Curse

Nexx · Aug 26, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

I've only played a few games (200~) but I've noticed that teams that do not have a monk will lose most of the time. In games where there are two opposing monk, it's almost guaranteed that you can't win if you don't have a monk on your side.

So, aside from building your own group [which could take forever in some cases], how can a PUG group without a monk win against a PUG team with a monk? Can a PUG group even win when there are two 2 monks on the other team?

Fulgraque · Aug 26, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Blackout Warrior can easily get rid of a monk. Just let your other teammates 1v1 the other ones ^^

IPlayGuildWars · Aug 26, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

A clever E/Mo disguised as a monk usually has more success

Sarus · Aug 26, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

If you have no monks and the other team has 2, I can't imagine you being able to win unless you're running monk secondaries that have healing capabilities. You would have to have an incredibly quick and efficient offense to be able to take out their monks before you loose any of your players. Against a decent two monk team this is going to be really really difficult if not impossible.

thekolman · Aug 26, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

When I 4v4 with my guild we usually run with 2 monks now due to all of the ranger/warrior heavy teams. It's very difficult for 1 monk to survive against a team with 2 or 3 decent rangers and warriors. I find that 2 competant damage dealers is plenty, even against other 2 monk teams.

jdwoody · Aug 26, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I once saw a 4 monk team in the random 4x4, my team had no monks, we got squashed!

Nexx · Aug 26, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Apparently monks these days are celebrities. Everywhere I go (PvE or PvP) everyone is spamming LF monk. Oh well, I'm a noob. I should join a guild if I want to play PvP and win. There's no middle ground. You can't just go random and expect to win. I guess being a casual player and losing do indeed belong in the same sentence while PvPing.

Ensign · Aug 26, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

A team of 4 attackers should be able to just run right over a single Monk. Your team will also likely be better suited for self-survival than a team designed with a Monk, so as long as you can blow away their Monk you actually have a pretty good matchup.

Against two Monks? Extend the hand. Though a good one Monk team tends to have an advantage over a good two Monk team in a direct matchup - the one Monk team will usually have better disruptive elements to shut down Monks than a two Monk team that needs to rely more heavily upon pure offense.

Peace,
-CxE

Neo-LD · Aug 26, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

So basically

0 > 1 > 2 > 0.

In terms of number of monks.

I usually prefer 1 monk teams because the other 3 players can be part offense part defense (disruption rangers, mesmers, earth eles) But 1 monk teams with just 3 attackers arent that great.

DarkAynjil · Aug 26, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekolman

When I 4v4 with my guild we usually run with 2 monks now due to all of the ranger/warrior heavy teams. It's very difficult for 1 monk to survive against a team with 2 or 3 decent rangers and warriors. I find that 2 competant damage dealers is plenty, even against other 2 monk teams.

Have you tried taking a non-spike ele?
Air Magic has blinding flash ~10 seconds of blind for 16 air
Enervating Charge for weakness

Earth has WaM and WaE

Water has WaH

Got a warrior pounding a monk? Blind him. Rangers ruining your day? Blind/Aegis/Guardian/etc.

Nexx · Aug 26, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Got it. >_<

Just a thought: does anybody else see this as a problem? Are monks required to win? Seriously...

Morganas · Aug 26, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

So basically

0 > 1 > 2 > 0.

This is absolutely correct in my experience. A good zero monk team prepares to operate knowing they have no monk (meaning they don't take soft targets, or those soft targets prepare to tank, i.e. mesmer with distortion). I've run with zero monk teams lots of times, and as long as you talk with everyone in your group about skills, it is very effective.

They also prepare to knock out the monk entirely in the first few seconds, which is very easy if you know how, either energy denial or blackout can do the trick.

2 monk teams are pretty terrible unless one's a smiter, though I do imagine they could beat a zero monk team by virtue of the fact that as long as the team has healing of any kind, they will have enough time to rez the other monk and win. Even then, considering the no monk team will probably have at least two guys set up to counter monks, it will be iffy.

Edit: Just wanted to add that in 4v4, zero monk is definitely the way to go if you're certain your teamates are skilled. There's so much more you can do with a 4 player offensive build then a 3 player one.

Man With No Name · Aug 26, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

The only reason I tend to see teams with 1 monk or more dominate 4x4 -- is because of three things...

1- The lack of quality Domination/Inspiration Mesmers
2- Necros that don't bring Enchantment Removal -- whom instead bring a skillbar full of warrior-hate hexes ( when 2 is usually enough -- SoF and Enfeeble )
3- And finally the way people don't bring enchantment removal in general or even counters to other problematic things like stances.

Examples for removal include: Rend Enchantments, Strip Enchantment, Lingering Curse on the Necro line and Shatter Enchantment, Inspired Enchantment on the Mesmer line -- these skills are essential as far as I'm concerned

Most of the Mesmers I see are either using:

- The one trick pony Fragility build

The fact that 1 skill can make the whole build useless is enough to not use it IMO...

- Illusionary Weaponry

As far as I'm concerned if you like to play RPG's by making purposefully flawed characters (a Dwarfen Diplomat, for example :P ) -- then Illusionary Weaponry is for you. Your basically making a disadvantaged Warrior clone -- since it relies on the enchantment not being removed.

It can't knockdown or stack conditions and for what some fancy armor ignoring damage..??

All the people I target first have the bare minimum 60AL -- and I generally hit for the same amount of damage or more...

I recently landed a team that consisted of:
- 1 W/N ( me )
- 2 Mesmers ( Mes/R and Mes/N maybe... )
- 1 Monk

The Mesmers just drained the opposition dry and blinded any Warriors/Rangers with Signet of Midnight. Leaving me free to chop through the soft targets with ease

We had a nice run, which reminds me.....I'll have to finish that Mes/Nec someday

Morganas · Aug 26, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Yeah it irks me how many terrible mesmers there are running around with IW, conjure phantasm, and phantom pain, just random assortments of damage skills with no synergy to speak of.

Necs are even worse, I'd be happy if "warrior hating curse builds" were what most of them did, that's actually extremely useful situationally (not arguing that they shouldn't be monk haters as well). Most of them though just stack themselves with life draining attacks and shadow strike and end up being two bit nukers, completely ignoring all the awesome abilities nec has. Strangely enough W/Necs know how to use the nec class better then necs do most of the time.

zehly · Aug 26, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Everytime my N/Me goes into the randoms and there are no monks on our team, but they have monks... the other team doesn't get healed by that monk ^_^

Here is my strategy:

If the monk is spending time healing himself, or another monk, then that monk is not healing another player.

*EDIT*

Just as there are ways for a character to heal themselves, there are ways to prevent them from healing themselves. In the case of a monk, who is in many respects a dedicated healer, it makes it that much easier to stop them from doing it. My advice: Tie him/her up.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

im a little lost how no monks is better than one monk. ive played many times on teams with 1 monks and we beat every team with 0 monks. while they gang your monk its pretty easy to beat up on their softer targets. the only way this can possibly work is if they res really well, but that can be matched easily by comparable resing on the team with 1 monk.

with 4 attackers you will undoubtedly drop the monk, but you will also undoubtedly lose at least one target. leaving the attackers worse off once they have been resd because most groups tend to get really disorganized once a monk drops/is resd.

im talking from experience(s) in a 2 axe warrior, one ranger, one monk group.

Man With No Name · Aug 26, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

As fine as that method is -- what about a scenario with two monks or even three..??

OK -- so you do damage to the first monk -- his teammate heals it.....what do you do then..?? A bit more damage only for it to be healed..??

All this time your teammates who were silly enough to not bring enchantment removal are trying to kill the other Monk -- but can't since he's a Smite Monk with Shield Of Judgement or a Protection Monk with Mark of Protection or a combination of both, etc

Hell, lets not even restrict it just the Monk skillset...how about Ele's with Armor of Earth, Warrior enchantments, Smiting teams and all the other hundreds of combinations that the system allows...

I still favor enchantment removal for the whole good of the TEAM, sometimes brute force simply doesn't "cut it"

Morganas · Aug 26, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Well most 0 monk teams in arena are just people who random invited and never discussed how to take advantage of their monkless state.

No monk is better then 1 monk because the shutdown potential of one character can negate the healing abilities of a monk entirely.

As for "beating up softer targets," you don't HAVE softer targets if you're monkless. You only take ranger and warrior primaries, and only use soft classes if they have immense defensive capabilities, like earth eles or illusion mesmers.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man With No Name

As fine as that method is -- what about a scenario with two monks or even three..??

OK -- so you do damage to the first monk -- his teammate heals it.....what do you do then..?? A bit more damage only for it to be healed..??

All this time your teammates who were silly enough to not bring enchantment removal are trying to kill the other Monk -- but can't since he's a Smite Monk with Shield Of Judgement or a Protection Monk with Mark of Protection or a 105 Monk ( lame but they are common now.. ), etc

I still favor enchantment removal for the whole good of the TEAM, sometimes brute force simply doesn't "cut it"

2 monk builds are like a house of cards, whittle away at it until one gives. then they all drop in seconds.

3 monks is an annoyance build. definetly wont win. when i played we had a r/n with strip enchant, helped against any really annoying buffs.

the beuty of axe warriors is they can apply pressure even past alot of buffs, notably protective spirit. attacking 33% faster and doing 10% a hit is nothing to sneeze at

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Well most 0 monk teams in arena are just people who random invited and never discussed how to take advantage of their monkless state.

No monk is better then 1 monk because the shutdown potential of one character can negate the healing abilities of a monk entirely.

As for "beating up softer targets," you don't HAVE softer targets if you're monkless. You only take ranger and warrior primaries, and only use soft classes if they have immense defensive capabilities, like earth eles or illusion mesmers.

im sorry but if you mean a 4 warrior build, those get laughed out of town in seconds. the most they ever did was drop the monk.

i have played against many monkless builds in *team* arenas. as to soft targets, i dont mean an ele in ascalon armor, hey even an earth ele with good armor is soft when you have an axe warrior and a ranger on it. at least from my experiance, earth eles do not tank for long without backup. saying a 4 man team has no soft targets is simply wrong - if that were true no one would need monks.

*edit* yes tanks can be soft targets too. try this: go into random arenas as a warrior and run in alone

see how long you last.