Curse

rii · Jul 31, 2005, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Dont use enchantments and hexes. Its not as hard as it sounds.

Red Sonya · Jul 31, 2005, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Now I see what the big demand for +15% damage "always" is about in GW's. I used to run with "while enchanted" items, but, now have moved to "above 50%" and "below 50%" health weapons/equipment. It does mess up my W/Mo build though since I relied a lot on Balthazar's Spirit for practically unlimited energy while getting hit. But, as someone said now I can use a stance in place of that to replenish my energy just about as fast.

I really don't believe the DEVS wanted NR to be as affective and overpowering as it is, guess no one saw this exploit in beta and it got overlooked, but, hopefully they will now take a hard look at it and "nerf it in the bud with the famous nerf bat".

I'm pretty sure there will be continued "nerfing" in the future as with all mmorpgs or mmos to bring balance and eqaulity back into the game.

Entropius · Jul 31, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Dont use enchantments and hexes. Its not as hard as it sounds.

This is exactly the wrong mindset!

The game should be balanced in a way that encourages strategic diversity, not discourages it. There are around 140 enchantments and hexes in the Guild Wars skillset, and you propose that we just don't use them?

Consider a stance that read something like:

"The next time you are the target of a Mesmer spell, that spell fails, and you steal 60...560 health from that foe." This skill is grossly overpowered, obviously, since it makes all Mesmers useless. Is the solution, then, "Well, just don't use Mesmers?"

I don't think so. Nature's Renewal needs to be fixed so that it, on its own, doesn't completely hose any and all enchantment/hex-based strategies.

There is lots of perfectly serviceable enchantment/hex hate in the game already. If my count is right:

Shatter Hex
Inspired Hex
Shatter Enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Convert Hexes
Smite Hex
Remove Hex
Drain Enchantment
Strip Enchantment
Rend Enchantments
Desecrate Enchantment
Well of the Profane
Lingering Curse
Soul Barbs
Melandru's Arrows
Chilblains
Dwayna's Kiss
Holy Veil
Purge Signet
Contemplation of Purity
Hex Breaker

Nature's Renewal makes all of these skills obsolete. I hardly think enchantments and hexes are overpowered enough to make NR necessary to balance them, do you? In Team Arenas nobody runs Renewal, and yet nobody has a problem dealing with enchantments and hexes.

rii · Jul 31, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Whats wrong with not using hexes enchants>? In fact, im gonna do it this afternoon, but i think it could turn to be quite a strong build. And what youve posted above is true, im waiting for a nerf just as much as you are, but for know, your just going to have to weather the storm.

Neo-LD · Jul 31, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

The point is that NR is just one skill but is hoses so many perfectly good skills and strategies. Any enchanting or hexing strategy is rendered nearly useless by it - with almost no way to combat it.

The way Id fix it is to slap it with an elite tag and make the "destroy all enchantments/hexes" part come when it ends or dies. This might make interesting ranger builds intentionally going for 0 wilderness for the munimum duration of NR, but hey T - 30 seconds (until everything gets destroyed) is alot more fair than 5. Other anti-H/E spells need to be buffed. Maybe Remove Hex's cooldown goes down and cast time gets cut. Rend Es penelty gets reduced to -20 or -30 etc etc.

Eder · Jul 31, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van the Warrior

just use distracting shot or something on the ranger...i mean geeze im a spirit spammer and it feels to me like days laying down spirits mid combat or choke the crap out of him with choking gas + oath shot

So your advice is to use Choking Gas - a *spell* interrupt - to interrupt a *bow attack* and a *nature ritual*?

That's even less effective than relying on a 3/4 casting time skill (Distracting Shot) to interrupt a 0 casting time skill (Oath Shot).

Warskull · Jul 31, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Now I see what the big demand for +15% damage "always" is about in GW's. I used to run with "while enchanted" items, but, now have moved to "above 50%" and "below 50%" health weapons/equipment. It does mess up my W/Mo build though since I relied a lot on Balthazar's Spirit for practically unlimited energy while getting hit. But, as someone said now I can use a stance in place of that to replenish my energy just about as fast.

I really don't believe the DEVS wanted NR to be as affective and overpowering as it is, guess no one saw this exploit in beta and it got overlooked, but, hopefully they will now take a hard look at it and "nerf it in the bud with the famous nerf bat".

I'm pretty sure there will be continued "nerfing" in the future as with all mmorpgs or mmos to bring balance and eqaulity back into the game.

Actually, until recently natures renewal only stripped the top enchantment. It was a few patches ago where they changed renewal to strip all enchantments and that is when you saw the huge spike in rangers.

Margrave Achilles · Jul 31, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

A second thought on the NR 'ownage' what if it only prevented one of the two? Hexes or Enchantments. It would certainly be more balanced to the skills of the monk class. Being that it requires two skills to remove conditions and hexes. maybe two spirits to nul' hexes and enchantments. My thoughts

Creed · Aug 01, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Natures renewal effects the following skills:

Necromancer:

Blood:
Awaken the blood. [Enchantment]
Blood renewal. [Enchantment]
Blood sacrifice. [Enchantment]
Blood is power. [Enchantment]
Dark bond. [Enchantment]
Dark fury. [enchantment]
Demonic flesh. [Enchantment]
Life sipheon. [Hex]
Life transfer. [Elite Hex]
Mark of subversion. [Hex]
Order of pain. [Enchantment]
Order of the Vampire. [Elite Enchantment]
Soul Leech. [Elite Hex]

Curses:
Barbs. [Hex]
Defile flesh. [Hex]
Faintheartedness. [Hex]
Insidious parasite. [Hex]
Malaise. [Hex]
Mark of pain. [Hex]
Parasitic Bond. [Hex]
Price of failure. [Hex]
Rigor mortis. [Hex]
Shadow of fear. [Hex]
Soul Barbs. [hex]
Spinal Shivers. [Hex]
Spitful Spirit. [Elite Hex]
Suffering. [Hex]
Weaken Armour. [Hex]
Wither. [Hex]

Death:
Aura of the Lich. [Elite Enchantment]
Dark Aura. [Enchantment]
Death Nova. [Enchantment]
Malign Intervention. [Hex]
Tainted flesh. [Elite enchantment]
Veretas aura. [Enchantment]
__________________________________________________ _______

Monk:

Devine Favor:
Aura of the Faith. [Elite enchantment]
Blessed Aura. [Enchantment]
Divine boon. [Enchantment]
Divine intervention. [Enchantment]
Divine spirit. [Enchantment]
Peace and Harmony. [Elite enchantment]
Spell Breaker. [Elite enchantment]
Unyeilding Aura. [Elite enchantment]
Watchful spirit. [Enchantment]

Healing:
Healing Breeze. [Enchantment]
Healing Hands. [Elite enchantment]
Healing seed. [Enchantment]
Live vicariously. [Enchantment]
Mending. [Enchantment]
Vigorous Spirit. [Enchantment]

Monk General:
Essence Bond. [Enchantment]
Holy veil. [Enchantment]
Succor. [Enchantment]
Vengence. [Enchantment]

Protection:
Aegis. [Enchantment]
Amity. [Elite Hex]
Guardian. [Enchantment]
Life Attunment. [Enchantment]
Life Barrier. [Elite Enchantment]
Life Bond. [Enchantment]
Mark of Protection. [Elite Enchantment]
Pacificm. [Hex]
Protective Bond. [Enchantment]
Protective spirit. [Enchantment]
Reversal of Fortune. [Enchantment]
Sheild of Defelction. [Elite Enchantment]
Sheild of Regeneration. [Elite Enchantment]
Sheilding Hands. [Enchantment]
Vital Blessing. [Enchantment]

Smiting:
Balthazars aura. [Enchantment]
Balthazars Spirit. [Enchantment]
Holy wrath. [Enchantment]
Judges insight. [Enchantment]
Retribution. [Enchantment]
Sheild of Judgment [Elite Enchantment]
Strenght of Honor. [Enchantment]
Zealots Fire. [Enchantment]

I could ramble on and post the skills effected for each class, and i might just do if i get bored and come edit this post... but there is a clear problem with NR. Look at how many skills it effects for each one of these classes.

Not only does it remove the Enchantment / Hex. [That's the bearable part of the skill].

It doubles the cast time on those very same skills for 126 seconds. (with 12 in wilderness survival.) Rediculas.

i like it · Aug 01, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

People im sorry but this is too obvious. Meteor showwer on the spiritss and there gone. Or just kill them

Desco · Aug 01, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by i like it

People im sorry but this is too obvious. Meteor showwer on the spiritss and there gone. Or just kill them

But the enchantments and hexes have already been stripped at that point, and another one is just 10 seconds away.

nguyenmb · Aug 01, 2005, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creed

Natures renewal effects the following skills:

Necromancer:

Blood:

...

Strenght of Honor. [Enchantment]
Zealots Fire. [Enchantment]

Hmm, Do you want me to list the number of skills that Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Distracting Blow, Savage Slash, Blackout, Leech Signet, and Cry of Frustration prevent people from using / and or counter? (and these don't even let them get those skills off)

It's also a funny coincidence that these skills listed also counter Nature's renewal. If you want to bring in a build that heavily relies on enchantments, be sure to adequately bring 2-3 people that can interupt skills. (4 if you want to be able to prevent NR from 2vs1 situations). Air eles alone with glyph of energy + gale, can prevent nature's renewal while still mantaining their dps. Just be sure to coordinate and have the interupters on the rangers.

Schorny · Aug 01, 2005, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by i like it

People im sorry but this is too obvious. Meteor showwer on the spiritss and there gone. Or just kill them

lol
please read the thread before posting. killing nr isn't a solution because "THE HARM IS DONE WHEN IS APPEARS".

And meteor shower to kill the spirits... only against a weak team that stack them on one place, but good teams spread them.

and for all the others:
you cannot deny a ranger team from laying down nr. oh, you can, indeed, but your damage output would be horrible.

you need a few people just watching all the ranger for casting spirits. every ranger can cast it, so you really need to watch ALL of them. Now you are down at least one man (but I really doubt one man can watch ALL enemies). Now imagine the ranger team is clever. They hide behind a rock, etc for casting the spirit. Now what are you going to do? How do you notice this?

atm the reliable solution against nr is not using enchants. and this is a really bad solution.

to interrupt something you need time, you need to have an overview etc. but to cast nr you really need nothing, not even points in ws.

We are also running nr, because it is so powerful. Look at the top guilds, most are running nr and/or no enchants. if even the top guilds don't try to prevent nr from being cast, how can 'normal' guys like me do it? If you want to have success in tombs, you can't use enchants. This should change.

wheel · Aug 01, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

This is exactly the wrong mindset!

There is lots of perfectly serviceable enchantment/hex hate in the game already. If my count is right:

Shatter Hex
Inspired Hex
Shatter Enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Convert Hexes
Smite Hex
Remove Hex
Drain Enchantment
Strip Enchantment
Rend Enchantments
Desecrate Enchantment
Well of the Profane
Lingering Curse
Soul Barbs
Melandru's Arrows
Chilblains
Dwayna's Kiss
Holy Veil
Purge Signet
Contemplation of Purity
Hex Breaker

Nature's Renewal makes all of these skills obsolete. I hardly think enchantments and hexes are overpowered enough to make NR necessary to balance them, do you? In Team Arenas nobody runs Renewal, and yet nobody has a problem dealing with enchantments and hexes.

Nature's Renewal makes a lot more than those skills obsolete. Try all enchantments. Hex removal is just fine the way it is. It's enchantments that needs buffing. Out of the list of skills that actually remove enchantments (from your target, not yourself or your ally or whatever like some of the skills you erroneously listed), we have:

Shatter Enchantment 15 en, 1 sec cast, 25 sec recharge
Drain Enchantment 10 en, 1 sec cast, 25 sec recharge
Inspired Enchantment 10 en, 1 sec cast, (20 sec recharge)
Strip Enchantment 10 1 20
Lingering Curse 25 3 10
Rend Enchantments 10 3 30
Well of the Profane 25 3 10
Nature's Renewal 5 5 60

Compared to say hex removal..
Shatter Delusions 5 1/4 10
Shatter Hex 15 1 10
Inspired Hex 5 1 (20)
Purge Signet N/A 3 3
Contemplation of Purity 5 1/4 5
Remove Hex 5 2 5
Convert Hexes 15 2 20
Smite Hex 5 1 15

When you look at enchantment removal, the energy cost and recast times for multiple enchantment removing skills is very very high. Especially compared to the cast times/energy costs to recast those enchantments. Especially compared to the cost of hex removal. The only viable enchantment removal skill is Nature's Renewal, which is grossly overpowered because with Oath Shot, it will be popping out every 10 seconds, rendering over half the skills in this game useless. It's not that NR can't be countered--it can, by not using any long lasting enchantments or long lasting hexes or whatever. You simply have to play by new rules. Why even have enchantments in this game when you have skills like Nature's Renewal and Oath shot rendering them useless?

wheel · Aug 01, 2005, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creed

Natures renewal effects the following skills:

Necromancer: a lot of skills
Monk: a lot more skills

I could ramble on and post the skills effected for each class, and i might just do if i get bored and come edit this post... but there is a clear problem with NR. Look at how many skills it effects for each one of these classes.

Not only does it remove the Enchantment / Hex. [That's the bearable part of the skill].

It doubles the cast time on those very same skills for 126 seconds. (with 12 in wilderness survival.) Rediculas.

And that's just for those two classes! Elementalists and Mesmers have enchantments and hexes too!

Creed · Aug 01, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by nguyenmb

Hmm, Do you want me to list the number of skills that Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Distracting Blow, Savage Slash, Blackout, Leech Signet, and Cry of Frustration prevent people from using / and or counter? (and these don't even let them get those skills off)

It's also a funny coincidence that these skills listed also counter Nature's renewal. If you want to bring in a build that heavily relies on enchantments, be sure to adequately bring 2-3 people that can interupt skills. (4 if you want to be able to prevent NR from 2vs1 situations). Air eles alone with glyph of energy + gale, can prevent nature's renewal while still mantaining their dps. Just be sure to coordinate and have the interupters on the rangers.

Here's the problem with your theory:

Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Distracting Blow, Savage Slash, Blackout, Leech Signet, and Cry of Frustration. All decent interupt skills. Yet unlike NR they cannot effect you while you're outside the attack range. Nor can they strip enchantments while also making all those same skills take twice as long to cast in the future. Go ahead and list all the skills which are affected in this way by those afore mentioned disruption skills. You wont find one.

The simple fact is with skills like balanced stance, and many other stances you can force through NR. Cry of fustration might just work, pity NR can be dropped from outside your attack range and still strip enchantments, and cause all of it's effects before you get the chance to use CoF.

All a team needs are 2 primary rangers and 1-2 backup rangers and you will be unable to stop them from using NR. 2 primary rangers using oath shot and running NR, and the back up rangers for if/when the primaries are over whelmed.

As for others remarks about a singular Metoer storm wiping out the spirits, keep living in dream land. Spirits will be spread out, no team will be moronic enough to put all their spirits in one place. And even funnier would be the fact you beleive one singular meteor storm will destroy spirits. Fertile season anyone?

Thom · Aug 01, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

First thing, this strategy wasn't popular in Alpha testing due partly to last minute modifications of rituals and late balancing of rangers. Nature renewal wasn't "discovered" until a few weeks into release by my count. Now everyone has to build with NR in mind.

I think effects are being overstated. First, to drop every 10 seconds you need a character that isn't doing much else for damage or multiple characters taking time and multiple skill slots. I have won enough early matches with henchies and drops to know that 7 effective players can do a fine job with damage, but there is still a near 12% disadvantage if a player/s has to focus on spamming NR. The real winner is when you give up on your enchants and hexes and the opponent can use their spammers for damage or interrupt--you shut your own build down and began digging your grave.

The other disadvantage for the team running renewal is the tendency to avoid protection. Protection is useful even with enchantments being cancelled every 10 seconds. You want to avoid enchantments with long duration, long recharge and long casting time, but this leaves several skills in the 10-30sec recharge, 0-1 cast and 5-15 duration that are still feasible with NR spam. Reversal of Fortune, healing seed, healing hands (yes hh), Shielding hands, Guardian, Aegis and more can still be useable in a NR spamming environment as can hexes like diversion. Basically you can expect on average 1/2 of the spamming interval of usefulness for the enchant (so if they are spamming every 10 seconds, you expect 5 seconds. Things you want to avoid are spirit shackles and life bond/life barrier builds. Any prolonged hex/enchant will be removed and won't be worth reinstating.

While I believe many enchants are feasible against or while running Spirit spam, enchantment/hex dependant players need to limit those spells so that you can run efficiently without them. If one runs boon or life bond, also be ready to abandon those enchantments and go with a NR friendly strategy. Have 2-3 standard spammables on your bar so you have something to do when you aren't maintaining enchants. This is pretty straightforward with Boon bit tougher with bond. Same can be said for more stardard protection builds. Also--make sure one of your monks is NR friendly--you don't want 3 boonies.

I realize this is monk centered, but most of the ideas carry over to other classes: don't abandon enchantment/he strategies to account for NR, instead adjust these strategies to be aware of the NR environment. There are only two types of good teams, those that are running NR and those that are ready to run against it.

Xellos · Aug 01, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Beating it has never been the problem, it's that one skill can limit the meta-game in variety with one silly build.

MSecorsky · Aug 01, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desco

But the enchantments and hexes have already been stripped at that point, and another one is just 10 seconds away.

Not if the Ranger(s) spamming them are flopping on the deck like a flounder every time a meteor hits.

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

so your gonna continuously meteor them? ja, im sorry to say thats not gonna work. And dont say youll kill em with it, since they have 115al against meteors at choice..... the best way to beat nr is to build around it.