Curse

Zeru · Jul 28, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Some people just refuse to be convinced that what they're doing is infact subpar or they are just playing that way because it's fun and they don't care about being better (beats me why they'd be posting here).

It's just like that necro thread which attracted all the scrubs who ignored every rational argument; I think you're wasting your time Neo, some people just refuse any advice

.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 28, 2005, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I dislike R/Ws who think they are all that and complain loudly when they lose. R/Ws who try to challenge people 1v1 because its the only thing they are good at. R/Ws who suck but dont realize why.

Does this mean you don't mind War/Rangers who try to challenge people and complain loudly when they lose? So you love it when other classes suck but don't realize it?

See this is what I mean by the irrational prejudice. You act like other classes don't do the things you just described. And I highly doubt that there were a lot of R/Ws that acted the way you said since R/W's aren't that common to begin with.

Anyway, my point was that discussions about builds are fine, but this whole thread has been about ego. Nothing more. It's pointless to anyone because it's all opinion. Anyone who was on the fence won't be convinced on either side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Some people just refuse to be convinced that what they're doing is infact subpar or they are just playing that way because it's fun and they don't care about being better (beats me why they'd be posting here).

OH NO! People who play what they want for fun! In a game! AAAGHHH! How dare they?!?!

Rey Lentless · Jul 28, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

EXCUSE ME? Read the first post, kid. I took the time to step-by-step expain EXACTLY why I think R/Ws are bad. You cannot get any more clear:

"What Wars do better"
"What They do the same"
"What R/Ws do better"
"Why none of the R/Ws advantages actually matter"

All backed up with facts and evidence. Of all the things you can criticze me for in this thread (bais, prejudice, beligerence) NO ONE can say that I dont provide TONS of evidence to back up what I say.

Agreed. Good thread. Summed it up nicely. I might put a link to this thread (at least the first post is of value) in our forum to help people in my guild understand why their r/w builds are inferior.

This isn't some sort of weird motivation to wipe out some profession combo. It's to enlighten people and provide them with information to allow them to make a better decision. I imagine a lot of the people using r/w indeed do think it's a superior build.. and so it is of some value to them. There's nothing in this thread to take personally. It's a couple of professions in a game, that's it. If I was using a r/w (which I did briefly), I'd want to know this information.

pagansaint · Jul 28, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

In this game, of all PvP MMORPGs, the player and his ability to use his/her build has more to do with the actual class and/or class combinations.

And, if people haven't noticed, which after this long of arguing and blind devotion to a veiwpoint is likely, a good player with a good build they KNOW, be it W/* or R/W, will draw fire as they severely harm the casters in another team.

In ToPK, a single R/W set up for interrupt and/or knockdowns and DPS with poison and/or bleed can keep a caster steadily losing health and unable to help his/her teammates. This is usually NOT the main targeted monk, but a secondary monk or ele/monk spamming heals. This enables the primary target to be killed quicker. The rest of the team should then move to the next target, which should NOT be the one being harrassed by the single.

I've drawn more hell from elementalists and mesmers because I've taken a healing monk and kept him too busy keeping himself alive through interrupts and constant damage. Would a R/Me or R/E work better in that role? Maybe, maybe not. I found a build that I realy like and works rather well for me. Someone else copied my build and couldn't do a thing with it.

The lesson? For ME that build worked as well if not better than other builds FOR THAT ROLE. If I want a damage spike type char? I play a R/E. But Hey, thats me, it works for me.

Is a R/W a damage power house? Nope, it is very nice tactical asset to those who look to find an advantage. It CAN be an advantage, but if not used right it will hurt the team.

Remember a while back when W/Mo had the worst reputations ever because of how many people just grabbed the stock Paladin template and didn't have a clue how to play?

You see alot of R/W and alot fo them don't know what the hell is going on, so now they are getting the bad reputation

Any Class, Any Combination is effective. Thats Guild Wars. :|

Zeru · Jul 28, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

OH NO! People who play what they want for fun! In a game! AAAGHHH! How dare they?!?!

If you're playing your class solely because it's fun you have no reason to post in a thread trying to help people out and say that it's better when it's clearly not. All that does is spread disinformation to all the new players who actually come here looking for advice. Great job not actually reading what I was saying and just nitpicking; yeah, doing that really is useful

.

Quote:

In this game, of all PvP MMORPGs, the player and his ability to use his/her build has more to do with the actual class and/or class combinations.

Yes...so what? A good player with a better build is better than a good player with a worse build. A R/W compared to a W/* clearly qualifies as a worse build 95% or more of the time as the facts have been laid out numerous times in this thread. If you can't play a W/* well but you can play a R/W well (how that would work is beyond me), well that's great, but don't come in here and start saying that the R/W is just as good if not better just cause it's what works for you (not directed at anyone in particular).

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 28, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

If you're playing your class solely because it's fun you have no reason to post in a thread trying to help people out and say that it's better when it's clearly not. All that does is spread disinformation to all the new players who actually come here looking for advice. Great job not actually reading what I was saying and just nitpicking; yeah, doing that really is useful

.

Read my posts again. My point was that this thread is NOT helping people out, it's just a pissing contest as Dudededu correctly stated. And just how did I spread disinformation? Because I said people should play what they want and not be bullied by people like you to play what YOU want them to play?

Like you said...some people might want to read this thread for advice, and I put in MY advice. This thread is mostly about ego not about the builds themselves. That was my point.

And I did read your post and I showed you how silly it was to get ticked off at people playing what they want for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

If you can't play a W/* well but you can play a R/W well (how that would work is beyond me), well that's great, but don't come in here and start saying that the R/W is just as good if not better just cause it's what works for you (not directed at anyone in particular).

Again trying to bully people. Why can't he post here to tell about his experience with a R/W? Who the hell are you to tell anyone they can't post here? This IS a thread about R/W's is it not? Get over yourself.

S H I N O B I · Jul 28, 2005, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Why none of the R/Ws advantages actually matter

They can spam all those... 5 and 0 energy... moves. Great. Warriors dont have a problem with that anyways. Congrtualations. R/W, on providing a solution where there was no problem in the first place.

Their better survivablility doesnt matter for the same reason that warrior's survivability doesnt: You wont be targeted until after your team is dead.

1v1 does not matter. You may be able to hand a warrior his ass, but in a real fight he will simply ignore the R/W and go for a monk. The R/W can pound away all he likes, but all his damage can be undone by about one heal spell every 10 seconds.

Now please no one say "but R/Ws can spam energy attacks more" or the like. I KNOW. I even said so myself, and if you were paying the slightest bit of attection you would have also read how that fact is irrelevent. If you can honestly point out something that I missed (e.g. is NOT mentioned in the above), feel free. But you have a rather large mountain of evidence to overcome before you can even say that a R/W is equal with a W/**, much less preferable.

This is where I get confused. Im sure W/x's can spam low energy sword skills... thats fine, but how can W/x's spam them and continue to spam those high energy 2ndary attack skills like conjure, and judges insight? (not sure if they're high... are they?) What are the skills you use to be able to do energy management? I have a W/Mo (main) that I like to play and i have a problem with energy management (i use mostly adrenal skills to). Skills I use currently are For Greater Justice, Sever/Gash, Final, Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Rebirth, Orison of Healing, but I'd like to replace the heals with some smiting skills so advice on this would be beneficial for me. On another note, I also have a R/W (alt) that I seem to be liking more and more because i can use apply poison/sever artery along with low energy attack skills like wild blow, hundred blades, etc, as well as evasion tanking skills like L/R, W/D and Throw Dirt without fully depleting my mp bar... I find this really beneficial and makes up for the lack of energy management on my W/Mo (I think it does more consistent dps than my W/Mo too... at least for now, unless you can help me make my W/Mo better ^.^). If you could provide me with a template for a W/Mo that does more dps than R/W and can manage energy well as well as tank, I would really appreciate it ^.^

Till then, for now I will enjoy both builds ^.^ as they are...

Bast · Jul 28, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

The issue isn't that R/Ws suck. It's that in a PVP team you have a limited number of character slots, and a W/* is more effective against a wider range of targets than a R/W could ever be. If your claim to fame is that you can kill Warriors, you've already lost.

I was helping some guildies through Thirsty River the other day and I was told that a Ranger with 3 defensive stances and Troll Unguent could out tank a Warrior. Sure, but the Ranger just lost half his skill bar to do something the Warrior could do with no skills spent on it. Great idea! Let's take an offensive unit and make it into a shitty defensive one. Yesss. Heh, in PVP, that Ranger won't be tanking a damn thing because HE WILL BE IGNORED. Congratulations, half your skill bar is wasted.

pagansaint · Jul 28, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

If you're playing your class solely because it's fun you have no reason to post in a thread trying to help people out and say that it's better when it's clearly not. All that does is spread disinformation to all the new players who actually come here looking for advice. Great job not actually reading what I was saying and just nitpicking; yeah, doing that really is useful

.

Yes...so what? A good player with a better build is better than a good player with a worse build. A R/W compared to a W/* clearly qualifies as a worse build 95% or more of the time as the facts have been laid out numerous times in this thread. If you can't play a W/* well but you can play a R/W well (how that would work is beyond me), well that's great, but don't come in here and start saying that the R/W is just as good if not better just cause it's what works for you (not directed at anyone in particular).

W/* better than a R/W in all situations? How about Condition infliction? oh wait, its not. How about interrupts? no? again? damn.

Why do the top guilds use a R/W Hammer build? Because it works better than a W/* one? Just maybe.

As far as telling me a good player with a good W/* build is better than a good player with a good R/W build...

Whats your team's make up consist of? In certain builds no a R/W will not work. But a Good Player won't use a R/W for that team. I find groups that work for my R/W or my E/N or my R/E.

And the only one who is spouting about whats the best and whats better and what sucks is YOU.
You seem to have an over inflated ego about your knowledge of the game if you are going to spout off about how one combination sucks and how something is far superior.
Just because YOU can't make a build work doesn't mean someone else can't either. I'm a terrible healer except with one template, I just have no knack for it otherwise, so I don't do it. Do I complain and scream that all other class combinations are terrible? No. Because it works for other people.

They each have a purpose. They each have a role. If YOU cannot see that, its because YOU are one of those Flavor of the Month idiots who can't see past what someone posted on a board once and you took as scripture.

You really need to STFU an let go of your E-Peen Ego Stroking. Its just a game, people play it for fun and post here for information and to state their opinions, not to be abused by you because you felt like sharing your anti-social opinions of how you are right and they are wrong.

Dudededu · Jul 28, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Given the room for changing skills and builds and groups... there are so many possible combinations. To outright say anything suxs, youd have to prove that in so many situations and scenarios its really not worth my time(or anyones) to go over it all...
Seen them both... won/lost with both... think they both work well depending on the group etc etc etc...

How about we discuss the "E/Mo or Mo/E" one again?

ICURADik · Jul 28, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

No, it doesnt. Wars can easily afford 5 energy attacks, so the ranger's advantage there is hardly noticable. They can spam adren attacks equally well. btw, most energy attacks are in the strength attribute.

Some people dont think 16 attribute is good fro a war? Why the heck not? Its good extra damage, more useful than pointyou could spen elsewhere. 16 Weapon, 10 Smite/Element, 9 Strength is for the highest damage warrior possible.

The various Conjure Elements and Judge's Insight have no place on a warrior. Nature's Renewal will strip them every 10-20 seconds, and you simply don't have the energy to recast them, when this happens. It is much easier to have a Smiting E/Mo with practically unlimited energy to slap JI on your warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Yes...so what? A good player with a better build is better than a good player with a worse build. A R/W compared to a W/* clearly qualifies as a worse build 95% or more of the time as the facts have been laid out numerous times in this thread. If you can't play a W/* well but you can play a R/W well (how that would work is beyond me), well that's great, but don't come in here and start saying that the R/W is just as good if not better just cause it's what works for you (not directed at anyone in particular).

I will admit I had the exact same thoughts as you two not more than a month ago. After being soundly defeated by sB(Sissy Boys #3 on Guild Ladder), who were running a QZ energy denial along with a R/W, I thought differently. Using Irresistible Blow every other attack is very signifigant damage, easily making up for 15% less base damage. Along with a constant, cheap 33% attack speed increase, a W/E simply does not keep up in the damage department. They may spike better, but lose the consistant cheap damage and knockdowns that a R/W has.

Axe Warrior's are a much different story. Having far more powerful adrenaline based attack, and getting a much larger benefit from a Zealous mod's, they do have the energy to maintain their damage, and I find a Warrior primary to generally be more powerful with an axe.

I think you will find a large majority of R/W are using a Hammer. It should be clear why.

pagansaint · Jul 28, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Axe Warrior's are a much different story. Having far more powerful adrenaline based attack, and getting a much larger benefit from a Zealous mod's, they do have the energy to maintain their damage, and I find a Warrior primary to generally be more powerful with an axe.

I think you will find a large majority of R/W are using a Hammer. It should be clear why.

I posted near the same thing a few days ago, with all the adrenaline based skills there is a MUCH larger benefit from using Strength for Axe than Expertise which is MUCH better for Sword and Hammer.

ICURADik · Jul 28, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

I posted near the same thing a few days ago, with all the adrenaline based skills there is a MUCH larger benefit from using Strength for Axe than Expertise which is MUCH better for Sword and Hammer.

I was just making it clear to these knuckleheads that think I'm saying a R/W is better in every siuation.

pagansaint · Jul 28, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...916#post308916

For those that may be interested.

Cyan · Jul 28, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arri

did you forget ranger primary gets expertise and that lowers cost even more? so it wouldn't even be 5 energy, it would be 2-1 with 10-12 expertise, that and rangers start with more energy, more energy regen. IMO YOU are the "n00b that flocks to the W/R because it has more armor, regardless of the energy or energy regen, if the armor is high, who cares about energy?!?!" I love seeing a W/* in arena, I usually do 80+ damage + health degen and other nasty effects, lets see a warrior do this: 80+ damage + Posion + possable traps + blind the opponent, a W/R CAN do that, but again youd probably just reply like "a W/R CAN do that, WITH BETTER ARMOR!!!" Does a warrior get + elemental defenses?

You are forgetting several things Arri.

Point #1: Nothing costs 1 energy in this game that I know of unless you use glyph of lesser energy or glyph of energy, which you can't use since your not an ele.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...sts-id1154.php. Check that out if your confused on the energy costs. At 12 expertise as you claim, your energy reduction would be 48%. A 5 energy skill would be reduced to 2.4 which would be rounded down to 2 energy.

Point #2: You seem to forget that you can only have 8 skills on your bar. Yes you can do those things, but not ALL of those things at once. With all the things you just said you can barely squeeze it into 8 skills. You'd be running the tigers fury + the 3 swords energy skills + whirling defense + a trap + apply poison + throw dirt. That means youll have to spread 200 attribute points over 4 things. If you put a 12 in swordsmanship like you should (so you don't have damage penalties) that means youll be dropped down to 103 points to spend over 3 attributes, whereas a W/** only has to dish it out over 2.

Point #3: The damage output of a warrior is far greater than a ranger. All the good attack skills are adrenaline anyways. That famous galrath slash and final thrust combo? No energy for those 2 only adrenaline. Axe Warriors? Evicerate or cleave or executioners or penetrating? No energy there as well, only adrenaline. Hammer Warrior? Devastating hammer or mighty blow? Both adrenaline as well. Ooops where are the energy skills at? Seeking Blade and Pure Strike do 1/2 to a 1/4 of the damage of galrath slash and final thrust. All the energy hammer skills? Your opponent needs to have a condition for them to work. Are there any energy axe skills? Swift Chop which is almost worthless and cyclone axe... who uses that anyways?

Point #4: You gotta find a special kind of stupid for anyone to just sit there and allow you to put up a trap that takes 2 seconds to cast. 1 hit will disrupt a trap so its pretty easy to unless you use a defense like whirling or dryders defenses. Even then your trap placement isn't assured. A warrior can just bring warrior's cunning and your defenseless.

Point #5: Armor? I would say a warrior is better off in the armor department. Knights Armor is 80 + 20 vs physical plus 2 damage reduction. Throw on that superior absorption and thats 5 damage reduction. So if you compare the 2 armors I would take 10 armor bonus and 5 damage reduction over +20 elemental armor and -30 physical armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Um, per attack skill used, no?

Nope strength gives 1% armor penetration per hit. ANet nerfed it from 2% since it was too powerful. It also does increase certain skill damage outputs like power attack which is what I think you are thinking of.

S H I N O B I · Jul 28, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

On my R/W alt, I use TF, Hundred Blades, and Final Thrust... I find that constant spamming of TF and Hundred Blades recharges my Final Thrust pretty fast so it acts as a Galrath slash when enemy is above 50% and acts as Final Thurst below 50% which is pretty decent... I sometimes use this spamming combo for a constant fast recharge of sever/gash as well, and leaves enough energy for evasion skills ^.^ so expertise sorta gives benefits when using adrenal attacks IMO... On the other hand My W/Mo makes up for that with either constant flurry, frenzy or For Greater Justice, but I wont have much energy left for other skills

...I kinda find that my R/W kills faster.... but then again I only have 12 on swdsmanship for both builds.... I should probably bump this up to 16 on my W/Mo to see the advantages ;p

I think its pretty equal, just different approaches with the same outcome... To tell you the truth, I'm a Warrior at heart, but I'm starting to like R/W the more I play it....

Scaphism · Jul 29, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuramaroze

Warriors *dont* use sup runes anyways. Weapon atts barely add any bonus after 12, and the -75 health isnt worth it.

Since you brought it up, I think you're wrong.
There are good reasons to get 16 in your weapon attribute of choice, and we've been having that talk in another thread for a few days now. Rather than retype it, take the time to read through it yourselves before you make more sweeping generalizations:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=37841

I'm fully in the Warrior Primary camp until I get hit with a R/W build that absolutely rocks my socks. They're novelty builds, and can be fun to play, but expertise on a warrior is gimmicky- I'd rather have access to a full secondary to top off my build- plague touch, aftershock, enchantment removal; they're all popular because they're effective- rather than access to redundant stances and excess energy.

And please take the time to form an argument before you trash a flat +15% to your damage.

Rey Lentless · Jul 29, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Nope strength gives 1% armor penetration per hit. ANet nerfed it from 2% since it was too powerful. It also does increase certain skill damage outputs like power attack which is what I think you are thinking of.

No, they nerfed it again to only affect attack skills too. The armor penetration does not trigger on normal attacks.

Quote:

I think you will find a large majority of R/W are using a Hammer. It should be clear why.

I still disagree here, although it is a bit different in a QZ build (although I have tried it there too). I use a w/e with warr end & zealous, and go with 16/14 hammer/str, using gale as my extra knockdown to replace the elite. Works pretty much iw/ with the same concept spamming energy attacks (irr blow and power attack in this case). Way more damage than a r/w, and I think gale makes up for the elite. ES would be better against altar holders, but for single target damage and knockdowns I believe that build is much better than the r/w. The 15% flat damage increase and 14% armor penetration pushes the damage considerably over what the r/w does (even with the 33% speed increase), and can spam energy attacks even more often. Considering the r/w isn't using AS either, I doubt ES is the usual elite they use. So it is an apples to apples comparison of single target dps/knockdowns and I believe my build would come out on top. You still have the available frenzy for spiking even harder inbetween WE casts.

Hell Marauder · Aug 11, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

No warrior can spam 5 energy attacks, but a R/W can because a 5 energy attack becomes 3 with just 8 points in expertise. I know because I play both a W/Mo and a R/W. Even 5 energy is hard for a warrior with 2 pips/sec to keep up but 2 energy is nothing to a R/W with 3 pips/sec.

Strength bonus on damage isn't all that great. Many warrior builds don't even bother putting points in strength so they can add attributes onto their secondary to increase damage. People like to look down on condition. Poison + bleeding from sword attack can take out 14 hp per sec. Some people like to say conditions are not damage dealing (directly or indirectly), well then, tell me why everyone is so eager to remove them if they are not so threatening?

Traps are useless in pvp?? Traps take 2 seconds to activate, but how about a hammer attack? 1.75 sec per attack, so you are telling me that you keep switching/running from target to target every 2 sec so traps can be avoided?? To avoid interruption in setting a trap, a stance is perferred. But it takes at least one full second before a busy-hitting warrior realizes a ranger is placing a trap behind his back, so in many instances you don't even need a stance.

Think of R/W as a condition rather than a damage dealer. The build a R/W needs to worry about is a necro of any kind. Whatever condition a R/W gives will be passed right back to him via plague touch/transfer.

carnivore · Aug 11, 2005, 02:14 PM // 14:14

oh god....just let it die