Curse

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

[edit]
After getting crossfire for mixing up a spell i might as well state it as it obviously was not made clear while writing the whole thing:

This guide is in no way meant to be perfect and a godgiven answer. It is meant as a steady flow of changes coming from YOUR input to improve it alltogether. I'm sure i missed a lot of details and made some mistakes. Point them out. FRIENDLY. Speak friendly or don't speak at all.

This is meant as a community work and reference guide. ONCE IT IS DONE. It is not done yet.

/another edit as of 11:28 AM:
Could you please state if you don't agree on having your posts edited into the opening post when you don't want them to appear there? I will post them as a quote so everyone knows who said it.

As of the time above i will assume you agree on editing it in to complete the guide if you don't state otherwise. It just is highly ineffective to ask everyone if i'm allowed to.

Back to the topic [/edit]

Welcome, welcome.

As you all have noticed the new flavor of the month is your average smiter and this has lead - as allways - to a loud uproar and screams to nerf it.This thread is meant to give some insights on how smiting works and how awfully easy it is to counter.

So basically, let us start by summarizing what kind of offensive spells your average Smiter uses or could use:

[ Energy | Rechargetime | Casting Time ] - Spellname - Effect
All values are based on attributes in the range 1-12

Direct Attacks and simple AoE Attacks:

[ E05 | R10 | C01 ] - Banish - 20-49 Damage
[ E00 | R25 | C02 ] - Bane Signet -26-50 Damage if attacking -> knocked down
[ E05 | R30 | C02 ] - Symbol of Wrath - For 5 seconds 8-27 AoE Damage
[ E00 | R30 | C02 ] - Signet of Judgement - 15-63 Damage -> knocked down
[ E10 | R10 | C01 ] - Smite - 10-46 Damage if attacking -> 10-22 added damage
[ E05 | R08 | C01 ] - Holy Strike - 10-46 Damage if knocked down -> 10-34 added damage

Enchantments:

[ E25 | R15 | C01 ] - Balthazars Aura - 10 seconds 10-22 AoE Damage
[ E15 | R45 | C01 ] - Shield of Judgement - 8-18 seconds each attacker takes 5-41 damage and is knocked down.
[ E10 | R30 | C01 ] - Zealots Fire - Whenever a skill is used AOE damage of 5-37 near your target

I left out some minor spells which where absolutely useless for the average joe smiter build.

By reading it, most of those spells don't sound so great at all and none of which is stackable. What keeps your average smiter going is just a mere combination of one or two skills and due to the overall limited choice of alternatives in the smiting line, you'll no doubt see smiters use these. To name them:

Balthazars Aura (BA)
Zealots Fire (ZF)
And sometimes Shield of Judgement (ShoJ) as well as Signet of Judgement (SgoJ).

Of which i'd say Zealots Fire and Balthazars Aura are what is giving most PVPers a severe headache. So what can a smiter team possibly do and how does their killing actually worked.
Let's first seperate them into two types of smiters: One Time Casters and Spammers. Both will use BA and ZF to a severe degree.

Quote:

One Time Caster:
Basically has Monk as his/her primary class and will cast ZF on him/herself followed up by BA on a Warrior or another person who will try to stay as close as possible to an enemy. The One Time Caster often has enother duty to fulfill. For example the job of a healer or protector. Their damage is minor to the spammers damage but they serve the team other purposes. And their healing and protection will trigger Zealots Fire non the less.

His/her main damage is coming from BA and most of the time they are basic healers with the typical advantages and weaknesses.

Quote:

Spammer
The Spammer relies on a high energy pool and ways of regaining enough energy to fuel his pumping engine of damage. What the spammer basically does is abuse one or two simple and fast cast spell to trigger zealots fire while regaining energy at the same time. So they are mostly using monk as their secondary class and relying on Elemental for the best use of the powerful energy management spells that class has.

Examples for Spamspells are:
Reversal of Fortune - Powerful Spell to prevent damage and quite spammable
Divine Boon - Basically an enchantment, however with a real fast cast rate and recharge rate
Infuse Health - Another powerful healing spell that sacrifices health to heal another target. It has a 0 Recharge time and a 0 cast time. Only works with other ways to gain back health real fast which i will describe later on.

Smiters Energy Control:

How do smiters control their energy? The Onetime Caster often uses the 0815 Energy Drain or Offering of Blood Spells. The Spammer however has to rely (and he really has to) on using Ether Renewal. Ether Renewal is an Elementalist Elite spell which gives back health and energy based upon the amount of enchantments on the caster. Which just happen to be an awful lot when using Smiting. This is also the way to heal yourself enough to employ Infuse Health (when used with Aura of Restoration as well and not so high hitpoints)

Some details on Ether Renewal (ER):
For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1-4 energy and 5-17 health for each enchantment on you. Has a recharge time of 30 seconds, a casting time of 1 and an energy cost of 10.

What this spell basically does is fuel up the Spammers Energy in a real short amount of time. Without it they are not doing much most of the time. Just as much as their energy is depleted and without ER it will get depleted real fast. However a single ER used to its full extinct will fuel up the energy to the full. Even while casting away the spamspells (especially then).

Another common method is to rely on Balthazars Spirit and Essence Bond which both give you 1 energy each when getting hit. However this is rare and basically too vulnerable to just switching targets. Watch for the effects going of. Balthazars Spirit and Essence Bond react in a bright flash you should learn to notice in a short matter of time.

So after we had a small look into how your average smiter works let us get down to the core of this post. How do we fight smiters and much more important, how do we beat them easily.

By looking at their ways of fighting we can see that we only have a handful of possibilites to do this. To name them:

Enchantment Removal
Stopping their "fuel" engine
Stopping their spam spells
Outhealing and Common Things

1. Enchantment Removal
Smiting has one major vulnerability and that is that it is based heavily on enchantments. All you got to do is remove their enchantments alltogether and they are useless dummys waiting to get owned. Now that is something that is just not too easy to do and will take some coordination with the team.

There are several ways to do this and some spells are more suited to do the job than others. What i found most effective in enchantment Removal when it comes to smiters are the following spells (though there are others).

Well of the Profane (Well that removes all of foes enchantments)
Chillbains (an AoE Enchantment Removal, downside: Just removes the top enchantment works wonders on teams who distribute their BA on several teammates)
Rend Enchantments (Swallow up to 4 spells. Monk Spells do damage though. Still the way to stop a single smiter for a while)
Inspired Enchantment (Steal one enchantment, gain energy and the ability to use it yourself for 20 seconds)
Shatter Enchantment (Crush an enchantment and deal damage while doing it)

A problem about enchantment removal are cover up enchantments. Only foolish teams leave their most powerful enchantments open and vulnerable at the top for everyone to remove. So you probably have to chew through a few enchantments to get down and dirty about stopping the smiting. I'd say well of the profane is the most powerful way to do so, but requires a dead person whose corpse is yes unaffected by necromancer spells.
A strategy might be to bring a suicide Character who will run to a strategic useful position and kill himself (of course while death nova is up...). Have your mesmers spam interrupts on the hostile necros so they can't putrid the corpse. Once the well is off the battle is down to collecting the poor victims. If you are focussing fire you're bound to get atleast another person dead -> Another well. Chain reaction going off and you've just owned a smiter team.

You could also bring a "Monk-Bait". What i call a "Monk-bait" is a Mo/Ne that tries to draw attention to him/herself. He is mainly skilled on staying alive not on healing others. What this "Monk-Bait" basically is? Its a trojan horse. You place a monk a bit further from the team. Make him drop a bit low on health (might use a vampiric mod to get that health degen and to look weak and ready to get killed) and you can rest assured... he WILL get attacked first if the other team is semi decent. If they just ignore him. Well they are either pro, having other plans or are just noob to start with. However after they start swarming him get the chillbains party started... oops.

There are other strategies out there though and i'm not going into detail. Be creative yourself

2. Stop their fuel engine
As we learned above, they have limited ways to keep the energy up. So this is one of the most vulnerable points in a smiter team. Cut their ressources dry and you've almost won. There are several ways to do that. Interrupting, removing it as soon as it is cast or preventing it being cast at all.
Interrupting might be a little tricky as ether renewal has the small casting time of 1 second. You might try to bring Natures Renewal to prolong casting times (yes, it still has a use). When removing you're quite safe when you've got a lil bit of reflexes. Just remove it with an instant cast enchantment removal. Mostly out of the mesmer line. A more subtle and decent way might be to bring Signet of Humility and stop Ether Renewal from being cast all together (Remember ER being an elite spell and signet of humility just locking those down for up to 18 seconds ad 12 dominatoin). A single mesmer is enough to stop two Spam Elementals in the tracks with this spell and a decent signet management.

3. Stopping their spam spells
This is mesmer and ranger turf here now. And it is the most easy counter to smiting to bring as well. A mesmer simply needs to bring diversion and can stop a few Spammers alltogether. Most spammers only rely on one or two triggerspells for ZF to keep it nice and easy (Bashing two buttons for some serious ownage). Stop those and you've stoped the fearsome smiter. You might also consider bringing arcane thievery and echoing it so you can cast it three times. You're bound to get lucky and steal his/her spamspell. On the other hand you could just copy your diversion anyways (but not more than once... it has a fast recharging rate).

The second great counter is your average ranger. To start with, might i advice you to still bring Natures Renewal? "But why!!! It is nerfed and noob now bla bla". Well. I agree on the nerfed part, but it is not useless. While its not removing enchantments and no longer spammable it still prolongs casting times. By putting up a single Natures Renewal you've stopped the Spammers Damage output by 50 percent. Ok after you've done that (or if you haven't done that.. whatever) you can go on to interupting business. Bring Concussion Shot. Seriously. Bring Concussion Shot. Maybe add Incendiary Arrows, Choking Gas whatever there is to continously interrupt a target as well. With the spammer just pumping out one spell after the other you WILL hit him while he is casting. Boom. Dazed. It might get removed if they have a semi decent monk but most of the time it won't get removed and you've just a little helpless ele. Bring other interrupts as well. As soon as you notice his spamming settle down a bit prepare to spam all your interrupts on him, you might get lucky and stop his engine (ER).

4. Outhealing and common things
I'm not going into detail here that much. Just to mention a few things to know about Smiting damage.

First of, it triggers Healing Seed and similiar Spells. A well placed Healing Seed is powerful enough to cut down the smiting damage and turn it into a huge free healing festival. And if smiting does not trigger it, the warrior bashing away at you will trigger it.
Shielding Hands does affect Smiting Damage. A high protection attribute will cut down smiting to a lousy little annoyance, nothing more. Basically every spell that adds damage reduction without affecting Armor Level should do the trick.
Speaking about Armor Level Affection - ZF counts as fire damage and thus should be vulnerable to wards such as ward against harm or ward against elements.

Conclusion:
Be creative. Smiting might be the new flavor of the month but it is not invincible and unbeatable.

dansamy · Sep 01, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Very good post. You have outlined all my weaknesses right in one easy to use post. Whiners, sit up and take notice. If you can't shut me down after reading this, go back to PvE. As an Emo smiter, I am very vulnerable to all sorts of counters. You just have to be sure your team brings those counters and knows how to use them. My team is now using only one Emo smiter, so I am obviously not the main source of damage anymore, but I sure keep the other team's mesmer busy trying to shut me down.

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

This OP is chock full of misinformation and maybe downright ignorance about how difficult countering smiting *actually is*.

Speaking of ignorance, which he lists as one of the "counters":

Quote:

A more subtle and decent way might be to bring Ignorance and stop Ether Renewal from being cast all together (Remember ER being an elite spell and ignorance just locking those down for up to 18 seconds ad 12 dominatoin)

Here's what the skill Ignorance actually does: For 8-18 seconds, target foe cannot use "Signet" rings. It costs 15 mana, 2 s. cast time and 10 s. recharge. Great counter to Ether Renewal, man! I wish *I* had thought of that!

Quote:

Have your mesmers spam interrupts on the hostile necros so they can't putrid the corpse

So he wants the mesmers to shut down the E/Mos and the Necros at the same time. While trying not to die to focused fire by the other team's warriors, who have been buffed with Balth's and JI, and used as triggers for Zealots Fire all at once. Have fun with that.

Quote:

It might get removed if they have a semi decent monk but most of the time it won't get removed and you've just a little helpless ele

Yes, I'm sure nobody asks their team's prot monk to bring mend ailment. Because that would just be stupid.

Here's a tip for you, Kampfeks, before you start making any more "guides". Go into tombs and actually try out your counters before posting this garbage. Do actual research into skills while you're at it. You're doing everyone a disservice with your misinformation.

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

My team is now using only one Emo smiter, so I am obviously not the main source of damage anymore, but I sure keep the other team's mesmer busy trying to shut me down.

This is why you're so easy to counter. I'll agree wholeheartedly that it's easy to shut ONE of them down. 2 E/Mos becomes a problem. 3 E/Mos and you may as well roll over and die.

Maxiemonster · Sep 01, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

I agree with ElderAtronach.

Though, nice that you made a guide though, but try to do a little bit more research before making one

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Elder.
Why so hostile? What is your fricking problem?
Just because i mixed up the name of one spell? Sure thing to bash a whole post just for that. Yeah it is not the spell ignorance, it is signet of humility Still the same outcome. A locked down Elitespell.

About locking down.
Yes a decent mesmer can lock down at least two targets at the same time. You disagree? Go in tombs and try yourself. It actually is VERY possible to do.
And about that scenario i just wanted the mesmer to interrupt the necro for a few seconds until the well is of. Where did i say i want the mesmer to be a necromancer secondary to put up well... well.. as well? Don't try putting words in my mouth i never wrote.

About removing Dazed.
Did it ever come to your mind that there might be alot more of conditions flying around then dazed? You can EASILY cover it up with another condition. Mend Ailment for the win then? Martyr for the win? Yeah sure, the nasty condition just got transfered to the condition attender.

And don't say elitist bullshit like "Go and try in tombs!". Guess what i did and why i came up with it? Geez, just because i mixed up ONE... ONE (!) fricking spell all that bashing.

gou · Sep 01, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

well said, just a couple of things to add, rend can remove upto 8 enchants in one go (8 x 40 damage ouch! I know, but not with protective spirit on).
And lingering curse ftw!

quoting permission granted

thegame2009 · Sep 01, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Elder needn't have said all that. If they have 2-3 smiters, why can't you have 2 mesmers? Mesmers are not only for shutdown, you can have them go half shutdown half damage, so the warriors are not raping your only mesmer.

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gou

well said, just a couple of things to add, rend can remove upto 8 enchants in one go (8 x 40 damage ouch! I know, but not with protective spirit on).
And lingering curse ftw!

Yes, you're right on that. Might i add a quote of your post at the appropiate position in the starting post? Thanks for pointing that out.

@Elder
Did you see how critics can be made without acting all elite and trying to crush and bash a person just for the fun of it? I never said my post was top notch nor perfect. I meant it to be edited and updated with new informations flying in from the community.
So it might not be a perfect guide now, and i never meant it to be that way. But it might become with the work of the community so in the future, one might just point the Smitewhiners to this thread to make them go silent. Someone just had to start it.

@GWG Community:
If you brought critic. Bring it a friendly and appropiate way. If you want to see how it is done wrong look at elders post. If you want to see how it is done right look at gou's post.

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Our group has used concussion shot. We have used skull crack. We have used choking gas. We have used distracting shot, distracting blow, savage shot, and savage blow. We have used diversion and signet of humility. We have used rend, chilblains, and lingering curse. We have used multiple drain enchantments. We have used nature's renewal for the increased enchant cast time. All of the above on the same team build, at the same time.

Countering 1 E/Mo was cake with that build. Countering 2 was pretty difficult, especially if we faced guild teams using smiters. Countering 3 at the same time is next to impossible if you wanted to take any of them down by focusing fire.

Guess what, E/Mos with monk backup will outlast you energy-wise and healing-wise. Once their team gets your disrupters down (mesmers and necros), they will wipe the floor with you.

Going to the tombs and winning the first couple rounds is one thing. Holding the halls is another.

Evisicator · Sep 01, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Are you ppl forgeting Well of the profane? It's a great Enchant stripper that anyone can run thru if they have a BA warrior on them.

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

See and that is where i fail to get your point ElderAtronach. I'm speaking about one or two teammembers of your team. If you're solely focused to get smiters down. Yes, your team will lose as soon as it is no longer facing pure smiting but normal fighting backed up by smiting.

And my post was not meant to be the most ultimate answer one could give. In no way. It is just a basic guide (basic - not covering the details and not covering in depth problems). It was meant to get people started on countering the Smitebuild not providing the one answer to rule them all.
Why? Because if i would have posted exact builds to stop it, the smiters would just adapt. There is a constant flow of change in PVP and as we all know. Each Skill and each Tactic can be countered in some way. Even the Spiritspam was counterable (though it was a lot harder to counter it than it is to counter smiting). We could just get to a point where i would be listing counters and you would bring counters to the counters. Yeah, that is Guildwars. And that is what i love about Guildwars. Peace.

@Evisicator
I mentioned it in the starting post ^^

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Kampfeks: yes, I could have worded my post better. I apologize for that. But from the way I read it, claiming smiting is easily countered just pissed me off. You worded it as a definite guide, and were trying to get people to think that smiting is easy to stop, which is BS. The amount of misinformation and false conclusions was what set me off, especially this paragraph:

Quote:

Be creative. Smiting might be the new flavor of the month but it is one hell of a vulnerable flavor. Probably the most vulnerable one i might add. I've just pointed out a FEW of many ways to stop smiting alltogether. You should be able to come up with your own version. Hell even copying what i posted here will allow you to stop them most of the time.

Smiting is NOT vulnerable. This is why it's so popular! It's far sturdier and holds up hell of a lot better under pressure than air spikers of a couple FotMs ago. Posting counters such as diversion "spam" and concussion shot does not mean you'll be able to stop them with those. Getting creative? The best counters to smiters so far has been to tweak your own smite build. Real creative, that.

Again, I apologize for crapping on your first post. I am just tired of seeing ONLY smite builds in the tombs now. They are far more prevalent than say, spirit spammers were pre-patch.

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Yeah, i'm probably gonna rewrite that passage. When saying that, i was referring to most other FOTM we had so far that made quite some noise. Remember the loud whine when the aeromancers were roaming the Tombs? Sure Protective Spirit would cut the damage but it was just not as easy. We had healing ball. Boy, how annoying the healing ball was and not so easy to counter as well. And we had the spiritspam gone wrong.

In my opinion those FOTM where more harder to counter than your average smiter group. But that is just my opinion. Gonna rewrite it now to make it more clear. Or maybe take out that passage all together.

/edit:
I rewrote that passage you quoted to read as the following:

Quote:

Conclusion:
Be creative. Smiting might be the new flavor of the month but it is not invincible and unbeatable.

Does that sound better?

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evisicator

Are you ppl forgeting Well of the profane? It's a great Enchant stripper that anyone can run thru if they have a BA warrior on them.

It's very conditional. It gets beaten too easily to the corpse by putrid explosion, and people run out from the well's radius, then they re-apply enchants.

Kabale · Sep 01, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks
You disagree? Go in tombs and try yourself.

aaand same post...

Quote:

And don't say elitist bullshit like "Go and try in tombs!".

Made me laugh ^^

Anyway, it's a good listing of what has been discussed in various different threads.

Zeru · Sep 01, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Getting creative? The best counters to smiters so far has been to tweak your own smite build. Real creative, that.

No it's not.

If you think any competent team will be smiting, then run a hard counter. 2 mesmers and heavy wards with multiple seeds/shielding hands. 2, even 3 elmos, will be completely shutdown. If they run a mes, your second one can stay on him while the first one shuts down the smiters. Wards and other prot spells will severely gimp the damage of the warriors. Diversion spam one, proceed to use Mantra inscriptions/signet of humility+draining on the other.

All it takes is surviving until the eles are completely locked down and then you can slowly proceed to spike them as their damage will be so weak.

Not saying it's easy but if your team/build is solid you will win with a good counter setup. The best counter is definitely not a better executed smite build. Since so many teams are running smite, you really won't find many good ones that aren't, making a heavy counter build not a bad choice.

Frankly I think air spike has a good chance against smiting as well unless they really load on res signets and run a disruption character. You're guaranteed at least 2-3 kills on their elmos before someone drops. Run a few wards and good energy management and you probably can outlast them. Most smite teams don't bother with Edenial and they definitely don't use fertile.

Kampfkeks · Sep 01, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

aaand same post...

Made me laugh ^^

Good point there. I just got owned real bad

Sorry for that.

ElderAtronach · Sep 01, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I have seen good spike teams make it to the halls, but they were running heavy earth eles, not air. I remember seeing a lot of earthquake and obsidian flame, as well as heavy wards. In the end, they were still beaten by the smite team that was holding.

The trouble with wards is, you can't easily *kill* the E/Mos outside the wards, while their warriors can still be pounding you even with wards up. 2 mesmers might be able to shut them down, but how would you actually kill them quickly? We've run into Fear Me warriors quite a few times, so smite teams can still use e-denial that way, and its devastating inside a ward or altar.

dansamy · Sep 01, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

This is why you're so easy to counter. I'll agree wholeheartedly that it's easy to shut ONE of them down. 2 E/Mos becomes a problem. 3 E/Mos and you may as well roll over and die.

I'm there to keep your mesmer busy. Most teams only bring one, and that one is assigned the task of "Shut-down the emo. If there's no emo, shut down the monk." If your mesmer is busy bothering me, he's not bothering my monks.