Curse

Epinephrine · Aug 11, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Frenzy doesnt even make a war as squishy as a monk.

You keep saying this enough and maybe you can convince yourself. It makes him MORE squishy. Think about it - every form of direct damage, shadow damge, holy damage, armour negating damage in the game is doubled - treating you like an effective armour 20 compared to the 60 everyone else has. Every blast of damage from an area spell, even those that are affected by armour (say earthquake) is being applied against your 80 AL and doubled, making it essentially equal to a 40 AL. Only vs physical damage does it come close to being equal to a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan

Point #1: Nothing costs 1 energy in this game that I know of unless you use glyph of lesser energy or glyph of energy, which you can't use since your not an ele.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...sts-id1154.php. Check that out if your confused on the energy costs. At 12 expertise as you claim, your energy reduction would be 48%. A 5 energy skill would be reduced to 2.4 which would be rounded down to 2 energy.

Math errors here - it takes 13 expertise to hit 2 energy; 48% reduction is 52% of initial, resulting in 2.6, which is rounded up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan

Point #3: The damage output of a warrior is far greater than a ranger....

I think the argument is that R/W has edges in certain roles, not in the straight damage output in a 1 on 1 situation. The fact is that Rangers can keep the attack speed up indefinately, have no energy issues compared to a warrior and can have better armour. Comparing them in a void is pointless, you have to consider the role they are playing and the environment - if you are running R/W instead of W/* you will likely be using rituals etc... to influence theings to benefit your R/W team. You may for example be using QZ to make it a tougher job for anyone depending on energy, and your R/W are using their constant heightened attack rate to build adrenaline quickly - in order to Fear Me regularly for example. The whole point of the game is builds, and I think that comparing the R/W and W/* in a void is pointless - they both have advantages - the R/W operates better in an environment that benefits rangers... hence fits well in ranger type teams.

cookiehoarder · Aug 11, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Eeeee...Just looking at this makes me sick. I like R/W for 4v4 arenas, and W/R in Tombs. I use hammer with BEAST MASTERY not FRENZY. Because frenzy is a crock o' crap for w/r or r/w. Tiger's Fury is the way to go.

Mhydrian · Aug 11, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

R/W is more than a match for any warrior. There maybe a very few specalized warrior builds that can compete with a R/W in melee 1vs 1 but then you limit yourself fighting everything else.

Using tigers fury 33 haste all the time, spamming cyclone axe when needed, and using a skill like cleave a R/W can put out serious DPS. Especially on casters. The real problems with a R/W is the reliance on stances(which are better than war) to make up for the lack of armor. This limits a ranger on offensive skills, or even a snare ability. So I find myself very able to kill tanks as a R/W but usually it costs me something elsewhere.

I usually bring Cleave, Cyclone axe, Heal sig, Tiger's fury, open slot, Whirl Defense, Blind or lighting reflexes, Rez Sig.

With the above skill bar you only have one open slot to play with. Sometimes I bring wild blow to break stances, sometimes Natures Renewal ( even with krap wilderness) to strip enchants. I have tried different melee builds....some relying more on wilderness survival and troll uguent....with traps. A good build with wilderness survival build is bring a flame trap and putting it down when your opponent is at 40% health(use a stance and time it so maybe he gets one chance to interrupt) or so....and using eviscerate+axetwist or Galraths+Final thrust.......it can be devastating as its a HUGE amount of burst damage if done right.

JJ78 · Aug 11, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

If you guys had ever bothered to read the skill descriptions on stuff like wild blow or swift chop you would realize that the whole point of a QZ R/W is to cut through guardian and ward against melee with every attack doing extra damage and either removing stances or giving conditions. in all other situations a regular warrior is superior.

in addition, i don't know where this drug induced idea that more than 12 in a weapon skill is worthless got started. do an empirical test for yourself and see the difference. with 16 hammer i can do a 4 skill sequence that will kill a 500 hp monk before he can get one spell off. with 12 hammer that simply doesn't kill. that is reason enough to have 16 hammer. furthermore, what the hell are you going to spend those points in anyway? good warriors are 100% offensive unless its comp arena newb town. the best offensive skill in tactics is Fear Me but that is about it.

Cyan · Aug 12, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiehoarder

Eeeee...Just looking at this makes me sick. I like R/W for 4v4 arenas, and W/R in Tombs. I use hammer with BEAST MASTERY not FRENZY. Because frenzy is a crock o' crap for w/r or r/w. Tiger's Fury is the way to go.

Tigers Fury is a 10 energy skill... if you use it as a warrior primary class you might find yourself on the short end of energy. Frenzy is perfectly fine... just don't use it when your targeted.

Stuntastic · Aug 12, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I was reading this post when I reached about page 3 and realized no one had mentioned that alot of R/W are so because of Cyclone Axe/Apply Poison. Sorry if someone mentioned this before me. I couldn't bear to read two more pages.

carnivore · Aug 12, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan

Tigers Fury is a 10 energy skill... if you use it as a warrior primary class you might find yourself on the short end of energy. Frenzy is perfectly fine... just don't use it when your targeted.

on top of that they wanna use apply poison. a solid 15energy, with a constant frenzy.
and the cyclone has been mentioned but its basically usless in pvp atleast mostly.

and for the last time, let the topic die. we dont need this kinda argument, it doesnt get us anywhere.

Arri · Aug 12, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

As said before, W/R and R/W can do MANY different things, you can't compair them, it's like saying "DAMAGE W/R ownz inturrepter R/W!!!" That isn't 100% true...Warrior armor may be higher AC, but a rangers is VERY VERY close and has +elemental defense, something warrior armor doesn't have (If im correct).

Im sorry, but "Learn to play the game before you talk" Is just plain stupid to say..Have you seen the WoW boards? It's full of "Get to 60 before you talk, n00b" "stupid non-60 n00b" "cry more n00b" "Learn to play your class, n00b".....Get my point? Do you really want GW's community to become more like WoW's?

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 12, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

What's there to disprove?

Warriors are completely designed to strike up close and personal.
Rangers are completely designed to strike far away like cowards...

Once you start switching roles, you're just becoming counterproductive.

And whoever said a R/W will beat any Warrior, fight my W/N... I can guaruntee that if you're melee type, I'll have your ass for dinner...

Allatu · Aug 12, 2005, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I have tried explaining this many times. Some people get it, some people simply refuse to listen, no matter how plainly I put it into words. Before now Ive only mentioned it in other threads, trying to point out to specific people that R/Ws are really bad for PvP. This is my final attempt to explain it; putting everything in a nice and cohesive order with logic that a 5-year-old should be able to follow...

What a W/** can do better than a R/W

He can use Warrior runes. That lets him get a 16 point weapon attribute. R/Ws cant. This lets him deal more damage per attack tha a R/W.

He has strength. This gives more damage per attack, for free. This gives him EVEN more damage per attack than a R/W.

Incorrect. Strength gives a tiny AR to Attack Skills not attacks.

Quote:

He has a secondary to tap into. Conjure Flame or Judges Insight plz. This allows him to get EVEN more damage per attack than a R/W.

Apply Poison == 8DPS
Pet == 12DPS
Expertise + Tiger's Fury == Constant +33% Attack Speed
Also having a pet means you can use an Axe or Hammer and still cause bleeding.

Conjure Element doesn't compare. Judge's Insight will only be better for undead. Secondly, Conjure and Insight are both enhancements that can be removed. They are beyond usless in PvE.

Quote:

What they do the same

They have similar targeting priority. Both of them can do basically whatever they want and not need to worry about taking much damage.

They attack at the same rate. Frenzy and Tigers Fury. TF is admittedly better, but Frenzy is only worse if you are being pounded, which is extremely rare.

When ever I see a Warrior start attacking really fast, I immediately call target and gib him. 8 seconds is plenty of time to get ganked.

Quote:

If they are pounding you, simply dont hit frenzy and it will be their loss since they cant deal squat damage to a warrior anyways.

What a R/W Can do better

They can spam energy intensive moves more than a warrior since they have one more pip of regen and extertise.

Having 10 Expertise on a Ranger is equivalent to 5 pips.

Having 15 Expertise on a Ranger is equivalent to 7.5 pips.

Quote:

Due to their great armor and certain expertise moves, they can actually stay alive longer than a warrior in most situations.

A R/W can win a 1v1 fight with a warrior.

Why none of the R/Ws advantages actually matter

They can spam all those... 5 and 0 energy... moves. Great. Warriors dont have a problem with that anyways. Congrtualations. R/W, on providing a solution where there was no problem in the first place.

BullSh*t. A Warrior cannot spam frenzy and his best attacks.

Quote:

Their better survivablility doesnt matter for the same reason that warrior's survivability doesnt: You wont be targeted until after your team is dead.

1v1 does not matter. You may be able to hand a warrior his ass, but in a real fight he will simply ignore the R/W and go for a monk. The R/W can pound away all he likes, but all his damage can be undone by about one heal spell every 10 seconds.

Now please no one say "but R/Ws can spam energy attacks more" or the like. I KNOW. I even said so myself, and if you were paying the slightest bit of attection you would have also read how that fact is irrelevent. If you can honestly point out something that I missed (e.g. is NOT mentioned in the above), feel free. But you have a rather large mountain of evidence to overcome before you can even say that a R/W is equal with a W/**, much less preferable.

You don't seem to know very much about R/W.

The Linguist · Aug 12, 2005, 06:04 AM // 06:04

pwned

Eonwe · Aug 12, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuramaroze

Although you'd have to be stupid to have 16 in a weapon attribute, I do say that W/X > R/W. Not much to argue, its simply better.

It's more like you'd have to be stupid not to.

I just skimmed the thread real quick and noticed that nobody had thrown in the benefits from 16 in your specific weapon attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

1.) 15% more damage in regular attacks. 15% more damage!

2.) Attack skills don't drop off in effectiveness like regular attacks do, so you get a bigger bonus.

3.) Perceived increase in critical hits

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

All told a 16 attribute, perfect customized weapon is going to deal +58.52% damage.

Just some facts from another post I thought I would add to the discussion

.

Sammiel · Aug 12, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Well the 58.62% figure is a little deceptive. A R/W with 12 in weapon skill gets a damage bonus of (100 * 1.2 (customized) * 1.15 (health above 50, stance, etc)) = 138% assuming bonuses are multiplicative. A W/* would get (115 * 1.2 * 1.15) = 158.7%. So a W/* with 16 will really only do 15% more than an equivalent R/W barring strength bonuses. With Strength tossed in it gets trickier.

What would be interesting it comparing two similiar builds and looking at the ability of the Ranger to spam their evade piercing attack every 4s (seeking blade et al) vs the raw damage bonuses of a warrior. It wouldn't necessarily answer the question of which is better, but it would give a slightly better view on the damage differential. Would the bonus damage of the spammable attacks overweigh the damage bonuses of the warriors higher weapon skill and strength. You can do some theorycraft, but I donno how valid it is.

For instance using a sword, barring adrenal skills, the warrior should do about ((15+22) / 2) * 1.587 / 1.33 = 22 DPS while actively in melee and barring speed enhancers (TF/Frenzy). The ranger would do ((15+22) / 2) * 1.38 / 1.33 + 16/4 (seeking blade bonus divided by recharge) = 23.19. Now since that is discounting adrenal skills and strength, I'd imagine that the W would creep ahead in the DPS department when that is taken into account. But I don't think the difference would be much at all. Probably like 2-3 DPS if I had to make a WAG.

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allatu

Incorrect. Strength gives a tiny AR to Attack Skills not attacks.

Apply Poison == 8DPS
Pet == 12DPS
Expertise + Tiger's Fury == Constant +33% Attack Speed
Also having a pet means you can use an Axe or Hammer and still cause bleeding.

Conjure Element doesn't compare. Judge's Insight will only be better for undead. Secondly, Conjure and Insight are both enhancements that can be removed. They are beyond usless in PvE.

When ever I see a Warrior start attacking really fast, I immediately call target and gib him. 8 seconds is plenty of time to get ganked.

Having 10 Expertise on a Ranger is equivalent to 5 pips.

Having 15 Expertise on a Ranger is equivalent to 7.5 pips.

BullSh*t. A Warrior cannot spam frenzy and his best attacks.

You don't seem to know very much about R/W.

I do not know why I even bother trying to convince scubs like you. Taking every single point you made one at a time:

Strength gives bonus to all attack skills. Thats fine, any decent warrior should be using one of those on every other attack. You also forgot (conveniantly) to adress the poit that warriors deal 15% extra damage per attack for free with their 16 point weapon attribute.

Sure, you go ahead and waste points in wilderness and 3-4 skill slots on a pet. See how much damage you can actually do. I will mention that apply poinon is one of the worst things possible for a melee type to use. It GIVES the enemy HP if the have ANY sort of condition removal. Any half witted team has plenty of that.

It does not matter in the slightest how many energy pips you have or appear to have, warrrior attacks cost 5 energy. The good ones cost 0 energy.

Now once and for all pay attention to all the things a R/W cant do:

Cannot use chant buffs like conjure or JI. This means they get FAR less damage per strike. I dont know where you pulled that bullshit about apply poison being better, but it is honestly a paupers version of either of these 2.

Cannot overcome common warrior counters. Warriors can use plague touch, hex breaker, drain enchantment, mend ailment, inspired hex, ANY OF THOSE to overcome conditions, hexes, or defensive chants. A R/W CANT. A warrior can even do exactly as a ranger does by going mes secondary for some drain spells, allowing him to EASILY spam all the 5 energy attacks he want.

Cannot deal good damage EVEN IF he is facing a team that is perfectly built to lose to him. No 16 weapon. No Strength. Nothing. You may want to consider that a 16 weapon attribute also increases damage from that attributes attack skills as well as just passively. 16 executioners/galrath/irresistable HURTS.

I am sorry, but if I dont know much about R/Ws, you know nothing about Guild Wars. Go try out team arenas before you post again.

Epinephrine · Aug 12, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Poison is good for one great reason - it works nicely with QZ to eliminate monk energy. At a cost of less than 1 energy per poisoned target and with a monk spending 7 energy to cure it each time you can win the energy race pretty handily. Yeah, they get a bit of healing, but you can't afford to keep doing that forever. Poison is however wasted in PvP on a melee charcter, as they won't infect enough people. You can't seriously be saying that a degenerative condition is a bad thing because it can be cured. Right, nobody uses disease in PvP, I had forgotten.

1) You say Rangers can't use JI or an Enchantment. So what? They can attack faster the whole time, they can use more energy based attacks and they have the luxury of picking something other than a zealous hilt. Yeah, I fyou are running JI you must be using a zealous hilt or somthing, because 10 energy every 12 seconds or so will be torpedoing your warrior. At least the ranger can use something other than the conjure hilt (Yay! You deal elemental damage now! Sucks to be you!) and the zealous hilt.

2) Hmm, I seem to remember a ranger signet to deal with conditions... Yeah, that's right, there is one. Antidote signet. Poison, disease and blindness. Pretty useful really, and recharges fast.

3) Warrior can cast spells for energy. Rofl. Yeah, THAT's good use of your warrior. Put a pile of points into inspiration (level 10 sound like enough?), sacrifice other useful abilities, spend 3 seconds standing around looking stupid to steal 11 energy for a net gain of 6. Every 20 seconds. Wow, you gain almost a pip of regeneration, all for only a third of your attribute points, a skill slot, 15% of your time per minute...You now have almost the energy regeneration a ranger has without using any skills. Did you have to work to get an answer that bad to your energy problems? The other choices are pretty much as bad. Inspired enchantment nets you even less, Energy Drain would take your elite and still be lousy, Power Drain could potentially be worth it, but what warrior wants to stop and babysit a caster hoping for a nice easy spell to interrupt - and possibly miss.

Seriously folks, you can't compare the two - they do similar things but by different mechanisms, and are different creatures. Comparing them really is comparing apples and tomatoes. Both red, both fruits, both sources of vitamin C, but one makes a good soup and the other a fantastic pie.

A warrior sucks with no adrenaline for example. A R/W is fine if you nerf his adrenaline, he can still spam an energy based skill every second attack. A warrior is generally in trouble if you strip his enchantments, while a R/W has no reliance on enchantments to boost damage. The warrior does a bit more damage per attack. The ranger hits more often. The warrior needs to cast a spell to get rid of conditions, which takes energy; the ranger has a 0 cost way to handle that. The warrior will be restricted to a fire hilt or a zealous hilt if using JI or a conjure. The ranger can use whatever the hell he wants. You say poison is lousy, but if spread around it sure isn't. Have any doubts, look at how many teams are using disease and the like. I won't get into a talk about efficiency, but a R/W can be very effiecient.

Is a warrior a better source of damage? Probably, if not interfered with. Is a R/W trying to take that title? I hope not - they're built for other purposes. Each has situations in which they excel, and each has a role to play.

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

QZ or fertile season
Charm Animal
Apply Poison
Antidote Signet
Comfort Animal
Tigers Fury
*insert attack skill here*
Resurection Signet

To take advantage of the pets, preperation, spirits, and get about 10% of the anti-melee resistance of a warrior (basically to make use of the arguments of the R/W supporters), thats the build you have to take. Wow thats impressive. Come back when you have a build that can consistently land 90+ damage per hit and be impervious to most forms of anti-war.

btw Epinehprine at no point did I suggest to use trash like energy tap. Inspired Hex and/or drain enchantment are much better becuase they gain energy WHILE also punching through stuff like soothing image/faintheartedness etc and prot spirit/life bond etc. I guarentee you will kill more stuff if you take the time to get rid of those pesky H/Es than if you take a couple extra attack skills and try to do it the old fashoined way.

Epinephrine · Aug 12, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Look, I don't say that R/W is "better" than a warrior. I don't even say it'll do better DPS than a DPS loaded warrior.

You can't compare them directly, and you are trying to. Apples and Tomatoes. They play different roles that are similar at first glance.

You said "When you play a R/W, your goal is to cause large melee damage", and I disagree. It's to do enough melee damage while spamming useful skills and taking advantage of situations that a R/W has an edge in. By (for example) relying on energy based attacks they aren't as affected by things like Soothing images and so on. By having a permanently increased attack rate and not relying on a zealous grip they can up their damage by using vampiric, or their adrenaline by using furious. They operate fine in a QZ environment, which is one way I'd try to use them, and thus might make better energy denial warriors, with increased attack speeds and spammed auto-hit attacks to get through the evasion by wards and such and to build adrenaline quickly for "Fear Me".

There are many roles each can play, and while they are in some ways superficially the same beast, they really aren't the same once you get to know them.

Go ahead and think the R/W is trash, they're a succesful build and fit some roles wonderfully. Given your erroneous claim that a warrior in frenzy is less vulnerable than a monk, and the odd perception that a ranger's job is purely DPS (or that aa warrior's job should be purely DPS) I'm starting to think that you just don't get the way the game works anyway.

Throwing trash together to make a crappy build is ludicrous. Anyone could throw the same back at you. After all, it clearly means that we should take a list of any skill mentioned to make a build - pointing out that they work well under a ritual doesn't mean they need to cast the ritual. Obviously your warrior monk brings Mend Ailment, Smite Hex, Judge's Insight, Frenzy and also has an energy based attack that can hit when a ward or defensive enchantment is up, a 16 score in his weapon, a second stance so you can snap out of Frenzy if you see a spike coming and a res signet. Oh, and you get an attack too. Wow, I like your lineup too!

Smite Hex
Judge's Insight
Pure Strike
Mend Ailment
Frenzy
Defensive Stance
weapon attack of some sort
Res Signet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

And yes most R/Ws I meet are very arrogant, and very dead.

Which are you, the Kettle or the Pot?

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

A warrior trying to use energy attacks is usually less sucessful than a R/W trying to, thats certain. But now compare to an intelligent warrior, one that uses mostly adren skills with maybe one energy attack. All of a sudden the war is doing a lot more damage. Using a vampiric weapon and subpar energy attacks is a loousy way to make up the damage gap.

Sure, by your math I now agree that a war is somewhat vulnerable during frenzy. Against an excellent team, they will make you pay for it. But honestly even without frnezy, a warrior is still killing a Tfed ranger in DPS. But oh right you already conceded that so I wont drill it home anymore.

Now as for these "special roles" they fit in, the only one I can imagine you are refering to is to be a spirit layer while still causing damage. In that case, why the heck did you go warrior and melee in the first place? Spirit casters work just as well/better using a bow than if they are trying to use a melee weapon. Expertise has a much more noticable attacks on a bow's attacks, and nearly all of a bow's energy attacks are far and away better than anything you will find from a melee weapon. They will have access to better preps than apply poison, they will be able to switch targets better, they will not be weak to wards, you get stuff like distract shot, debil shot (t3h owned especially when under zephyr) etc etc etc.

Edit: At least I was serious when I posted my example R/W as about as good as a R/W could get. Now you're just being belligerent.

Adren Attack 1 (could be eviscerate, final thrust, devastating hammer, galrath, executioners, etc)
Adren Attack 2 (more of the same)
Adren Attack 3 (see above)
Energy Attack 1 (irresistable/seeking/swift chop etc)
Sprint
Anti-Anti-War 1 (anti hex/chant/stance)
Attack Buff 1 or Anti-Anti-War 2 (JI, conjure, or more of anti-hex/chant)
Res Sig

is what I had in mind. Mind posting an example R/W?

pagansaint · Aug 12, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

This is ridiculous, I went on vacation and left this midway down the second page, come back 2 weeks later and its at the top.

Let me get this right... People are all butt hurt over someone saying a certain class combination is better than their preferred class combinations....

Correct so far? Believe so...

Then argue about it for 2 weeks because a few people won't read or don't comprehend whats been written about how they are both melee, but entirely different uses and strategies.

Still got it? Thought so...

Ok now here's a thought, don't hurt yourselves by being open to new ideas now...

Lets PERTEND real quick that a R/W and a W/* both have different strategies and different uses. Still with me?

Moving on to... Now, the person playing said R/W or W/* COMBINED with the team they are with makes them MORE effective or LESS effective depending upon the skill of the players and teams. ALSO upon the random factor of what type of team they run into.

Agreed?

Or are we going to continue this pissing match? Both classes are effective AT CERTAIN ROLES based upon the teams they are in. R/W vs W/N as someone thinks would be entirely one sided, say the R/W has an anti warrior Mesmer on his team and the W/N only has an anti-caster. Hmmm darn, W/N dead in under 20 seconds. a minute or more if he uses Grenth's Balance and a siphon and plague touch, but now he's out of energy. Other way around? uh oh, the R/W can counter some of BOTH the W/N transfering and anti-warrior Mes.

But thats assuming they both know exactly what they are facing when the load out and also assuming both are going to go after the opposing melee's not caster's first.

Which if they do, they will lose. The are too big of newbs to win if they go for a W/N or a R/W first.

Let. This. Die. Jesus.

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

War + Anti Caster Mesmer < R/W + Anti War Mesmer. Oh dang thats hard to figure out. It may not even work out that way cus the anti caster mesmer has something to say about the anti war mesmer's spells, but this is a flawed way to compare in the frist place.

In an expiriment, ALL variables are kept constant except one, which changes. This is to ensure that any change in outcome is guarenteed to have come from that difference. A better experiment would be

War + Anti War Mesmer vs R/W + Anti War Mesmer (see? all variables constant except the difference betweent the war and R/W)

In this case, the war has a clear advantage becuase he has acess to secondary spells (/monk or /mesmer can easily remove hexes) but a R/W cant.

btw this thread was dead, and when it was revived I even intentionally didnt post here for a few days cus I was sick of posting the same dang evidence over and over only to have it be completely ignored. Must be a pride thing. Then some jerk had to make some extended post full of bullsh!t and end it with a slap in the face and "pwned".