Curse

White Designs · Aug 11, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

To put it simply, I hate this skill so much, almost as much as I despise Nature's Renewal. Why? Because Putrid is setup in a way where 1.) it takes no skill to use it 2.) it renders lots of other nice skills useless and 3.) It forces every team to take a Necro when there is so much other room for variability otherwise.

First, it shouldn't really be disputed that Putrid doesn't take skill. Its simply who has the turbo controller to mash the button down continuously or who wants to break his or her keyboard fastest.

Secondly, since Putrid is so absurdly fast, nearly every other corpse skill is rendered useless. Some nice skills like Well of the Profane or even Well of Power, which could be put to stategic use, are now completly unusuable, since a Necro with putrid will simply blow the corpse away first. Necrotic Transveral is technically faster, but putrid is fast enough that the only difference is that the turbo-controller will now be set on mash down Necrotic. Also, Putrid has a large effect, Necrotic has no effect, so why would anyone use it?

Quite frankly, I am sick of having to put a necro in every viable build I design. In my opinion, I should not have to take a class with a otherwise near-useless primary attribute in every team I make just for one skill. I find that ridiculous. And while some might say this is similiar to needing monks on every team, I find that very different, since I often have versatility to switch between running 2, 3 or 4 monks per team, and a monk has a lot of flexibility towards contributing to the team. For example, I can run energy drain monks in a denial build, or monks with storm chaser in a ranger team with conflag/winter, etc. The necro is comparison, is horribly limited, which makes having to devote a slot to it even worse. Pretty much every necro is Tainted Flesh/Rotting Flesh/Putrid Explosion.

Putrid is so messed up in tombs that I contend that if every other necro skill in the game were removed, there would still be a strong case for every team running a putrid necro, res sig, and 6 skills from the secondary...that's just wrong.

Now, please don't take this post as a whine or complaining about 'not being able to beat a necro.' It's not. I run a putrid necro every time. I try to adapt it to doing other things but the horrible primary attribute severely limits it. I just want to bring to light something which I think although not as bad as Nature's Renewal, is similiar in how it deprives variety in tombs. And I want to hear what other people think about this. Thank you.

Jake · Aug 11, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

agreed, this spell needs a recast delay and/or higher cast time.

ComMan · Aug 11, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Are you calling for nerf to NECROS?

White Designs · Aug 11, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I'd much rather have a buff to necros, note how I said how horribly limited and otherwise pathetic they were, and then a major nerfing of putrid.

aeroclown · Aug 11, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Totally disagree. Im sorry, but If you have a necro and you do know how to use it this is no even an issue. In fact in most cases I find myself unable to use putrid or wells since most people hit the conjure minion button like redial. Exactly the Reason to learn How to effectively use other skills, instead of crying for a nerf or a buff.

There is no reason to change the way any of The spells work. Just don't pick up necros that use skills like they are redialing a 900 hundred number. Nerfing skills and all the delays in the world will not help a party that has poor comunications and strategy. If you can't make the necros in your team play by your rules then don't keep them in your party. I realize thats not always an option when you are in the middle of a mission, but for the love of God Enough with the want to nerf suggestions already. Nerfing is not the answer.

People cried for nerfs to stop farming they got it, Now all they can do is complain that it is nerfed.

thats my 2 cents anyway. I would rather not see a nerf.

Skyro · Aug 11, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

First, Soul Reaping rocks. Period. Especially in tombs. It triggers whenever ANYTHING dies, even spirits, which are abundant in tombs. It's a huge mana engine that doesn't require a (probably elite) skill slot.

Secondly if you play a necros by just turbo mashing putrid then no wonder you hate the skill/necros so much, you suck at them. Mashing putrid would just make you sit there and do nothing until a corpse falls. It takes skill to be using all your other skills on your bar and being able to react to a death and time a putrid inbetween your current actions. Although from what you think of necros I'm positive your just a necro-outsider looking in.

Lastly your statement about monks makes absolutely no sense. Versatility between 2-4 monks?!?! You just admit right there that you need at least 2 monks in any viable build where you only need 1 necro to putrid effectively. And that's even if you want 1 necro, you can still pick up putrid on a secondarly necro since it is more for corpse denial that pure damage. It won't be nearly as effective since soul reaping allows for chain-cast putrids but if you don't want to "waste" a slot on a necro primary it is definintely viable. But you seriously, seriously, undervalue the necro class as a whole.

Silmor · Aug 11, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

aeroclown, compare the casttime between the animation skills and putrid explosion, then hit edit on your post and try to save face. As for the rest of your post, reading comprehension is a nice thing, try to read the OP a few more times to learn the issue isn't 'noob necros' taking along the same three skills at all, the issue is with the nature of tombs right now forcing teams to take a primary necro with putrid, and since death magic is best pumped high for that anyway tainted flesh is a logical afterthought. If you don't take putrid explosion, you'll get it used against you, and you'll be at an unacceptable disadvantage.

Skyro, the point why you want a primary necro for putrid spamming actually is soul reaping, since every death will pay ahead for the putrid cast, allowing you to mash it continuously. A non-primary necro won't always have energy available to cast, or will be depleted after a few corpses. It's the rare occasion where soul reaping actually activates exactly when you want it to, and it's in an undesireable (braindead) form.

White Designs · Aug 11, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyro

First, Soul Reaping rocks. Period. Especially in tombs. It triggers whenever ANYTHING dies, even spirits, which are abundant in tombs. It's a huge mana engine that doesn't require a (probably elite) skill slot.

Secondly if you play a necros by just turbo mashing putrid then no wonder you hate the skill/necros so much. Mashing putrid would just make you sit there and do nothing until a corpse falls. It takes skill to be using all your other skills on your bar and being able to react to a death and time a putrid inbetween your current actions.

Lastly your statement about monks makes absolutely no sense. Versatility between 2-4 monks?!?! You just admit right there that you need at least 2 monks in any viable build where you only need 1 necro to putrid effectively. And that's even if you want 1 necro, you can still pick up putrid on a secondarly necro since it is more for corpse denial that pure damage. It won't be nearly as effective since soul reaping allows for chain-cast putrids but if you don't want to "waste" a slot on a necro primary it is definintely viable. But you seriously, seriously, undervalue the necro class as a whole.

The last thing I want to do is argue about Soul Reaping again...sheesh, there has been enough in these forums about that. So let's just agree to disagree or whatever.

Secondly, if you are casting something else and a corpse dies, there is no way that against even a semi-decent team you can putrid, and then bam! it will generally be over 120 damage to a decent amount of your team members. Any good necro knows that the main thing they need to do is cast spells when they think a corpse won't fall, then mash the putrid button to explode corpses for tremendous effect.

About the monk thing, the fact that you need monks really isn't the same thing here. Like I pointed out, the monks in most cases are tailored towards the team setup and have flexibility within their skillsets. Running QZ? Take Energy Drain for fast draining on the monks? Using Greater Conflag? Run a E/Mo Prot Monk with Ward Against Harm for tremendous defense, that is very versatile.

Compare that to a necro. A necro putrids in tombs, anything else is just a mere bonus. The necro's job is to mash putrid, and the entire rest of the skillbar is tailored to allow for putrid use. Doesn't leave many options.

aeroclown · Aug 11, 2005, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

aeroclown, compare the casttime between the animation skills and putrid explosion, then hit edit on your post and try to save face. As for the rest of your post, reading comprehension is a nice thing, try to read the OP a few more times to learn the issue isn't 'noob necros' taking along the same three skills at all, the issue is with the nature of tombs right now forcing teams to take a primary necro with putrid, and since death magic is best pumped high for that anyway tainted flesh is a logical afterthought. If you don't take putrid explosion, you'll get it used against you, and you'll be at an unacceptable disadvantage.

Why don't you take your own advice, since there are probably 15 to 30 skills that work in the same manor and fashion. Then you can hit edit and save your own face, because mine is perfectly fine. Oh or would you like Arena Net To Nerf all those to Because someone found a way to use it effectively in a build, oh wait thats right they already did, now you have found a new one to cry about.

Silmor · Aug 11, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Feel free to name them. I'll settle for 10.

Zeru · Aug 11, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Necros have so little uses in tombs now it's sad (and they really are limited in gvg too).

BiP gets owned by Fertile (huge health sacrifices just makes it not worth it after a point).
Orders get owned by Renewal
Curses line gets owned by Renewal (Defile Flesh/Faintheartedness are the lone hex exceptions)
Wells get owned by Putrid
Everything else sucked in the first place

Putrid is very strong on altars, tainted/rotting is okay, rend is good, Enfeebling blood is still decent, and Offering still rocks. Oh yay.

And yeah the putrid mashing is just stupid. It would be much better if the spell cost was calculated in every time you hit your putrid button, even if there was no corpse. That way it would purely be reflexes/awareness and not luck as to who gets the first putrid off as spamming the putrid button will murder your energy.

As for putrid being needed as a problem; I think it's the map design itself. Tombs really is in need of an overhaul.

Quote:

In fact in most cases I find myself unable to use putrid or wells since most people hit the conjure minion button like redial.

Hi, I'm logic. Don't ignore me!

Putrid Cast time 1s
Well Cast time 2 and 3s
Animinate minion/fiend/horror cast time 3s
Necrotic Transversal 3/4s

aeroclown · Aug 11, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

So I guess Learning how To actually use other skills effectively is just a foolish idea. And the concept of laying down a nerf or a buff to make it easier on you in the current state of strategy is some how more of an appealing concept.

right.

/not signed

I'm tired of nerfing skills.

Aug 11, 2005, 02:05 AM // 02:05

aeroclown can you just stop sounding stupid

JackOften · Aug 11, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

BiP gets owned by Fertile (huge health sacrifices just makes it not worth it after a point).

Lots of teamwork tricks to make sacrificing very, very harmless even with Fertile up.

Quote:

Orders get owned by Renewal

Orders have between a 5-13 second duration - if you're getting owned by renewal with them, you might want to consider opening your eyes while playing Guild Wars.

Quote:

Curses line gets owned by Renewal (Defile Flesh/Faintheartedness are the lone hex exceptions)

Right, nobody ever uses Rigor Mortis. Why would they. Gets totally owned by Renewal, except theres no hex to remove when your target is frickin dead. Tons more in the curse line that work similiarly - a well-timed curse for 5 to 10 seconds is more than plenty.

Quote:

Wells get owned by Putrid

Glyph of shut up please, err sacrifice for the nasty ones (profane) or just Me/N, durr.

Quote:

Putrid is very strong on altars, tainted/rotting is okay, rend is good, Enfeebling blood is still decent, and Offering still rocks. Oh yay.

Sorry for taking you seriously up to this point. Obviously you're just trying to be funny.

Zeru · Aug 11, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Here's the problem with BiP/Fertile.

Your health is going to be boosted between 750-900 or so with a strong fertile.

33% of that is monstrous (no prot spirit does not affect it) 250-300 hp.

You need an orison and Heal Other or word to fix that. 1 BiP gives 24 energy with 20% enchants and costs 5 (7 with qz) so it's 19/17 net energy. That's some great net gain. BiP isn't terrible but it's not worth it in the current metagame.

If it's a weak Fertile 1 Heal other will fix it (possibly a word too) but that's still crap net energy, and you have to spend time healing the necro who is draining your energy more than you like with the sacrifices.

Quote:

Orders have between a 5-13 second duration - if you're getting owned by renewal with them, you might want to consider opening your eyes while playing Guild Wars.

Hi, read the skill description? Orders last 5 seconds, 6 with 20% enchant mods.

Under nature renewal they take 4 seconds to cast. Do the math, it's not hard.

For curses, you're spending 4 seconds casting something that's likely to get interrupted (many ranger heavy teams out there in the meta-game make this quite an issue) and otherwise removed in a couple seconds. Rigor is not terrible but it's not great either: it screams 'they're going to hit me' almost as badly as lingering and will get removed in several seconds anyway. If they didn't take 4 seconds to cast or longer (like lingering) and weren't so absurdly easy to remove they wouldn't be bad at all.

Quote:

Glyph of shut up please, err sacrifice for the nasty ones (profane) or just Me/N, durr.

Me/N is prohibitve because you can't chain at all. Not to say it's terrible but it's just sidestepping the issue anyway.

It's not a half bad idea if healing balls would be predominant (the current healing balls just suck, no biggie) but NR prohibits this. I could definitely see this being a possibility as an anti-healing ball counter as it will strip the seed/bonds quite nicely.

The problem is that...you don't know when a corpse will die until it happens. You can guess but if you don't you're going to have to either sit there for awhile not casting anything till the glyph wears out or you need to waste a spell so you can cast normally again. If you do this when the corpse dies you'll still get owned anyway by putrid because it's a 1 s cast+.75 aftercast before you can cast WotP. The other wells aren't worth it for doing this anyway. Best thing I could see would be to have someone suicide so that you will be ready to pull it off. But again, you have to be mashing the WotP key or you'll lose to putrid anyway which is half the point of this thread.

Thomasuwoo · Aug 11, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

They'll both be nerfed soon. No doubt putrid will reacive a 3 seccond cooldown and Natures will be made elite.
While you're waiting for the nerf glpyh of sacrice is about the only way to beat a putrid necro to a corpse.

Our pet team targets necros as much as monks now. We Originaly didn't have putrid Explosion in the build but we quickly learnt either use it, Or have it used on you.

White Designs · Aug 11, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Ah, I wish I could believe you Thomasawu, but recently what ArenaNet has been doing is not exactly encouraging.

Thomasuwoo · Aug 11, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

They do Limit Gameplay too much. While they CAN be countered (Diversion for necro, Massive interupts for the Natures) They are just slighty too powerful. Anet have addressed these issues in the past and I'm sure they will again. I guess they're going to impiment ALOT of new changes with the Summer Update.

arredondo · Aug 11, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Why not have a Mesmer cast Guilt on a Necro when a target nears death? Either that or Diversion if he's expected to be chaining PEs. Not a perfect solution, but with decent Fast Cast points, a key hex here and there still has some value in circumstances like these.

Stuntastic · Aug 11, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

My guild (No Silence) currently runs a build in tombs that has successfully holds halls for a pretty reasonable amount of time and has no Necromancer. Sure we might get hurt by putrid from time to time but the extra dps and interrupts of another damage dealer makes for a more effective build. That's not to say Necro's can only putrid, because warrior builds with Lingering, Defile, etc. can time a spike to the extent that natures won't effect it.

Also it's rather easy to time a Glyph of Sacrifice/Well if your team is coordinated enough to know when they will take down a target. However, I do agree it needs a moderately extended recast time giving other corpse exploitation skills a fighting chance.