Curse

Myodato · Aug 26, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

In my experience of random arena, it doesn't matter how many monks a team does/doesn't have, because you'll never manage to get your whole team attacking the same person.

In randoms today I was trying out an earth ele for fun, including the marvelous earthquake. By pure chance, I drew a team of 2 aftershock w/e's and a monk. Was so happy, I screamed in guild chat. Anyway, the point is the two warriors attacked different targets (neither of which were the monk), and neither managed to use aftershock even when I called earthquake on the targets they were ineptly hitting away at. Our monk of course spent the entire match being chased, so no idea if he did anything useful.

In randoms, what you draw means nothing; it's who you draw.

Nexx · Aug 26, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I'm getting the impression that in random PvP, one needs to be self-sufficient (meaning equiping some form of self-heal & condition/hex removal) but I find that almost a bad thing. It'll be great for everyone to have some form of self-heal and condition removal but wouldn't that take away from their original class making them weaker overall as a group?

Take for instance a warrior. You'll be using 2 slots at least (for healing and condition) leaving you with 6. If you factor in rez that's 5 slots left, 4 if you add an ensnaring skill like hamstring or sprint. So you have 4 skills to use to maximize max damage output. Now, multiply a weaker version of the class by 4. Is that a good thing? Are we suggesting that a self-sufficient group of 4 although weaker overall can win against a more specialized group with a monk that does all the healing/condition removal?

gabe99 · Aug 27, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

today in 4v4 team arena
my team 3 R/x +1 W/mo vs. 4 monk team
long fight but we won

my guild goes into the team arena a lot w/o a monk... there are lots of ways to win without a monk.. be creative

Sythion · Aug 27, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I'm assuming the original poster is referring to random arenas.

The problem random runs into is that healing is as essential as dealing damage. Since healing is more efficient then dealing damage, it could be even more important. Because mana regens so quickly, monks are inexhaustable healing machines (unless you are specced to exhaust them). Since you cannot wear them out, its a matter of dealing damage faster then the other team can heal. If you have no monk, this is very difficult. You have to take their monk out quickly.

You can either be a monk yourself, and never worry about it, or you can design a build assuming you will not have a monk. This means you need a way to deal with the monk (enchantment removal, energy denial, burst damage, knockdown, interrupts, and crippling then team targeting against the monk does wonders). You also need to have some healing yourself, but not enough to impede how much damage you can do. In the end though, your success is going to depend more on the mix of the group you get then your own skills. So try and make a build that mixes well with as many groups as possible. Be a monk if you want to win

Jczech · Aug 27, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I had a bit of good luck in the random arena Team consisted of a Hammer warrior, a death necromancer (I think it was death..) a protection monk, and myself, a heal/prot monk.

The first 10 matches were easy - they'd go for a monk, we'd pile on loads of protections until they switched, then we'd switch, etc. Some didn't even focus fire, which didn't really do any damage.

It got much harder once we started facing against guilds. Most memorably one mesmer would completely strip me while the warrior would immediately use blackout. One thing the warrior forgot is sprint though, because he couldn't catch up in any decent amount of time for blackout to wear off and me to be protected under layers of enchantments again.

We only finally lost to (big surprise) a team much like our own, two protection/healer types, a warrior, and an air elementalist. That match went for almost 20 minutes before we forfeited and sat down. Although some of our matches vs 2 monks went on for a long time until they purposely gave up (some shouting 'no free faction for you' - no free faction? what's that 50 for then?

)

But anyway, I'm going to have to say two monks worked much better than any other combination of monks. Even when we had to take them down slowly, only to have them raise their monk with dp, then kill him again and again until he was useless. Those battles took awhile, but we still won with 2 monks over most other things.

smurfhunter · Aug 27, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

ive noticed in random arenas, no offense, there are plenty of 'noobs'. lots of people with builds that would make you want to cry/laugh. so in that sense im guessing a monk doesnt mean much.

its useless to argue over the value of a monk if you simply say 'they suck'. its like playing a game with no rules. otoh if you assume a monk has at least some basic skill, then it opens the door for a discussion on strategies, which was what i was getting at.

and Jczech, that build is incredibly annoying. to beat that kind of team you need a good monk that can last for a decent amount of time, and then slowly work at the monks energy. sadly once a group like that loses a monk the rest drop really fast.

and i hate refering back to my team as if it was the godliest thing on earth, which it wasnt, but the battles we had were mostly < 5 mins, and we usually made around 20-30 before losing to some group. (hey thats whats fun about team arenas - you lose you can pop right back in

)

and we had 1 monk

just goes to show it all depends on skill

but no monks is a bad, bad idea.

Sythion · Aug 27, 2005, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

and Jczech, that build is incredibly annoying. to beat that kind of team you need a good monk that can last for a decent amount of time, and then slowly work at the monks energy. sadly once a group like that loses a monk the rest drop really fast.

That's why energy denial is superior to blackout builds. Easier to use, more versatile.

QuixotesGhost · Aug 27, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

That's why energy denial is superior to blackout builds. Easier to use, more versatile.

I'd say blackout is superior against single monk teams and energy denial against multiple monks.

Morganas · Aug 27, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Energy denial shutdowns almost instantly and as long as you want it to, AND you can do other stuff, like spam diversion on another teammate, while you keep it out. A shutdown mesmer should NEVER take blackout, that's reserved for warriors and illusionary weapon mesmers.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 27, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

No it's more like competant player dominance. Any idiotic team of 4 players should be able to effectively ruin a monk with no cross-healing almost instantly if any of them designed their builds to deal with what you see in the randoms: self sufficience, damage, and anticaster, if possible. If that monk happens to live, well, he has a good build. Congratulate his good build with some faction for your inevitable death.

Nightwish · Aug 27, 2005, 09:25 AM // 09:25

If a losing team's last standing person is a monk, that monk is usually a farming monk or a monk built to tank and self heal only :P

Nexx · Aug 27, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

So in short, monks are required to win. We agree that monks are very powerful in the 4v4 environment (random or not)... and that if you don''t have one, you are screwed, right?

All these victory posts about my group using only x amount of monks to win are great but it'll also be cool too if there were posts where your side didn't have a monk yet still managed to win against half competent 1/2 monk teams?

QUESTION: If you're building a PvP with the idea that your team won't have a monk, how many slots do you dedicate to self healing/condition/hex removal and rez? Would it hurt your overall character?

stoned bob · Aug 27, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

the thing is if u dont take any skills to heal/protect ureself then yes u will need a monk but if u create a good build u can easily win without a monk, if a team has 4 monks they often can do to little dmg if ure team have the right build

Sythion · Aug 28, 2005, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexx

So in short, monks are required to win. We agree that monks are very powerful in the 4v4 environment (random or not)... and that if you don''t have one, you are screwed, right?

All other things being equal, including player skill, then yes. Monks are required to dominate. Their only strong counter, mesmers, do not have enough self sufficience to live like a monk can without monk support, and are usually the second highest priority targets.

Winning with a team without a monk is like winning a race with a flat tire. You can only do it if you manage to make the other teams tire flat very fast :P

Neo-LD · Aug 28, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

2 monk teams are pretty terrible unless one's a smiter, though I do imagine they could beat a zero monk team by virtue of the fact that as long as the team has healing of any kind, they will have enough time to rez the other monk and win. Even then, considering the no monk team will probably have at least two guys set up to counter monks, it will be iffy.

Tell that to the idiot savants

ICURADik · Aug 28, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Yea, I keep running into variants of the 2 Mo 2 War builds. It's not too terribly hard to stop with Shieling Hands and Guardian, but it's definately scary if they get a lucky double knockdown thru guardian.

Phades · Aug 28, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Thats what warrior cunning is for.

Mhydrian · Aug 28, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

in 4 on 4 arenas monks are gods amongst men. There are alot of effective smite and healer builds that own everything. In 8 vs 8 maybe monks arent so powerful but in 4 on 4 monks are unstoppable. The bad onces go down easier than the good ones, but a good monk forget it. They can just run around all day long, and stop for a split second and put down a huge heal on anyone.

Right now in 4 on 4 arenas. Enchantment builds and monks destroy. Most enchantment builds are monk based as well. And a good rule of thumb is unless you bring an enchant strip your team wont have one, noone brings it. And really against heavy enchant teams a single enchantment stripper wil not even dent a monk who is heavy enchant based.

Sythion · Aug 28, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

No one brings enchantment strip because enchantment strip has ridiculously large cooldown time and cannot actually stop an enchant build. The one exception is rend enchantments which still has a ridiculous cooldown, and HURTS you.

Schorny · Aug 29, 2005, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

No one brings enchantment strip because enchantment strip has ridiculously large cooldown time and cannot actually stop an enchant build.

So let the monks take Drain Enchantment

I really love it. It is nothing to shutdown the enemy, but it helps quite a lot.

With 2 Monks you need to act more offensivly. For example let the Monks take Drain Enchantment and Energy Drain. So you can shutdown the enemy's Monk.