the dice. Just remember, tombs is not the only form of PvP in the game.

edit: oh yeah, whoever said animate spells are 5 sec to cast needs to actually play a necro before ever sputtering nonsense about the class ever again. It has been changed to 3 sec cast (I believe during the beta days, I forget) ages ago.

The Man · Aug 13, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The undead Mesmer

stop stop stop this is going the wrong way this is starting to be one of the most flamed threads if ever seen lets yust finish this with this

putrid explosion yust a normal skill that does what it should do dont nerf it or annything

CASE CLOSED

ooh god would be funny if i could close threads

The reason a nerf is requested has NOTHING to do with the singular effect of putrid. It has to do with the fact that it negates all other corpse exploitation skills. You are arguing an irrelivant point. I will blame this misconception on the fact that you are still learning english (or at least I hope that's the reason because I've already made a similar post).