Curse

Scaphism · Aug 11, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm saying the people complaining that there have been too many nerfs have no idea what they're talking about.

Before you can even begin that discussion you need to come to it with a bare minimum of facts. That starts with knowing which skills have been changed since release.

You named one. The poster I was addressing hasn't listed any.
In my eyes, it comes down to people who are interested in actively balancing the game versus those who will complain ceaselessly no matter what is done.
One requires taking a critical look at the situation, demonstrating an understanding of the situation, and having the creativity to come up with multiple solutions. Then you have to work to test and implement them. I praise the critical thinkers who can contribute to the balancing process. I have no time for the latter.

RayneEternal · Aug 11, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyro

I am so tempted just to put up my tombs necro build up here but I know my guild would kill me.

Yeah, I probably would. To confirm Skyro's sentiments, the Necro is but one of five offensive characters in the build. Yet his damage counts for far more than 20% of our build's total DPS. Thinking a Necro can't really be used for damage other than Putrid Explosion is extremely near-sighted. Because I enjoy most other Necros being used as 'support' characters, I'm not willing to offer anymore insight.

JJ78 · Aug 12, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

putrid explosion is overpowered. that alone is reason enough to nerf it.

if necros are weak then that is an entirely separate issue and should be dealt with. i'm really tired of this insane logic that just because a class or skill line is weak then that class should have ridiculously overpowered skills to compensate. that is NOT game balance and it is precisely the reason why pvp'ers are quitting this game and have quit other stupidly balanced games in the past.

Stuntastic · Aug 12, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ78

putrid explosion is overpowered. that alone is reason enough to nerf it.

if necros are weak then that is an entirely separate issue and should be dealt with. i'm really tired of this insane logic that just because a class or skill line is weak then that class should have ridiculously overpowered skills to compensate. that is NOT game balance and it is precisely the reason why pvp'ers are quitting this game and have quit other stupidly balanced games in the past.

Putrid is a little overpowered in that it simply evaporates a wide array of corpse exploitation skills, but as many people have stated necro's do have other options than just spamming putrids. Also, I don't see anyone asking for a rediculously overpowered skill.

Iraqalypse Now · Aug 12, 2005, 01:25 AM // 01:25

For the NR problem for necros on orders, if you are running a warrior based build Dark Fury has a 1 second cast rather than 2 seconds, and the extra adren can do quite a lot... fear me spammers, disrupting chop, etc. FGJ + dark fury + frenzy = disrupting chop in under 3 seconds, and I believe can be disrupting chop, penetrating blow, regular attack, disrupting chop, penetrating blow, reg attack, etc.

Putrid spam is a mess, especially since you can run 16 death/9 or 10 SR/ 10 other attribute on secondary class. Thus you could easily run something like putrid explosion, rotting flesh, matyr, plague sending, balthazar's aura, strength of honor, judge's insight, res sig. Drop BA on a war and other buffs, then when the bodies fall putrid chain.

White Designs · Aug 12, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Dark Fury being 1 sec cast time does indeed make it viable, so that's a good point. However, JI and SoH do not work well under NR. JI is a 4 sec cast and SoH you have to reapply to the specific warrior, which can be a pain if he/she has run off.

About the focus of the Necro, it is Putrid Explosion. On this point I will not even consider to change my opinion. That skill is what the Necro does, make sure every corpse that falls deals 120+ damage to all foes in an area. If the Necro doesn't do that well, he's not doing his or her job, period. Nothing else that the Necro can possibly be doing could be worth taking such tremendous damage on a good portion of the team members.

As to what else the Necro does, I still maintain that it is horribly limited. For those of you who think it does tremendous things but won't post what skills you use, well, heck, I'd rather you not post here at all. I'm trying to openly discuss what I believe to be a flaw in the game right now, and frankly, your vague statements about some mysterious uses for Necros which I'm sure I never thought of (note the sarcasm) aren't helping at all. Either back up your statements with facts and examples, or don't post.

Stuntastic · Aug 12, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

As to what else the Necro does, I still maintain that it is horribly limited. For those of you who think it does tremendous things but won't post what skills you use, well, heck, I'd rather you not post here at all. I'm trying to openly discuss what I believe to be a flaw in the game right now, and frankly, your vague statements about some mysterious uses for Necros which I'm sure I never thought of (note the sarcasm) aren't helping at all. Either back up your statements with facts and examples, or don't post.

Lingering Curse, Defile Flesh, Signet of Sacrifice+Well of whatever, chillblains, strip enchantment, blood magic spikes to name some of the more obvious ones people are most likely speaking about when they say Necromancers are not limited to putrids.

Dead Panda · Aug 12, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by icecomet

you could always kill the necro first.. its not that hard.

quoted for emphasis.

Also you can just stay the hell away from corpses. =/

JackOften · Aug 12, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

JackOften looks at the cast times and durations on Rof and Guardian and tell me if anyone spamming these is going to care about NR. Especially since Fast Casting barely effects both of those spells.

Necro hexes that need to last are more than just degends. This includes Barbs, Spiteful Spirit, Soul Barbs, and Weaken Armor just to name a few. All are effected by NR badly and as they were barely playable before they just become worthless.

Aura of Faith, Blessed Aura, Contemplation of Purity, Peace and Harmony, Spellbreaker, Unyielding Aura, Watchful Spirit, Vigorous Spirit, Live Vicariously, Essence Bond, Holy Veil, Succor, Vengeance, Life Attunement, Amity, Vital Blessing, Balthazars Spirit, Balthazars Aura, Holy Wrath, Scourge Healing, Strength of Honor, Zealots Fire.

Yeah, Necros are totally lopsidedly hit by NR. Noone else feels that pain - above list really contains no mildly useful skills that get murdered by NR at all.

Also, Aegis, Gaurdian and MoP all have 1 second cast time. 2 Seconds under Natures - same as a few of the curses that have survived the rise of Natures. As for Weaken Armor, its just the Necros version of Holy Veil

cookiehoarder · Aug 12, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Despite all my arguments I am actually starting to hate NR. As for nerfs, I only think they should make it an elite. As for putrid, a recharge I would not mind

White Designs · Aug 12, 2005, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Dead Panda, learn to read before posting trash.

JackOften, a lot of those skills already suck without NR, and besides, the Monk still has a large variety of skills to choose from, although it is limited somewhat by NR, no one denies that.

The Necro however, has an entire line pretty much go to trash, not to mention key parts of other lines be rendered ineffective also.

Maagus · Aug 12, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Well, I think that putrid is easy to avoid unless you are camping (also the camping at your priest is half-way to lose if you are not experienced spirit spam + wards team). I don´t think it needs longer recast time.

Glasswalker · Aug 12, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

As a blood necro, I couldn't care less about NR, and I don't carry Putrid (And I am still effective, thank you very much). It is only worthwhile if the enemy are gathered around the dying victim. Sure, on the dias that happens. But more fun is when the spirit spammers think they are safe behind their body-blocking spirits, and your W/N Necrotic Traversals behind enemy lines before they can res the guy you were focusing on. Panic often ensues, and those spirits are now keeping the bad guys IN instead of keeping you OUT.

That's worth more than 120 apiece. And it is faster than Putrid. Besides, you know when and who will cast Putrid, interupt him. There's a whole second in there.

NR, I'm willing to be convinced on. But I'm sorry, I'm not seeing this. Of course, if it did get a serious cool down I wouldn't care either. Note to all: Don't stand on top of corpses. And if you are walled in by spirits, I don't feel all too sorry for you.

manveruppd · Aug 12, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I don't see why this is such an issue: I've played in tombs many times, and most teams I've faced don't have a Necro at all, and the only time I've seen Putrid used there was once when *I* took it!

I've often had 3 Wells going on at the same time in Tombs matches, that's how much freedom I have to exploit corpses! I only worry about corpse denial from resurrecting monks tbh, and then only for the 2nd or 3rd corpse!!

I understand that most of you are Americans, and I play on European servers instead (where Necros are considered pretty useless and Death Necros an actual liability and it's hell trying to find a PUG!), but Tombs matches happen internationally and in 3-way or bigger matches there's usually AT LEAST one American and one Korean team in addition to other Europeans.

The Man · Aug 12, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

There are a ridiculous amount of people posting on this forum that think the request to nerf putrid has to do with it being a broken skill by itself. This is addressed to all of you. Everyone with 1/2 a brain understands this "don't stand on corpes" shit, and knows perfectly well how to beat a putrid necro. And FYI putrid occurs immediately after a corpse hits the ground--thus, you are either there when it dies or you are not.

This request for nerf is excatly the same the request to nerf NR: it makes so many skills/builds unusable. Every other corpse exploitation (excluding Necrotic Traversal) has a longer cast time--thus voiding its usefullness. I exclude Necrotic Transversal due to its rareness and due to the fact that it doesn't deserve a skill slot in 95% of builds.

So, please, make sure you understand the reasoning behind the opposing argument before posting irrelevant garbage.

Bewb carcass · Aug 13, 2005, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

To put it simply, I hate this skill so much, almost as much as I despise Nature's Renewal. Why? Because Putrid is setup in a way where 1.) it takes no skill to use it 2.) it renders lots of other nice skills useless and 3.) It forces every team to take a Necro when there is so much other room for variability otherwise.

First, it shouldn't really be disputed that Putrid doesn't take skill. Its simply who has the turbo controller to mash the button down continuously or who wants to break his or her keyboard fastest.

Secondly, since Putrid is so absurdly fast, nearly every other corpse skill is rendered useless. Some nice skills like Well of the Profane or even Well of Power, which could be put to stategic use, are now completly unusuable, since a Necro with putrid will simply blow the corpse away first. Necrotic Transveral is technically faster, but putrid is fast enough that the only difference is that the turbo-controller will now be set on mash down Necrotic. Also, Putrid has a large effect, Necrotic has no effect, so why would anyone use it?

Quite frankly, I am sick of having to put a necro in every viable build I design. In my opinion, I should not have to take a class with a otherwise near-useless primary attribute in every team I make just for one skill. I find that ridiculous. And while some might say this is similiar to needing monks on every team, I find that very different, since I often have versatility to switch between running 2, 3 or 4 monks per team, and a monk has a lot of flexibility towards contributing to the team. For example, I can run energy drain monks in a denial build, or monks with storm chaser in a ranger team with conflag/winter, etc. The necro is comparison, is horribly limited, which makes having to devote a slot to it even worse. Pretty much every necro is Tainted Flesh/Rotting Flesh/Putrid Explosion.

Putrid is so messed up in tombs that I contend that if every other necro skill in the game were removed, there would still be a strong case for every team running a putrid necro, res sig, and 6 skills from the secondary...that's just wrong.

Now, please don't take this post as a whine or complaining about 'not being able to beat a necro.' It's not. I run a putrid necro every time. I try to adapt it to doing other things but the horrible primary attribute severely limits it. I just want to bring to light something which I think although not as bad as Nature's Renewal, is similiar in how it deprives variety in tombs. And I want to hear what other people think about this. Thank you.

Forcing a team to take a necro into tombs in never a bad thing. However the fact that it forces the necro to play a certain way is a bad thing.

Vusak · Aug 13, 2005, 10:42 AM // 10:42

persistent aoe hp/nrg regen/degen or enchantment removal is quite powerful, especially in altar matches where funnily enough - putrid is quite powerful too, even more so when you consider these effects are often hex/enchant based and dont survive NR - whereas the wells do survive under NR.

getting a well up is fairly straight forward if your keeping an eye on health bars, a glyph can take care of things, or alternatively you just target that single necro in the enemy line with a decent interrupter and have your team necro do his well thing.

putrid supercedes wells in a single skill vs. single skill situation. however thats just utter bs, as tombs is 8v8.

think about the significance of having a well of profane on the altar in hoh. any other ghost is basically screwed vs. a competent team. further it means that more corpses are likely to appear nearby - more opportunities to have profane up longer.

that kind of power comes at a cost - having the foresight to see the letter 'N' in an enemies primary and having one of your interrupters prevent the expected putrid...its not friggin rocket science guys.

im not so sure well of blood is quite as significant, well of suffering is iffy, i think well of power is still fairly significant in this situation.

so maybe tweak the cast times of the various wells, giving blood and suffering 1 less second cast time might help.

but still - the point in comparing one skill directly and only with another - and then claiming that any attempt to add context is circumventing the issue is just bs.

manveruppd · Aug 13, 2005, 01:44 PM // 13:44

OT: Well of Power's energy regen isn't that great - rather than sacrifice my elite slot, I'd much rather carry Well of Blood and Blood Ritual (or Blood is Power).

I still don't understand why it's such an issue for you guys: as I said, in dozens of Tombs matches I've only once seen a Necro with Putrid! I've never ONCE failed to get a well up due to corpse denial.

And, yes, Well of Suffering is very iffy: it's like a Fire Storm with less total damage spread over a longer duration, but it costs the same amount of energy AND needs a corpse! Now, if it also slowed enemies, so they'd have trouble getting out of its large radius of effect, or perhaps if everyone entering its radius lost one enchantment, then we'd have a more tactically useful alternative to Putrid for corpse usage.
Another iffy one is Consume Corpse. Even at the highest level, you never gain back as much energy as you use to cast it, and health recovered is less than half of what Soul Feast gives you. What's that all about?
(Then again, if corpse-using spells were buffed, then people would have even more reason to carry around Putrid with them solely for corpse-denial!

)

Krack Jacker · Aug 13, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

stuff like this makes someone like me who is pure pve never wanna change to pvp. Cause of how stupid tombs is getting just like this and spaming other stuff like natures renewal. Where has all the strategic battle planning and cordination gone.....

The undead Mesmer · Aug 13, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

sorry to be rude but WTF putrid isnt a that good skill its yust a few damage thats all stop whining and start playing.