Curse

pagansaint · Aug 12, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Now as for these "special roles" they fit in, the only one I can imagine you are refering to is to be a spirit layer while still causing damage. In that case, why the heck did you go warrior and melee in the first place? Spirit casters work just as well/better using a bow than if they are trying to use a melee weapon. Expertise has a much more noticable attacks on a bow's attacks, and nearly all of a bow's energy attacks are far and away better than anything you will find from a melee weapon. They will have access to better preps than apply poison, they will be able to switch targets better, they will not be weak to wards, you get stuff like distract shot, debil shot (t3h owned especially when under zephyr) etc etc etc.

Errr, that template you posted only fits into ONE of the many roles a R/W can loadout to be.

And as you posted it YES, a bow ranger would be much better with oath shot or poison arrow loaded. FOR THAT PURPOSE.

What about laying traps ON enemy casters? Spike Trap or Fire Trap or Barbed Trap? or How about defending their own casters? Dust Trap? Barbed Trap? Throw Dirt? Hamstring? Weakening and Crippling? R/W. a W/* CANNOT do that.

How about taking a monk out of the fight near single handedly? Spike Trap or Barbed Trap, Hammer knockdowns, Poison, interrupts, enchantment removal.... R/W does this better than W/*, W/E comes almost close, but relies heavily upon energy skills which a ranger is better at and damage which is easily countered by a Prot Spirit.

I can counter your "Only a warrior primary can do this!" situations by accomplishing the same thing in a very different way with a R/W built specifically to do that.

All except pure physical damage output, R/W does less DPS due to no strength attribute.

But it can compensate by being able to spam energy based attacks and skills.

No one class combination is better than another class combination 1v1.

The NAME of the game is GUILD Wars, implying more than 1v1 combat.

But sometimes people need it spelled out. Repeatedly.

pagansaint · Aug 12, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

War + Anti Caster Mesmer < R/W + Anti War Mesmer. Oh dang thats hard to figure out. It may not even work out that way cus the anti caster mesmer has something to say about the anti war mesmer's spells, but this is a flawed way to compare in the frist place.

In an expiriment, ALL variables are kept constant except one, which changes. This is to ensure that any change in outcome is guarenteed to have come from that difference. A better experiment would be

War + Anti War Mesmer vs R/W + Anti War Mesmer (see? all variables constant except the difference betweent the war and R/W)

In this case, the war has a clear advantage becuase he has acess to secondary spells (/monk or /mesmer can easily remove hexes) but a R/W cant.

Did you even read that whole paragraph I set that up in? or hell even the REST of my post? I said something about that. the R/W would lose. DUH. But he has more counters available than the W/N does, to the biggest killers to warriors, you know: spikes, degen, blind.

The point is it depends upon the TEAM. Back to not reading? and the comments about being ignored is also incorrect. YOU are ignoring the responses or dismissing them out of hand.

And I wasn't saying anything about you letting this die, was talking about the people who brought this back from the dead. Again, back to taking everything said on the board personal like when this was originally made?

Hell Marauder · Aug 12, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Yes...so what? A good player with a better build is better than a good player with a worse build. A R/W compared to a W/* clearly qualifies as a worse build 95% or more of the time as the facts have been laid out numerous times in this thread. If you can't play a W/* well but you can play a R/W well (how that would work is beyond me), well that's great, but don't come in here and start saying that the R/W is just as good if not better just cause it's what works for you (not directed at anyone in particular).

Here is a warrior arrogance at its extreme. 95% of time, eh? Show me your statistics and where it comes from. Any published data to support your claim? Don't just throw in numbers in to expect others to agree with you.

It all depends how what you mean by "better". A R/W cannot do what warrior does better than a warrior, but a R/W can do what a ranger does better than a warrior. So a R/W is better than a W/R in what a ranger does, and a W/R is better than a R/W in what a warrior does. IT's as simple as that, period. Any argument?

Ender Ward · Aug 12, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

The only use a Warrior has in PvP is being (mostly) ignored, as he is killing a caster in 4-5 hits (or ~6 seconds) while keeping said caster on the ground unable to save himself. Everyhing else can be better done by another class combination. Ranger/Warriors, however, cannot do the above.

1) R/W attacks aren't as strong. Attack skill bonuses top out at +24 damage vs +32 damage.

2) R/W do 15% less damage due to not being able to push their weapon attribute to 16 (12 max).

3) R/W attack skills don't have the benefit of Strength, which results in even less damage.

4) R/W cannot use their secondary for Judge's Insight (while the warriors stack this with their strength based armor penetration). Resulting in yet again less damage. They have to tax another character with casting JI on them, for them and stil end up not as effective as a Warrior primary.

5) R/W knockdowns don't last long enough, as they have no access to Stonefist Gauntlets (and Backbreaker is crap). The disruption is far less effective.

So if you can't execute a chain of attacks that deals 100+ damage each within the space of ~6 seconds, while keeping your target on the ground, what use are you to the team? Damage? Bah, a bow Ranger can do that job, only without being neutered by wards or needing to chase the target.

Oh oh, but a melee Ranger can go 1v1 with anyone! Yes ... that's really useful (/sarcasm).

Scaphism · Aug 12, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

5) R/W knockdowns don't last long enough, as they have no access to Stonefist Gauntlets (and Backbreaker is crap). The disruption is far less effective.

Lack of stoneskin gauntlets is really what kills hammer R/W for me, and I think that's been overlooked in this thread. The extra second it adds to each knockdown is HUGELY important in keeping your target in place while you punish him. It also lets you comfortably land attacks like Crushing Blow or Belly Smash(if you're inclined to use it) that are conditional on striking a knocked down target.

I want to know which energy based attacks my R/W hammer guy is supposed to be spamming to make expertise so vital to the build. I love Irresistible Blow as much as the next hammer jockey, but I rarely run into energy problems between Frenzy, Sprint, and IB. Tell me what else I'm supposed to be running that will tax my energy so severely. Please, I'd like to know.

loc87 · Aug 12, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

i have one question ... why is everyone (or most people) assuming that a r/w is only used to do melee DPS?

ICURADik · Aug 12, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

The only use a Warrior has in PvP is being (mostly) ignored, as he is killing a caster in 4-5 hits (or ~6 seconds) while keeping said caster on the ground unable to save himself. Everyhing else can be better done by another class combination. Ranger/Warriors, however, cannot do the above.

Hitting for 100? Not on decent teams. Prot Spirit is probably one of the best spells in the game.. Once you realize this, a ranger swinging away CONSTANTLY for 60-90 at 33% attack speed increase is much better than a warrior hitting at normal speed for 70-120. And don't even try to give me that crap about Frenzy. A Hammer Warrior using frenzy is complete suicide. It is retarted to try and use it against good teams. I love using Chain Lightning on Hammer Warriors for 170+ damage and following with a Light Striking for 85+.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

1) R/W attacks aren't as strong. Attack skill bonuses top out at +24 damage vs +32 damage.

Good Luck using that Irresistible Blow every other attack. Especially with QZ down. Once again... most good teams are running it already even if your own doesn't. Your energy get's owned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

2) R/W do 15% less damage due to not being able to push their weapon attribute to 16 (12 max).

Wow, 15% more damage. What do you think is better? 15% more damage or 33% more attack speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

3) R/W attack skills don't have the benefit of Strength, which results in even less damage.

Strength is an incredibly weak attribute. Expertise is MUCH more useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

4) R/W cannot use their secondary for Judge's Insight (while the warriors stack this with their strength based armor penetration). Resulting in yet again less damage. They have to tax another character with casting JI on them, for them and stil end up not as effective as a Warrior primary.

Please god don't tell me your actually use Judge's Insight... The duration, cast time, and energy cost are all far to cumbersome for a Warrior primary to ever use. To even get a decent level in Smiting you need to sacrifice Weapon Skill or Str, something you claim as an advantage. I've said it multiple times, to only reliable way to use Judge's Insight is on a Smiting E/Mo, or a strange Mo/? Smiting variant with 15+ Smiting skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

5) R/W knockdowns don't last long enough, as they have no access to Stonefist Gauntlets (and Backbreaker is crap). The disruption is far less effective.

Stonefist Gaunts are hardly a make or break item for a Knockdown Char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

So if you can't execute a chain of attacks that deals 100+ damage each within the space of ~6 seconds, while keeping your target on the ground, what use are you to the team? Damage? Bah, a bow Ranger can do that job, only without being neutered by wards or needing to chase the target.

We've already been over your 100+ damage numbers. Just because you fight noobs that run often and don't use prot spirit doesn't mean you are an expert on how a proper Hammer Warrior works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Oh oh, but a melee Ranger can go 1v1 with anyone! Yes ... that's really useful (/sarcasm).

I don't know where this 1v1 argument keeps coming from. A Warrior with mend ailment/plague touch will dominate 90% of R/W's. R/W simply works better in a team situation. It isn't that hard to understand.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

Back to not reading?

If I read some of your posts, you dont read any of mine. I responded to the points of your post that were most important and/or made the most sense. I notice you cmpletely ignore my entire example of how a R/W is inferior against an anti-melee mesmer and choose to criticize my method of arguming insead.

Since you are so interested, I will adress some other points within yourposts that I can find...

Trapping... Sure a Ranger can trap better than a warrior. Thats a hard one. But ya know what? He can only trap as good as the next ranger. There is absoultely no benifit to switching to a melee weapon. In fact, you are cutting yourself short of poison arrow and oath shot, 2 of the most common trapper elites.

We are not talking about a 1v1 comparison. Im surprised to hear that argument come from a R/W guy, since that is practially their best arguement. "I can win a 1v2" and yes they can. Their evasion is really good, but that doesnt make one bit of difference if no one attacks you. Remember, this is GUILD wars, implying more than 1v1 combat.

Now SPECIFICALLY what can a melee R/W do well? Honestly? He cant trap, spirit spam, or damage as well as a bow ranger. He cant knockdown, damage, or fight anti-melee effects as good as a warrior. If you're argument is that he is a mediocre blend of both, Im afraid your in need of a new one. Honestly the best type of R/W is one who takes 7 ranger skills, a res sig, and a bow.

Jake · Aug 13, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Warrior's have access to strength which means they have access to warrior's endurance which means they can actually spam energy based attack skills more easily than a R/W and can basically keep it going forever. R/W will have the 33% speed boost which warrior's endurance doesn't let you have but that's ok.

Technically I believe the highest damage output would involve something along the lines of flourish + attack speed boost stance + 16 in weapon mastery + spamming energy skills, but it's pretty difficult to make this work out right, I should try to work on it some more, maybe some help from a secondary or something.

Not really as simple as saying R/W wins because it can spam energy skills whilst being in tiger's fury, warrior's have options that you probably just have never thought about. I will give R/W the benefit that they don't need to use their elite slot to get the energy conservation though, there could be something there too but I haven't really looked into it.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Hitting for 100? Not on decent teams. Prot Spirit is probably one of the best spells in the game.. Once you realize this, a ranger swinging away CONSTANTLY for 60-90 at 33% attack speed increase is much better than a warrior hitting at normal speed for 70-120. And don't even try to give me that crap about Frenzy. A Hammer Warrior using frenzy is complete suicide. It is retarted to try and use it against good teams. I love using Chain Lightning on Hammer Warriors for 170+ damage and following with a Light Striking for 85+.

Good Luck using that Irresistible Blow every other attack. Especially with QZ down. Once again... most good teams are running it already even if your own doesn't. Your energy get's owned

Wow, 15% more damage. What do you think is better? 15% more damage or 33% more attack speed.

Strength is an incredibly weak attribute. Expertise is MUCH more useful.

Please god don't tell me your actually use Judge's Insight... The duration, cast time, and energy cost are all far to cumbersome for a Warrior primary to ever use. To even get a decent level in Smiting you need to sacrifice Weapon Skill or Str, something you claim as an advantage. I've said it multiple times, to only reliable way to use Judge's Insight is on a Smiting E/Mo, or a strange Mo/? Smiting variant with 15+ Smiting skill.

Stonefist Gaunts are hardly a make or break item for a Knockdown Char.

We've already been over your 100+ damage numbers. Just because you fight noobs that run often and don't use prot spirit doesn't mean you are an expert on how a proper Hammer Warrior works.

I don't know where this 1v1 argument keeps coming from. A Warrior with mend ailment/plague touch will dominate 90% of R/W's. R/W simply works better in a team situation. It isn't that hard to understand.

How can one person be wrong so many times in one post?

1) Prot spirit is less common now that nukers are less dominating. Its not like it isnt easily removed, and its not like a R/W wont have the same problem. Except that wait! Warriros have acess to a secondary, which means that they can personally strip this sucker and coninue to beatdown (R/Ws cant)

2) Your Irresistable blow is 33% weaker than a warrior's. Come to think of it, all of your hammer skills are 33% weaker than a warriors.

3) Id think twice before you trash a free 15% damage boost to your attacks. Its just as/more useful that TF.

4) For a melee class, expertise is an incrediably weak attribute. We are talking like 1000000x less useful than strength. 5 and 0 energy attacks people. DOES THIS NOT REGISTER?!?!?!? Intelligent warriors use an attack skill at least every other attack. Do not trash a 10+ AP to your attacks on 1/2 our attacks. (the half which already has a damage bonus tacked on by the attack skill)

5) Stonefist gauntlets are an extra second. If you cannot understand that value, you are a lost cause.

6) The 1v1 argument keeps coming up cus its the only thing R/Ws are good at. Sad thing is they still can lose.

---------------------------

How many times must it be spelled out:

15% extra damage per attack for free

33% more bonus damage from very attack skill

10+% AP on every attack skill

1 second longer knockdown each time if using a hammer

Acess to a secondary which can be used for JI, conjure element, or anti-H/E. R/Ws have absolutely do way to punch through those. Warriors can, and they can do it while replenishing their energy supply. So much for not being able to spam energy attacks.

vs what?

33% increased atack speed

slightly better armor

evasion stances

worthless expertise attribute

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

How can one person be wrong so many times in one post?

1) Prot spirit is less common now that nukers are less dominating. Its not like it isnt easily removed, and its not like a R/W wont have the same problem. Except that wait! Warriros have acess to a secondary, which means that they can personally strip this sucker and coninue to beatdown (R/Ws cant)

2) Your Irresistable blow is 33% weaker than a warrior's. Come to think of it, all of your hammer skills are 33% weaker than a warriors.

3) Id think twice before you trash a free 15% damage boost to your attacks. Its just as/more useful that TF.

4) For a melee class, expertise is an incrediably weak attribute. We are talking like 1000000x less useful than strength. 5 and 0 energy attacks people. DOES THIS NOT REGISTER?!?!?!? Intelligent warriors use an attack skill at least every other attack. Do not trash a 10+ AP to your attacks on 1/2 our attacks. (the half which already has a damage bonus tacked on by the attack skill)

5) Stonefist gauntlets are an extra second. If you cannot understand that value, you are a lost cause.

6) The 1v1 argument keeps coming up cus its the only thing R/Ws are good at. Sad thing is they still can lose.

---------------------------

How many times must it be spelled out:

15% extra damage per attack for free

33% more bonus damage from very attack skill

10+% AP on every attack skill

1 second longer knockdown each time if using a hammer

Acess to a secondary which can be used for JI, conjure element, or anti-H/E. R/Ws have absolutely do way to punch through those. Warriors can, and they can do it while replenishing their energy supply. So much for not being able to spam energy attacks.

vs what?

33% increased atack speed

slightly better armor

evasion stances

worthless expertise attribute

How can one person say something as blatantly RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOy and wrong as you?

Prot Spirit is still equipped on every decent prot monk. It is an amazing skill. The reason it isn't as big a problem for a Ranger becuse you focus on more attacks for slightly less damage. R/W hits for 95 on Irresistible Blow crit, Hammer warrior hits for 120. R/W has 50 damage shaved off, Hammer Warrior has 75 shaved off. You both do the same damage. Attacking 33% faster is certainly better than doing a useless 25 more damage on a target that takes no more than 45 damage.

You do a very professional job of glazing over QZ. You DON'T spam 5 energy attacks with QZ down. I occasionally get low on energy with my R/W when QZ is down. There is no way in hell your spamming Irresistible Blow every other attack with a Warrior Primary. Guess what? being able to use a 33% weaker skill twice as much is far stronger than the original skill.

You talk about only using only 0 and 5 energy skills but then say your using Conjure and JI. Which is it?

I use a Vampiric Mod on my R/W. You simply can't do that on a primary War using Hammer. You are forced to take the Zealous mod and use it inefficiently if you want to keep up with energy.

I'm not sure your off in lala land with anit-H/E comment. NR is currently the best skill in the game for punching through enchantments or removing many hexes from your own team.

You sir are a lost cause. Maybe you should be preaching to all those top 20 guilds when they stomp you with their own R/W's.

Arri · Aug 13, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

W/R's can't use judges insight eather, remember we are talking about R/W vs W/R, NOT R/W vs W/Mo

Ender Ward · Aug 13, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Hitting for 100? Not on decent teams. Prot Spirit is probably one of the best spells in the game..

Protective Spirit isn't there, as you start your adrenaline chain 1 second after Nature's Renewal comes up.

Protective Spirit isn't there, when there is nobody to cast it, because there is a Hammer warrior on each of the 3 monks the enemy team has brought, and all three are on the ground. Ventrilo exists for a reason.

Quote:

Once you realize this, a ranger swinging away CONSTANTLY for 60-90 at 33% attack speed increase is much better than a warrior hitting at normal speed for 70-120.

Ranger attacks do not magically ignore Protective Spirit (PS) caps anymore than Warrior attacks. On a 480 health target covered by PS, you will hit for 48 max, whether you're a R/W or W/X.

Quote:

And don't even try to give me that crap about Frenzy.
A Hammer Warrior using frenzy is complete suicide. It is retarted to try and use it against good teams. I love using Chain Lightning on Hammer Warriors for 170+ damage and following with a Light Striking for 85+.

If a team is attacking my Warrior, they're not very smart, are they? As a single heal from any of the 3 monks on my team negate any damage OpFor dealt to me.

Besides, the only time I frenzy is when gaining Adrenaline initially (and everyone ignores me at this point, most of the time), and just before beginning to unload my adrenaline chain that kills a monk in 4-5 hits (never letting him up).

OpFor can go ahead and attack me while I kill their monk. As soon as I'm done, I'll hit sprint and get in range of a friendly monk (if not there already, our monks do have brains ...). All that damage to my character is undone with a cast of one spell.

Quote:

Good Luck using that Irresistible Blow every other attack. Especially with QZ down. Once again... most good teams are running it already even if your own doesn't. Your energy get's owned

Why would one use Irresistible Blow outside of an adrenaline chain? It's to be used as the Finisher in a chain, or to break through Aegis.

The only use Warriors have in PvP is unloading massive damage adrenaline chains on an incapacitated (on the ground) target. Nobody cares if a melee R/W can scratch away at targets forever. It can't do the only job that a Warrior has in PvP.

Quote:

Wow, 15% more damage. What do you think is better? 15% more damage or 33% more attack speed.

Both.

When it actually matters.

Open your mind.

Quote:

Strength is an incredibly weak attribute. Expertise is MUCH more useful.

Expertise has no use to a Warrior using 3 Adrenaline skills costing 0 energy and 2 skills costing 5 energy.

Thanks to Strength, a Warrior's attack skill, buffed with Judge's Insight, results in 30-36% armor penetration. To illustrate the difference this makes, I'll provide a simple example:

On caster armor (AL 60), a Lightning Orb rated for 106 damage, thanks to armor penetration, actually does 140 damage. You gain 34 damage from 25% armor penetration.

A Hammer Warrior using a 'perfect +35%' PvP Hammer, with 16 in Hammer Mastery, does 54 base damage. Add +32 damage from an attack skill, and you have 86 base damage. Assuming a very reasonable 10 ranks in Strength, buffed with JI, you end up with 117 damage.

Explain to me again how Strength and JI aren't worth it?

Quote:

Please god don't tell me your actually use Judge's Insight... The duration, cast time, and energy cost are all far to cumbersome for a Warrior primary to ever use. To even get a decent level in Smiting you need to sacrifice Weapon Skill or Str, something you claim as an advantage.

The cast time is 2 seconds, and you have all the time in the world before you unload your adrenaline chain on a caster.

Energy cost is the same as using Aftershock. If 10 energy breaks your warrior's back, you have a poor build.

To get a decent duration you need a measly 8 ranks in Smiting, which you then further increase by using a 20% longer enchants grip. But the funny thing is, while the duration for Judge's Insight under these conditions is a whopping 18 seconds ... you need it up for about 10 seconds, at most, while you get to your target and execute the chain that kills it.

There is absolutely no need to drop Hammer Mastery from 16 in order to get 2-3 more seconds on Judge's Insight.

16 Hammer (12 + 1 + 3)
10 Strength (9 + 1)
08 Smiting

That's all you need.

Quote:

Stonefist Gaunts are hardly a make or break item for a Knockdown Char.

Actually they are the most important factor. They are the difference between the target getting up and getting off a heal, and the target dying while stil on the ground.

Zeru · Aug 13, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Stonefist Gauntlets, strength, and a buff are the only reasons hammers can solo a monk from full health to death.

And frenzy is just as much of a staple as sprint is for a warrior. It is hardly suicide if you're smart about using it; good team or not, being able to successfully notice and coordinate a spike on a frenzied target in a short enough time without them noticing till they're dead is almost impossible and requires quite a lot of luck unless they are just keeping frenzy on 24/7 which is stupid anyway.

Arri · Aug 13, 2005, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Of corse Hammer W/E Knockdown aftershock warriors arn't the only type of warrior that exists...2 5 energy skills, even with your other adrenaline skills, your going to have to use your energy skills sometime, and 2 pips of regen isn't very 10 energy out of 20 friendly...and PS does not automaticly disable a R/W +33% attack speed, so a R/W will STILL do more damage than a warrior, same damage, different speeds, the fastest attacker wins the damage meter...Judges insight doesn't go through protective spirit eather (atleast I think it doesn't) So that doesn't help if the enemy is PS'd eather, catching my drift? A R/W is better than a W/* In different ways, you can't just go "W/* HAS BETTER ARMOR! W/* OWNS */W!!!!!111!!!" As I said before, do warriors get +elemental defense? A R/W does, instead of 80-85AC armor like a warrior has, they have 70AC +15 or 30 (i forget) + ANOTHER element of their choosing, if they pick something other than druid armor.

The simplest way to end this argument would be: "A R/W can do things better than a W/R can, and a W/R can do things better than a R/W can" But unfortunenetly, due to human nature, this argument goes on untill a moderater locks the thread, or everyone here gets bored of arguing and accepts R/W and W/R different traits, different jobs jthat can be done better.

Scaphism · Aug 13, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Actually they[stonefist guantlets] are the most important factor. They are the difference between the target getting up and getting off a heal, and the target dying while stil on the ground.

/claps

Thank you. I wasn't sure if quoting myself 30 mintues after my original post would be a double post/inappropriate as a mod. I don't know how to be any clearer on the subject.

Hell Marauder · Aug 13, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Since you are so interested, I will adress some other points within yourposts that I can find...
Trapping... Sure a Ranger can trap better than a warrior. Thats a hard one. But ya know what? He can only trap as good as the next ranger. There is absoultely no benifit to switching to a melee weapon. In fact, you are cutting yourself short of poison arrow and oath shot, 2 of the most common trapper elites.
Now SPECIFICALLY what can a melee R/W do well? Honestly? He cant trap, spirit spam, or damage as well as a bow ranger. He cant knockdown, damage, or fight anti-melee effects as good as a warrior. If you're argument is that he is a mediocre blend of both, Im afraid your in need of a new one. Honestly the best type of R/W is one who takes 7 ranger skills, a res sig, and a bow.

Why can't a R/W do things a bow R/W can? What specifically can a melee R/W do well? Well he can annoy hell out of everybody. Compared to a bow ranger, a sword ranger can attack twice more. And don't just look at a R/W from a warrior point of view, a R/W is just like a bow R/W that can get close and personal, so trap setting can be more effective if stances are used to avoid interruption, and setted at close proximity to where action is. A R/W can cause deep wound, lowering 20% of maximum health, one condition no bow ranger can do.

I happen to believe sword is designed specifically with a R/W build in mind. Just look at how many pvp warriors who abandon sword and turn to axe and hammer. Is hamstring useful to a warrior with its 10 energy cost? Most ppl like to consider DPS, but not taking condition into account. High DPS is useless if a monk is using Protection Bond or Protection Spirit. High DPS is useless if an elementalist has armor of earth or mist form enchanted. But conditions are useful in those instances, and that's where a R/W fits in. So a R/W is both a damage and condition dealer. With apply poison, throw dirt, sever artery, gash, hammstring, flame trap, a R/W can cause 6 conditions with six skills, a feat no other profession can match.

Arri · Aug 13, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Why can't a R/W do things a bow R/W can? What specifically can a melee R/W do well? Well he can annoy hell out of everybody. Compared to a bow ranger, a sword ranger can attack twice more. And don't just look at a R/W from a warrior point of view, a R/W is just like a bow R/W that can get close and personal, so trap setting can be more effective if stances are used to avoid interruption, and setted at close proximity to where action is. A R/W can cause deep wound, lowering 20% of maximum health, one condition no bow ranger can do.

I happen to believe sword is designed specifically with a R/W build in mind. Just look at how many pvp warriors who abandon sword and turn to axe and hammer. Is hamstring useful to a warrior with its 10 energy cost? Most ppl like to consider DPS, but not taking condition into account. High DPS is useless if a monk is using Protection Bond or Protection Spirit. High DPS is useless if an elementalist has armor of earth or mist form enchanted. But conditions are useful in those instances, and that's where a R/W fits in. So a R/W is both a damage and condition dealer. With apply poison, throw dirt, sever artery, gash, hammstring, flame trap, a R/W can cause 6 conditions with six skills, a feat no other profession can match.

Correct, I predict people coming in now to say "A W/R can do that too! It just depends on the build! blah blah blah blah"

But heres a question to the OP: WHY exactly, are you trying to tell US "R/W sucks! W/R does anything a R/W does 1000x better!!"? Are you trying to get us to STOP playing ranger primary because warrior primary is soo much better? That's a whole new argument for you people: Why be a ranger when you can be warrior!!!?

Or maybe it's because R/W is an anti-warrior (if built right) and you just don't want people to become that? And have everyone flock over to W/R?

People CAN and WILL do what they want, if they want to, they CAN make a R/W, nobody on these forums can stop them.

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Protective Spirit isn't there, as you start your adrenaline chain 1 second after Nature's Renewal comes up.

Prot Spirit is 1/4 second cast time with 5 second recharge... In the battle between NR and Prot Spirit, I think it's obivous who wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Protective Spirit isn't there, when there is nobody to cast it, because there is a Hammer warrior on each of the 3 monks the enemy team has brought, and all three are on the ground. Ventrilo exists for a reason.

You run 3 Hammer warriors? Nah this whole post is already bull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Ranger attacks do not magically ignore Protective Spirit (PS) caps anymore than Warrior attacks. On a 480 health target covered by PS, you will hit for 48 max, whether you're a R/W or W/X.

I'm not sure if you read my next post, but I explained it quite well. When you both get reduced to 45 damage(the average target has 455 hp, not 480) attacking faster is the only thing to increase damage. Along with the extra 5 from a Vampiric Mod, which is much easier to use on a R/W.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

If a team is attacking my Warrior, they're not very smart, are they? As a single heal from any of the 3 monks on my team negate any damage OpFor dealt to me.

Monks aren't expecting their warriors to be spiked. 90% of the time they are watching their own ass, or healing another monk. Two ele's spiking a warrior for 170 immediately followed by 85 is 510 damage in 1.75 seconds. Even good monk have trouble reacting that fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Besides, the only time I frenzy is when gaining Adrenaline initially (and everyone ignores me at this point, most of the time), and just before beginning to unload my adrenaline chain that kills a monk in 4-5 hits (never letting him up).

So you only Frenzy at the beginning? This is when I expect warrior's to use it. I don't know how you are getting away with it against good teams. Many warriors will extend themselves too far initially and if you catch them frenzying it can be an easy first kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

OpFor can go ahead and attack me while I kill their monk. As soon as I'm done, I'll hit sprint and get in range of a friendly monk (if not there already, our monks do have brains ...). All that damage to my character is undone with a cast of one spell.

This is yet another reason why you have no clue. Your running around with sub 50% health and no one is spiking you? I don't really understand all the damage is undone in one spell argument. Are you using two superiors and the Monk is using Infuse health? That's the only way I see you getting a full 100% heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Why would one use Irresistible Blow outside of an adrenaline chain? It's to be used as the Finisher in a chain, or to break through Aegis.

Bolded the important part. How exactly do you expect to break thru Ward/Aegis/Guardian/Etc? Warrior's Cunning is the only other decent way to accomplish this, and it works alright with QZ to help with recharge. But the energy cost and recast time once again make the overall build do worse damage. You can't constantly chain Irresistible Blow on any W/? unless you are gimping yourself in another way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

The only use Warriors have in PvP is unloading massive damage adrenaline chains on an incapacitated (on the ground) target. Nobody cares if a melee R/W can scratch away at targets forever. It can't do the only job that a Warrior has in PvP.

Both.

When it actually matters.

Open your mind.

Your the one with the closed mind. Have you honestly ever tried a R/W?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Expertise has no use to a Warrior using 3 Adrenaline skills costing 0 energy and 2 skills costing 5 energy.

Goodluck gaining Adrenaline against a Ward/Aegis/etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Thanks to Strength, a Warrior's attack skill, buffed with Judge's Insight, results in 30-36% armor penetration. To illustrate the difference this makes, I'll provide a simple example:

On caster armor (AL 60), a Lightning Orb rated for 106 damage, thanks to armor penetration, actually does 140 damage. You gain 34 damage from 25% armor penetration.

A Hammer Warrior using a 'perfect +35%' PvP Hammer, with 16 in Hammer Mastery, does 54 base damage. Add +32 damage from an attack skill, and you have 86 base damage. Assuming a very reasonable 10 ranks in Strength, buffed with JI, you end up with 117 damage.

Explain to me again how Strength and JI aren't worth it?

So let me see. Your talking about NR owning a skill with 1/4 cast timeand 5 recharge, yet a skill with 2 second cast time and 10 recharge is useable?... by a warrior? I don't know about you, but the 3 hits I get with my R/W in the 4.75seconds it takes you to cast Judge's Insight will more than make up the lack of armor penetration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

The cast time is 2 seconds, and you have all the time in the world before you unload your adrenaline chain on a caster.

No, the cast time is not 2 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Energy cost is the same as using Aftershock. If 10 energy breaks your warrior's back, you have a poor build.

Thought you were using NR right before the adrenal spike? So no, this makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

To get a decent duration you need a measly 8 ranks in Smiting, which you then further increase by using a 20% longer enchants grip. But the funny thing is, while the duration for Judge's Insight under these conditions is a whopping 18 seconds ... you need it up for about 10 seconds, at most, while you get to your target and execute the chain that kills it.

There is absolutely no need to drop Hammer Mastery from 16 in order to get 2-3 more seconds on Judge's Insight.

16 Hammer (12 + 1 + 3)
10 Strength (9 + 1)
08 Smiting

That's all you need.

It's not viable, with what you've already said.
Edit:I just noticed this is a ficticious build you've never used. Why are you running 16/10/8 when you can run 16/11/8?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Actually they are the most important factor. They are the difference between the target getting up and getting off a heal, and the target dying while stil on the ground.

With Tiger's Fury I can Devestating, Irresistible Blow, and Heavy Blow all in a row without the target healing, unless it is a 1/4 second skill.

You seem really good at playing theory craft. Those 150 damage hits may look nice on noobs. But good teams SPAM Prot Spirit. It simply doesn't happen man.

ICURADik · Aug 13, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Stonefist Gauntlets, strength, and a buff are the only reasons hammers can solo a monk from full health to death.

And frenzy is just as much of a staple as sprint is for a warrior. It is hardly suicide if you're smart about using it; good team or not, being able to successfully notice and coordinate a spike on a frenzied target in a short enough time without them noticing till they're dead is almost impossible and requires quite a lot of luck unless they are just keeping frenzy on 24/7 which is stupid anyway.

Frenzy is 8 seconds. Warrior's usually start battle with it... It's not hard to coordinate at all.