Curse

Hart · Aug 26, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

With Natures Renewal nerfed (yes, it needed to happen) and no information regarding changes to enchant and hex removal skills, it appears to me that the next big thing is going to be HEAVY enchantment and hex stacking.

I'm not talking 3-5 enchants or hexes; I'm talking 4-5 defensive enchantments with 3-4 cover enchantments on top of them such that Lingering is required in order to make ANY headway at all unless you want to Rend yourself to death, and single target enchantment removal is utterly trivial. I'm talking about two necromancers and two mesmers stacking 8-10 hexes on each and every individual member of the opposing party and watching them rot to death from degeneration.

I guess what I'm really talking about is an enviornment where there's no reason to even go into the Tombs unless you've got at least one necro with Lingering; this may not be a bad thing, as it gives all the necro players something beyond the horribly crippled Putrid to get them into a group. I don't know what's going to happen when the only effective means of mass hex and enchantment removal is suddenly pulled from the game, but I will say this; without a signifigant change to existing hex/enchant removal skills, the game is going to be balanced even more poorly than it already is; skill will equate to how well you can spike after lingering and how quickly the opposing team can reenchant your target.

The last thing to look at is Spell Breaker. In nerfing NR, ANet has removed the only truly effective counter for Spell Breaker and Obsidian Flesh. The other options are Well of the Profane which requires a corpse in the right spot which isn't eaten up by putrid, and Chillblains which is PBAoE - you've basically got to be touching the target. On the altar your only real option is.. well.. you don't have one. If the GH is seeded, spellbreakered and bodyblocked as he should be by a team using this tactic, a Chillblains necro won't be able to get physically close enough to Chillblains off the spellbreaker. Consider also that Chillblains is a 25 power spell and that a smart team will have a couple cover enchants on the GH and you'll quickly be able to count that out.

So, we're looking at a post-nerf game that involves using Well of the Profane to wipe Spellbreaker/Seed from the hero; it looks like you're going to need Putrid after all if you plan to hold the altar. Drop the seed and spellbreaker on your hero, prevent the opponent from using Well of the Profane to wipe the enchant and your hero can't be killed if your healers are even vaguely compotent.

I'll see you in the Tombs Saturday, so if you plan on coming don't forget your Lingering necro - I'll be stacking the heck out of every enchant and hex I can fit into a new build.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 26, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I was under the impression that under NR enchantments would cost twice as much to maintain, thereby making an enchantment cost 2 pips of energy regeneration. If such is the case, won't you only be able to maintain 2 enchantments at a time? I could be wrong on that and would appreciate any clarification if I'm wrong.
On the other hand, I entirely agree with your points on hexing. I honestly don't know what this is going to digress into, but if it's anything like team pvp (The only form of pvp that was relatively NR free), then we're in trouble. I could enter team PvP with my necro and drop more hexes than the opposing team could stop. Now, they could attempt to keep up with me using various hex removers, but that only turned it into a battle against degeneration for them, all the while the rest of my team is eating them alive.
The point is, without serious hex removal, won't Tombs (As stated by Hart) just turn into an all out hex fest? I hope this isn't true, but I suppose we'll see this weekend.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 26, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

The double cost to maintain enchantments mean nothing to those who are stacking all their maintained enchantments up to or past 10 energy degen. And since the maximum degen is 10..... anything beyond that means nothing.

Arathorn5000 · Aug 26, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I didn't see widespread use of NR in GvG this past month. Granted I'm not GvG'ing a ton, but seriously, I saw neither lots of NR spamming nor lots of enchant/hex stacking. I think if it becomes an easily replicated build/strategy, it may become the new FotM, but don't necessarily jump to conclusions.

Neo-LD · Aug 26, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

The way to fix this is to dramatically reduce the cost and cooldowns of all single-removal spells, and roll back their side effects accordingly. For example, strip E would cost 5, rehcarge in 5, and gain back 5-40 life. Several spells should be modded to remove 2-4 at a time without killing yourself in the process. There should also be spell which attack maintained enchantments directly, like Shatter E could say remove 2 echantments from target foe and 1 enchantment they were maintaining is dispelled. Costs 10 recharges in 8. Deals 20-40 damage for each Enchantment removed. Sadly, I have already gone thorough 1/2 of the E removal spells, LC and Chillblains are fine the way they are, Rend needs to inflict -20 not -40. THere needs to be about 5-10 new anti-E / anti-H spells introduced in the near future.

Or,one possible option for rend I just thought of is that rend could inflict the -40 on both the necro and the rended victim. Take that you healing ball-ers. -400.

Morganas · Aug 26, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Let's not forget that linger curse is block by hex breaker too, which isn't removed by chillblains, leaving your only enchant removal choices either one by one or rend to death.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 26, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Neo, I understand where you're going with the single skill removals, and I think that carries over to both hexes and enchantments. But keep in mind, that if the hex removal skills are buffed TOO much, you've just broken the hex killer in Nature's Renewal down to one shot spells. If you increase them too much, you kill the ability of mesmers/necromancers/hydromancers to wield their hexes effectively.

I don't mean to turn around and defend what I already stated I was afraid would happen, but what I mean to say is they have to find a more balanced approach. I always wanted Nature's Renewal to be broken into 2 different skills, where one killed and doubled cast times on enchantments, and the other did the same to hexes. The only catch is that they would both be elites. I just think that making hex removals too powerful eliminates the 3 classes stated above, but leaving them too weak will lead to degeneration death galore.

But as for enchantment removals, heck, I say you let there be as many of that as they want. I never had a problem with the enchantment removal aspect of Nature's Renewal. I hate friggin healing ball teams. =)

Zeru · Aug 26, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Lingering may have some use but going primary for it is simply silly. With fertile not going to be used much Necros will be able to do more sacrificing stuff but they're going to take a backseat as you can't chain putrids.

Healing Balls are not all powerful now though. They were back when essence bond triggered on life bond but now that it is fixed there are skills that can take healing balls down and still work well against other tombs teams. Well of the Profane is not one of them; it will still get owned by necrotic transversal unless there are multiple deaths.

Regular Enchant stacked teams on the other hand will be just as powerful as they were in the April Beta though I hope we will see some buffs to ER to compensate.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

i think convert hexes will get that much more popular. and if someone is stacking hexes you can always target them first. once theyre out of the way you can switch to monks.

either way even before NR i always thought you target teh mesmers fist >.<

Sarus · Aug 26, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

i think convert hexes will get that much more popular. and if someone is stacking hexes you can always target them first. once theyre out of the way you can switch to monks.

Very true. Before the NR craze and the death of hexes we would run up to 3 copies of convert hexes on our team. Right now it has no use. WIth NR balanced I'm sure you'll start to see it a lot more.

Schorny · Aug 26, 2005, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Very true. Before the NR craze and the death of hexes we would run up to 3 copies of convert hexes on our team. Right now it has no use. WIth NR balanced I'm sure you'll start to see it a lot more.

Yeah

Was a funny time when a monk yelled "CONVERT, CONVERT, CONVERT!!!!111oneeleven" I missed that

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 26, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

are we going to see more mesmer secondaries? hex breaker to the rescue... I have no idea what is going to be to the rescue vs spellbreaker though.

Neo-LD · Aug 26, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

but hex breaker got nerfed too.

Morganas · Aug 26, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Hex breaker wasn't nerfed, the change makes no practical difference.

Shatter though oh god shatter

Shrapnel_Magnet · Aug 26, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Nature's Renewal wasn't so much nerfed - it was fixed.

Hart · Aug 26, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Nature's Renewal wasn't so much nerfed - it was fixed.

A rose by any other name.. it's substantially less powerful, and while I agree that this needed to happen, it's been nerfed; whether the nerf was necessary or not isn't the focus of this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Very true. Before the NR craze and the death of hexes we would run up to 3 copies of convert hexes on our team. Right now it has no use. WIth NR balanced I'm sure you'll start to see it a lot more.

The problem being that Convert Hexes is a TERRIBLE skill; it has a long casting time, a high cost AND a long recharge. The side effect of using it, +10 armor per hex for x seconds, is potentially useful but in practice pointless. You'll only see a benefit from the armor bonus if you're facing a team with both hexes and damage, in which case one of the two is inconsequential in comparison to the other. I'd much prefer a 'Purge Conditions' for hexes that let you spend 10 power to wipe all of a targets hexes every 30s with no additional benefit; at least then I can heal and remove hexes at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Let's not forget that linger curse is block by hex breaker too, which isn't removed by chillblains, leaving your only enchant removal choices either one by one or rend to death.

..or throw a cover enchant like Parasitic Bond first if your target is Me/? or ?/Me. We're talking basic necro tactics here. I'd say the weakness of Lingering is it's long cast time; it's pretty readily distracted or diversioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet_GnomeSmasher

The double cost to maintain enchantments mean nothing to those who are stacking all their maintained enchantments up to or past 10 energy degen. And since the maximum degen is 10..... anything beyond that means nothing.

What it said. Also, maintaining your power at -10 energy degen due to enchantments isn't as hard as you might think; Blessed Signet + Mantra of Inscriptions will keep you even on its own if you've got enough points in the right attributes, and the occasional Energy Drain or Energy Tap can put you in the black. Granted, if you've got a good drain mesmer on you you're SOL on the energy management side, but that's true of any monk build.

zehly · Aug 27, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Me/N with lingering is awesome!

Alas, behold the rise of the beloved Necromancer.

Wouldn't it be sweet if Martyr would remove hexes too?

Bast · Aug 27, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Hex breaker wasn't nerfed, the change makes no practical difference.

Shatter though oh god shatter

It does make a difference. Now instead of recasting it every 60 seconds you have to recast it every 20 seconds. Granted, this is irrelevant if you're getting hexes on you in quick succession, but if you're getting the occasional one, then this is a big deal. Now Hex Breaker requires more heavy point investment (instead of sticking whatever you had left in Domination as a Mo/Me) to be more beneficial than some other hex removal options