Curse

carnivore · Aug 13, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

i dont see how you can keep naming warrior secondary advantages as if just 1 warrior can do all this.

Elementist: conjure element, ok u'll be able to do 1 of these in a fight
Monk: judges insight, same
Ranger: apply poison, same

so that leaves mesmer and necro. and i think these combos can be very energy effecient. mesmers have very nice 5 energy skills, like power leak energy tap, inspired hex and even energy drain. necromancers have some decent curses and other spells.

so i think w/me and w/n can easily keep fighting while placing in some spells.

a r/w however doesnt have access to any of this, true, but so what. it can do its job just fine. apply poison, constant tigers fury, galrath, and final thrust are good damage outputs. throw in gladiators defense for the situations when u are 1on1 and u need the damage boost+blocks. i usually play a r/w with the skills i just mentioned and just throw in a rez sig and a healing method. and lastly put in a hamstring for the runners. this is for random arenas anyway

as for tombs and gvg, id have to say only a r/w hammer could be useful. i play a sword r/w just for fun so i really dont care that i could be dealing much better damage with a w/*. i can take most characters on in random or team pvp and thats fine with me.

and about the whole "spam energy intensive skills" i do spam energy intensive skills, applypoison and tigers fury. they have a decent energy cost and i try to keep them up most of the time. but other than that, most energy warrior attacks are under strength, which has been mentioned before, and that throws that arguement out the window.

and the fact that this argument has gone on for so long, i must say most r/w are proud and even arragont. very few people have even considered letting this be and walking away, just keep posting and posting and posting.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Its cus theres so many R/Ws and they all suck. Its as bad as a Monk using mending. Someones gotta (try) to talk some sense into them.

If they dont get it by now, though, after I and others have clearly explained how completely inferior a R/W is in nearly every facet of play, they never will. Its probably like you said- they are too proud.

A couple things that R/W people should understand and accept (but somehow stubbornly refuse all reason)

1. Frenzy is good in PvP
2. Strength > Expertise
3. Its not like warriors have 0 energy and no regen. They are capable of using their energy attacks.
4. Stonefist Gauntlets are important
5. No matter how slick a R/W gets with energy attacks, pets, spirits, etc, he will never contribute as much to a team as a war/** hammer or axe.

carnivore · Aug 13, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

yea i have seen some real crappy r/ws. i was once on a random team with 3 of them on it. 1 resorted to constantly running from a warrior, another died, and i ended up being torchered by a necro/mesmer(a very big weakness of r/ws). thats when i really realized how popular this was and thats when i stepped away for a bit. anyway, how about we agree the best way to talk sense into them is for all the pro warriors to hit the arenas and just own them hm? i mean really, do we need a 140 posts over this?

Tuna · Aug 13, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

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Originally Posted by ICURADik

Prot Spirit is 1/4 second cast time with 5 second recharge... In the battle between NR and Prot Spirit, I think it's obivous who wins.

Wait wait, how much does prot spirit cost? Oh right, it costs 10 energy. Monks have <50. I'm sure you can do the math. Besides its common knowledge that enchants>warriors(or anything with weapon attacks). If you run warriors its crucial to have enchant removeal. Why do you think people run NR + warriors? Its not for giggles I'll tell you that.

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I'm not sure if you read my next post, but I explained it quite well. When you both get reduced to 45 damage(the average target has 455 hp, not 480) attacking faster is the only thing to increase damage. Along with the extra 5 from a Vampiric Mod, which is much easier to use on a R/W.

Frenzy is just as easy to use as tigers fury. I've played plenty of high ranked people spamming 24/7 frenzy and hardly EVER get spiked. Its better to try and kill a monk than hope you can kill the warrior before frenzy runs out.

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Monks aren't expecting their warriors to be spiked. 90% of the time they are watching their own ass, or healing another monk. Two ele's spiking a warrior for 170 immediately followed by 85 is 510 damage in 1.75 seconds. Even good monk have trouble reacting that fast.

Warriors have this cute thing called armor. You won't hit a warrior for 170 dmg WITH frenzy on. 1.75 sec is more than enough for 1 word of healing or this prot spirit that you are always talking about. Basically, if you have good monks your warrior won't die. Maybe organized obsidian flame with 4-5 people or something would do it.

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Bolded the important part. How exactly do you expect to break thru Ward/Aegis/Guardian/Etc? Warrior's Cunning is the only other decent way to accomplish this, and it works alright with QZ to help with recharge. But the energy cost and recast time once again make the overall build do worse damage. You can't constantly chain Irresistible Blow on any W/? unless you are gimping yourself in another way.

Wards are a pain, I'll give you that. However, they are limited by radius, so if you're running a lot of warriors it would be worth your time to draw them out. Aegis guardian etc. are all solved by the aforementioned enchant removal. Warriors cunning is for situations where something absolutely HAS to die without waiting for removes. Its also really handy for stances since they have about the same length.

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So let me see. Your talking about NR owning a skill with 1/4 cast timeand 5 recharge, yet a skill with 2 second cast time and 10 recharge is useable?... by a warrior? I don't know about you, but the 3 hits I get with my R/W in the 4.75seconds it takes you to cast Judge's Insight will more than make up the lack of armor penetration.

Remember energy costs when you talk about skills, they are important. The only skill that without fail can stop a warrior with minimal extra healing is reversal of fortune. I'm not a big fan of JI, more of a weaken armor person myself, however, they both get pwned by NR.

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With Tiger's Fury I can Devestating, Irresistible Blow, and Heavy Blow all in a row without the target healing, unless it is a 1/4 second skill.

Yay, exactly the same as a primary warrior except less damage and no buffs!

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You seem really good at playing theory craft. Those 150 damage hits may look nice on noobs. But good teams SPAM Prot Spirit. It simply doesn't happen man.

150 dmg doesn't come up all that often

Jake · Aug 13, 2005, 03:33 AM // 03:33

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Originally Posted by ICURADik

Frenzy is 8 seconds. Warrior's usually start battle with it... It's not hard to coordinate at all.

What the hell? I surely hope you're joking. Be more biased.

Quintus · Aug 13, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I will mention that apply poinon is one of the worst things possible for a melee type to use. It GIVES the enemy HP if the have ANY sort of condition removal. Any half witted team has plenty of that.
[Snip]
Cannot use chant buffs like conjure or JI.

Couldn't it also be said that any "half witted team" will have plenty of enchantment removal?

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Originally Posted by loc87

i have one question ... why is everyone (or most people) assuming that a r/w is only used to do melee DPS?

I wish someone would answer this.

Tuna · Aug 13, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

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Originally Posted by Quintus

I wish someone would answer this.

Because nobody would make a thread about how bad bow weilding rangers with frenzy are.

Arri · Aug 13, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Its cus theres so many R/Ws and they all suck. Its as bad as a Monk using mending. Someones gotta (try) to talk some sense into them.

If they dont get it by now, though, after I and others have clearly explained how completely inferior a R/W is in nearly every facet of play, they never will. Its probably like you said- they are too proud.

A couple things that R/W people should understand and accept (but somehow stubbornly refuse all reason)

1. Frenzy is good in PvP
2. Strength > Expertise
3. Its not like warriors have 0 energy and no regen. They are capable of using their energy attacks.
4. Stonefist Gauntlets are important
5. No matter how slick a R/W gets with energy attacks, pets, spirits, etc, he will never contribute as much to a team as a war/** hammer or axe.

So all of a sudden Neo-LD is master of all things guildwars, and if all the R/Ws don't reroll they will be banned? Sorry Neo, but thats not the way the world works, accept that there WILL be bad R/Ws, and move on, have you seen W/Mos using mending? Yet theres nothing wrong with that? Seriously, if a monk is bad if they use mending, wouldn't a W/Mo be 5x as bad? Why use mending when you can use healing hands and healing breeze right? Might as well try and tell ALL W/Mos to stop using mending

Tuna · Aug 13, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Theres nothing wrong with being a r/w. You'll still be able to skill things and so on, just unless you're running something strange your warrior counterpart will generally be better. If you take it to the context of pvp the warrior counterpart will always be better. Same as the point you brought up with mending. You CAN use it in pvp, but people will laugh at you.

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Wait wait, how much does prot spirit cost? Oh right, it costs 10 energy. Monks have <50. I'm sure you can do the math. Besides its common knowledge that enchants>warriors(or anything with weapon attacks). If you run warriors its crucial to have enchant removeal. Why do you think people run NR + warriors? Its not for giggles I'll tell you that.

Ok.. so 10 energy? I see no point. Chain Lightning cost 10 energy, along with numerous other spells.

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Frenzy is just as easy to use as tigers fury. I've played plenty of high ranked people spamming 24/7 frenzy and hardly EVER get spiked. Its better to try and kill a monk than hope you can kill the warrior before frenzy runs out.

With the same high level people, you never see R/W?

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Warriors have this cute thing called armor. You won't hit a warrior for 170 dmg WITH frenzy on. 1.75 sec is more than enough for 1 word of healing or this prot spirit that you are always talking about. Basically, if you have good monks your warrior won't die. Maybe organized obsidian flame with 4-5 people or something would do it.

Chain hits for 170+ on a hammer warrior using Frenzy. I could do the math for you and/or post a SS if you like.

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Wards are a pain, I'll give you that. However, they are limited by radius, so if you're running a lot of warriors it would be worth your time to draw them out. Aegis guardian etc. are all solved by the aforementioned enchant removal. Warriors cunning is for situations where something absolutely HAS to die without waiting for removes. Its also really handy for stances since they have about the same length.

I don't know of any skills that physically moves an enemy.

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Remember energy costs when you talk about skills, they are important. The only skill that without fail can stop a warrior with minimal extra healing is reversal of fortune. I'm not a big fan of JI, more of a weaken armor person myself, however, they both get pwned by NR.

Yay, exactly the same as a primary warrior except less damage and no buffs!

150 dmg doesn't come up all that often

I still don'tunderstand the point of this whole post. The fact remains with NR/QZ up prot spirit can still be cast quite often. And the warrior primary spamming Irresistible Blow easily runs out of energy. In light of these facts don't expect to hit for 50+damage very often, or be able to use Irresistible Blow every other attack.

I really would appreciate it if when you quote me that you do not use generalized terms. It seems like the last 3-4 people replying use the word "warrior" with out saying "hammer warrior". I want to make it clear... An Axe warrior makes much more sense on a warrior primary. Hammer is simply a different story.

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 06:37 AM // 06:37

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Originally Posted by carnivore

yea i have seen some real crappy r/ws. i was once on a random team with 3 of them on it. 1 resorted to constantly running from a warrior, another died, and i ended up being torchered by a necro/mesmer(a very big weakness of r/ws). thats when i really realized how popular this was and thats when i stepped away for a bit. anyway, how about we agree the best way to talk sense into them is for all the pro warriors to hit the arenas and just own them hm? i mean really, do we need a 140 posts over this?

Warrior primaries are just as vulnerable to Nec's and Mes's as a ranger primary.

Allatu · Aug 13, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I do not know why I even bother trying to convince scubs like you.

Because you have a giant ego and cannot resist?

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Taking every single point you made one at a time:

Appartently you got sleepy and forgot half of them?

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Strength gives bonus to all attack skills. Thats fine, any decent warrior should be using one of those on every other attack. You also forgot (conveniantly) to adress the poit that warriors deal 15% extra damage per attack for free with their 16 point weapon attribute.

I don't have to address that point. I never asserted that either build was better. I only attacked what was blatantly false.

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Sure, you go ahead and waste points in wilderness

You don't have to put a single point in wilderness survival to keep poison up on a single enemy.

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and 3-4 skill slots on a pet.

For an extra 12 DPS, +33% attack rate buff, being able to cause bleeding with an axe or hammer, and a few interrupts... I certainly will.

With a pet only one slot is wasted. That slot is charm animal.

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See how much damage you can actually do. I will mention that apply poinon is one of the worst things possible for a melee type to use. It GIVES the enemy HP if the have ANY sort of condition removal. Any half witted team has plenty of that.

I thought you were going to say apply poison was terrible for a melee type because they have to do a 2 second recast every 24 seconds, but you apparently slipped into a state of abject retardism and claimed that putting conditions on enemies is bad????

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It does not matter in the slightest how many energy pips you have or appear to have, warrrior attacks cost 5 energy. The good ones cost 0 energy.

It only matters if you want to keep up a +33% attack rate, keep up double adrenaline gain, and spam any 1-2 5 energy attacks. But I guess you aren't concerned will dealing more damage.

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Now once and for all pay attention to all the things a R/W cant do:

Cannot use chant buffs like conjure or JI. This means they get FAR less damage per strike. I dont know where you pulled that bullshit about apply poison being better, but it is honestly a paupers version of either of these 2.

Well, good thing I never said that!

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Cannot overcome common warrior counters. Warriors can use plague touch, hex breaker, drain enchantment, mend ailment, inspired hex, ANY OF THOSE to overcome conditions, hexes, or defensive chants. A R/W CANT.

Rangers come standard with basic condition removal.

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A warrior can even do exactly as a ranger does by going mes secondary for some drain spells, allowing him to EASILY spam all the 5 energy attacks he want.

A warrior is going to invest points into Inspiration of all attributes? Only to steal a meager 5 net energy every 20-30 seconds? And you think that's comparable to 5-7.5 equivalent pips of energy? This is by far the dumbest thing you have said. I dare you to make this build.

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Cannot deal good damage EVEN IF he is facing a team that is perfectly built to lose to him. No 16 weapon. No Strength. Nothing. You may want to consider that a 16 weapon attribute also increases damage from that attributes attack skills as well as just passively. 16 executioners/galrath/irresistable HURTS.

I never denied the extra ~4 points of damage on attacks and ~8 points of damage on attack skills. I am not advocating anything but truth.

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I am sorry, but if I dont know much about R/Ws, you know nothing about Guild Wars. Go try out team arenas before you post again.

Well unfortunately you don't know anything about R/W, or as it appears W/Me as well, oh and basic math, logic, composure...

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 13, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

And Neo continues on insisting with his retarded thread. Who the hell cares what others are playing? You had to make a freakin' thread just to "disprove" R/W's? Pathetic.

Why don't you worry less about what people want to play as and go enjoy the game instead? And people wonder why there's so many cookie cutter flavour of the month clone builds out there... People like Neo who act like they know everything and get pissy when someone plays something they don't like...

Ender Ward · Aug 13, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

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Originally Posted by ICURADik

Prot Spirit is 1/4 second cast time with 5 second recharge... In the battle between NR and Prot Spirit, I think it's obivous who wins.

NR is used to bring down existing enchant stacks. When these enchant are removed, you execute the adrenaline chain. You co-ordinate to finish casting Judge's Insight after Nature's Renewal comes down. This requires comms discipline, and cannot be effectively pulled off by PUGs.

Before the NR sledgehammer was available, you asked a friendly Necro to rend or lingering curse the target before you started the chain.

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You run 3 Hammer warriors? Nah this whole post is already bull.

Three characters, each capable of disrupting/killing an enemy monk on his own. Some of the time it's 3 Warriors. Some of the time it's 3 Rangers. Sometimes it's a mix. Etc.
When the metagame becomes 4 monks per team, there will be 4 characters required to disrupt/kill them.

Or perhaps you're following the philosophy of trying to kill one enemy Monk while 2 others are healing him. *Shrug* Whatever floats your boat ...

"This post is bull" is not an effective counter argument, by the way.

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I'm not sure if you read my next post, but I explained it quite well. When you both get reduced to 45 damage(the average target has 455 hp, not 480) attacking faster is the only thing to increase damage. Along with the extra 5 from a Vampiric Mod, which is much easier to use on a R/W.

And I'm saying a QS Ranger can do this more effectively than your Hammer weilding R/W. Without having to chase the target or have to work around wards. The only job a warrior has in PvP is spike disruption/killing. Not whacking away at a target for 30 seconds with your constant Irresistible Blow spamming, accomplishing nothing in the long run. But killing a caster within 6-7 seconds, on your own.
If you can't do that, why are you bringing a warrior? For basic damage output, a Hammer using R/W is very far from optimal.

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Monks aren't expecting their warriors to be spiked. 90% of the time they are watching their own ass, or healing another monk. Two ele's spiking a warrior for 170 immediately followed by 85 is 510 damage in 1.75 seconds. Even good monk have trouble reacting that fast.

My team's monks are aware of the builds our Hammer Warriors run. They know to watch for those rare occasions that we get targeted. Because only n00bs keep on frenzing when they take damage, instead of overriding it with sprint, Monks have plenty of time to mend you.

We like to play offensively, so it's usually we who make OpFor worry about their monks, instead of concentrating on keeping ours alive. 'Sides, our monks are built to protect each other, for those events when OpFor decides to fight aggressively as well.

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So you only Frenzy at the beginning? This is when I expect warrior's to use it. I don't know how you are getting away with it against good teams. Many warriors will extend themselves too far initially and if you catch them frenzying it can be an easy first kill.

The first thing you learn as a warrior is to not get so far out as to be unable to reach the healing range of a friendly Monk. Second, our monks have a high command priority. If {guild mate} Monk says you're getting too far, you drop what you're doing and get the hell back in range. Or, and what a concept, you don't frenzy.

Ofcourse as every competent Hammer Warrior learns, you only truly need a speed boost while executing your adrenaline chain. Before then, it doesn't matter how you came up with the required 7 adrenaline, as long as you did.

You also kinda learn situation awareness, you know when it's 'safe' to frenzy for faster adrenaline gain. You also know when not to. You *certainly* don't frenzy right at the start, while OpFor is taking a good look at your primary/secondary class and your attack rate.

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This is yet another reason why you have no clue. Your running around with sub 50% health and no one is spiking you? I don't really understand all the damage is undone in one spell argument. Are you using two superiors and the Monk is using Infuse health? That's the only way I see you getting a full 100% heal.

Sub 50% health? Where did you get that figure?

There is no reason to use 2 superiors. Infact, 90% of the time, I use 1 superior and 1 minor, and that's it, cause all you really need from the Warrior side is your weapon attribute and strength.

The second you start taking damage you hit SPRINT and get in range of a friendly monk. This ensures you no longer take double damage (overriding frenzy) and become a more difficult target for Arrows and Lightning Orbs. Surely I don't have to explain something so basic?

Why does it have to be a full heal? Just healing me up from 1/3 to 2/3 hitpoints with a Heal Other or Word of Healing is enough for my character to no longer be in immidiate danger of dying.

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Bolded the important part. How exactly do you expect to break thru Ward/Aegis/Guardian/Etc? Warrior's Cunning is the only other decent way to accomplish this, and it works alright with QZ to help with recharge. But the energy cost and recast time once again make the overall build do worse damage. You can't constantly chain Irresistible Blow on any W/? unless you are gimping yourself in another way.

Can't get into real specifics, or my guild-mates would hang me.

Against Aegis, you use Irresistible blow once or twice to keep your adrenaline up. Once Aegis is put down with an enchant removal, Nature's Renewal or ends naturally, you unload the chain. We've yet to meet a team that can keep Aegis up 100% of the time.

Wards, the cure for them is usually worse than the desease (you end up gimping the character). So you don't deal with them. You don't play the opponent's game. You find targets outside wards, you wait for them to pass while disrupting/draining the ward caster. You take advantage of OpFor clustering if they are all staying in one ward. There are multiple ways to deal with them, but none of them are done by the actual Hammer Warrior. That would be pointless and detrimental to the warrior's effectiveness. The warrior's job is to either find a target outside a ward, or to try and keep up adrenaline inside it, until the wards are dealt with.

Guardian gives the most problems. Even when removed, it can be recast right away. Through co-ordination, we found ways to deal with it. Forgive me if I remain vague, but as I said, my guild-mates would kill me if I let all of our strategies out. Knowing how we counter it would point out a way to prevent what we are doing.

All I can say is we never use Warrior's Cunning. What a horrible, horrible skill. But I can say that a Necromancer (secondary) is instrumental in taking down Guardian/Aegis spammers.

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Your the one with the closed mind. Have you honestly ever tried a R/W?

*sigh*

Try to imagine a situation where you can, and want, to both enjoy a 33% speed boost and higher damage.

As for playing R/W, ofcourse. I first tried them out during the BWEs, and several times since in release. I found them lacking.

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Goodluck gaining Adrenaline against a Ward/Aegis/etc.

You don't lose adrenaline for missing. And you do hit a percentage of the time. The only thing I truly worry about as a Hammer Warrior, is Soothing Images. Thank god for effective hex removal.

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So let me see. Your talking about NR owning a skill with 1/4 cast timeand 5 recharge

Hmm? When did I say this? I stated that NR is used to take down stacked protective enchantments, Protective Spirit among them, before executing a chain. The difference between cast times is irrelevant, because the needed result is accomplished.

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yet a skill with 2 second cast time and 10 recharge is useable?... by a warrior? I don't know about you, but the 3 hits I get with my R/W in the 4.75seconds it takes you to cast Judge's Insight will more than make up the lack of armor penetration.

A 2 second, even 4 second (under NR) cast time skill is perfectly usable by a warrior. Who watches warriors for interruption? Hmm? Who cares that you're standing there casting JI? Are you losing all of your accumulated adrenaline in 4 seconds? No. There simply is no problem. JI lasts more than long enough to get to the target, execute your chain, and kill it.

I keep trying to explain this, but so far in vain ...
The sustained damage ability of your R/W does not matter. The build has no spiking power. It doesn't matter that you can continue to hit the target for good damage until the cows come home. You need to be able to disrupt and kill it before it can heal/cast a protective enchant on itself.

I played a R/W without stonefist gauntlets, you cannot disrupt well enough to keep a target from casting quick spells life RoF. These builds don't keep a target on the ground long enough. And they don't do enough damage per hit to kill it in just 4-5 attacks.

Sustained damage doesn't matter. Spike damage on an incapacitated target is all that matters. There is no other use for a warrior in PvP. If sustained damage is what you're looking for, bring a bow Ranger.

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No, the cast time is not 2 seconds.

The base cast time is 2 seconds. Cast time under Nature's Renewal is 4 seconds. The only time cast time would become relevant is if it was 6 seconds. People would then begin to suspect you're a Rebirth using n00b and interrupt you.

Otherwise the cast time is the least of your worries as a Warrior.

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Thought you were using NR right before the adrenal spike? So no, this makes no sense.

You must co-ordinate in order to defeat Protective Spirit and enchant stacking in general. The person putting up Natu're Renewal has to let you know when he is close to finishing his casting. You need to finish your cast of JI after NR is up, so you can get to the target quickly and unload your chain before all the enchants are back up.

Before NR, it was difficult to co-ordinate such strikes on multiple targets. But with the sledgehammer of enchant removal, it's alot easier.

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It's not viable, with what you've already said.
Edit:I just noticed this is a ficticious build you've never used. Why are you running 16/10/8 when you can run 16/11/8?

Because I was too lazy to open the game and wrote those stats from memory. But ofcourse being told the build I used just 2 days ago was ficticious was reason enough to load GW and take a screenshot:

And what exactly isn't viable? Like I said, if you can't get to a target and kill it with your chain in 18 bloody seconds (15 sec + 20%) of JI duration, you've no business playing a Hammer Warrior.

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With Tiger's Fury I can Devestating, Irresistible Blow, and Heavy Blow all in a row without the target healing, unless it is a 1/4 second skill.

And somehow, under Frenzy, with 2x longer knockdown duration, and much stronger attacks, the W/Mo does it better.

Now, perhaps I'm weird like that in using logic, but 2x longer knockdowns, much stronger damage per hit in the chain, would seem to indicate that the W primary is better at the job of executing a disrupting/killing adrenaline chain.
But that's just me. I'm weird like that.

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You seem really good at playing theory craft. Those 150 damage hits may look nice on noobs. But good teams SPAM Prot Spirit. It simply doesn't happen man.

Theory Craft? Oh you've hurt my feelings now ...

The simply reality is this, either your team develops a build and the co-ordination to circumvent protective spirit, or you don't bring hammer warriors. Nor do you bring R/Ws either, as that's just wasting slots on a team. Unless they're running Quickshot (not that I'm a fan of those either).

P.S.
God I'm tired of these quote fest ...

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 13, 2005, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Now can we end this e-peen contest? How about we all declare that we all have 12 inch ones? Happy now?

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

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