Curse

Warskull · Sep 02, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

You guys are in a healing ball, truthfully balthazar's is a non issue. Healing seed will outheal it (and I am pretty sure healing spring can too.)

Even with quickening zephyr cry of frustration has a decent cooldown. I don't think it will buy you a full 30s in an altar match. If you want something to save the altar work distracting show into your ranger. It stops the capture and disables the skill for a full 20s. You also misunderstand something very important about cry. It is a skill that cannot be planned for. You either have the energy in reserve or you can't cast it when the moment comes. Having 20 energy in reserve is a lot and I think the necros will run into situations where they are just shy of enough energy to cast cry. Sure they get that energy in 1-2 seconds, but the chance to use cry passed up. If they actually intend to use cry for something other than ghostly heroes they will have to keep 20 mana in reserve and limit their casting. I think you can fill this slot with something better.

Amused Observer · Sep 02, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

The problem I see with using Necrotic spikers (shadow strike and gaze) in your HoH build is that they're also the ones carrying enchant removals. And if your target has a spellbreaker in effect, your spikers will be playing patty-cakes while waiting for it to wear off. An Infuse Health cast by a fully healthy monk or a Mark of Protection will also prevent your target from going down easily. In that case, 1/2 your group has used up almost half their energy without a kill to show for it.

Keure · Sep 02, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

About Holy Damage, from the GuildWars FAQ:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1641

Does Holy damage ignore armor?
No. Holy damage is a damage type. It does not have any inherent armor-ignoring property. However, most undead enemies, and some necromancer armors (necrotic) will take double damage from holy damage. In addition, most smiting prayers spells that do holy damage will ignore armor. This is not listed in the description.

Fr3sH · Sep 02, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Your monks are using pretty crappy heals imo.

Sig of devo works good under qz, but munks need to have more 5 nrg heals.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amused Observer

The problem I see with using Necrotic spikers (shadow strike and gaze) in your HoH build is that they're also the ones carrying enchant removals. And if your target has a spellbreaker in effect, your spikers will be playing patty-cakes while waiting for it to wear off. An Infuse Health cast by a fully healthy monk or a Mark of Protection will also prevent your target from going down easily. In that case, 1/2 your group has used up almost half their energy without a kill to show for it.

But you're worrying about skills like spellbreaker, Infuse Health and Mark of Protection...why? Those seem to be extremely few and far between, and if life stealing damage ignores protective bond, I'm not so sure mark of protection would even guard against it. For spell-breaker, we just pick another target....About the necros spiking and removing enchants, I'm not really understanding....do you play spike groups much? I play with a really good group of air spikers (won and held hall a few days ago) and we use our own enchant removal as well, more costly spells (cast time + energy usage). It takes a bit of coordination, but over TS or vent it shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

Even with quickening zephyr cry of frustration has a decent cooldown. I don't think it will buy you a full 30s in an altar match.

Sure it will. Cry has a 10 second recharge under QZ, and all 4 necros are bringing it. And the hero uses claim resources (or whatever it's called), every ~10 seconds right? Plenty of time

Quote:

You also misunderstand something very important about cry. It is a skill that cannot be planned for.

You mean it *has to* be planned for? The high energy makes it a terrible 'heat of the moment' skill, but something you should plan ahead to use. Which is exactly what the necros will do. Skip one spike between Offerings, and you'll have plenty of energy. And once you stop spiking completely (focusing on interrupting), then you should have no energy problem whatsoever with offering and taking turns casting cry.

ElderAtronach · Sep 02, 2005, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

I can't seem to understand why anyone would use air spiking after seeing that 4 necros can kill a target in 3 seconds for 20 energy (26 under QZ)

Air spiking has been dead for some time now. The new spike is earth. Obsidian flames and crystal waves eat you alive if you're not careful.

Back to your build, I didn't see that you had 4 necros, I thought you only had 3. Oops :P. Like I said in another thread, if you can coordinate your shadow strikes at the very beginning of the spike, you'll be doing 400+ damage (440 max with awaken the blood), but it won't be enough to kill someone with 455 or 480 health (or more since they'll most likely have morale boosts). There's a 1.75 second window between shadow strike and vamp gaze in which their monks can heal them back to 2/3 or more with a heal other or word.

About the vamp gaze issue, I find that its better to put one life siphon on them, since you've got high blood anyway. The degen will kill them if they're not healed fast enough after the vamp gaze final spike. The only other thing I can say is to go in there and test the build out. If you can spike with 4 shadow strikes and 4 vamp gazes to kill someone within the "panic heal time frame", you will kill that person, but that's true of an earth spike as well. Getting hit by 118 x 5 obsidian flames at once will drop almost anyone unless their monk was prescient and put prot spirit on right before :P.

I also strongly suggest *against* dropping res sigs, they're too important for insurance policies not to have.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

What is that 1.75 second window coming from? You can cast gaze immediately following the strikes, and it would only take 1 second....right?

I picked parasitic simply because it was the cheapest option with 1 second cast time to be used in place of vamp gaze. Life syphon early would give the target away, late and you may have missed the window. Are you completely positive gaze can not kill someone?

I considered using awaken the blood, but I figure there's too much offering going on to justify double HP sacrifice.

And yes, I really don't want to take the res sigs out at least before trying the build in it's current state. But like I said, my guild either doesn't want to run something this "different", or we may just not have the skills. I've been unlocking the necessary skills anyway, so by now I can play almost any of the jobs in this build

ElderAtronach · Sep 02, 2005, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

What is that 1.75 second window coming from? You can cast gaze immediately following the strikes, and it would only take 1 second....right?

.75 aftercast after shadow strike, and 1 second cast time for vamp gaze.

Quote:

I picked parasitic simply because it was the cheapest option with 1 second cast time to be used in place of vamp gaze. Life syphon early would give the target away, late and you may have missed the window. Are you completely positive gaze can not kill someone?

Try it yourself, but if others in your party are attacking the same target with like, bows or wands, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I just wanted to make people aware that vamp gaze can't be the final finisher to kill someone, it takes another hit to get their last 1 HP.

Quote:

I considered using awaken the blood, but I figure there's too much offering going on to justify double HP sacrifice.

Without awaken, you'd only be doing 400 with the coordinated shadow strike, and that gives the monks even more opportunity to heal.

Quote:

And yes, I really don't want to take the res sigs out at least before trying the build in it's current state. But like I said, my guild either doesn't want to run something this "different", or we may just not have the skills. I've been unlocking the necessary skills anyway, so by now I can play almost any of the jobs in this build

That's the trouble with most builds that are like this, it's much easier to throw together a smite PuG because its so easy to play and so powerful it steamrolls over other most other builds.

smurfhunter · Sep 02, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

That's the trouble with most builds that are like this, it's much easier to throw together a smite PuG because its so easy to play and so powerful it steamrolls over other most other builds.

thats the problem with all these fancy builds, they get owned by pug smite groups and then everyone leaves in disgust, so you barely even have time to fully develope the team. and seriously tho, in a smite team you have (usually) 2 tanks and 2 emos... both of those characters are ridiculously easy to play, bordering on brainless. (ok maybe the caller actually has to be awake but thats about it) then the other half of the team (3 monks and the mesmer or necro) actually need to have some skill... while your build would require that everyone in the team has some level of skill in pvp. this is why pug groups do so well... its not *that* easy to be a bad tank if everyone in teh group tells you what build to use... all you need is 3 good monks and a mesmer. the rest can be 10 year old noobs and you can still win the hall

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Well, the shadow strike spike is not supposed to kill the target, the vampiric gaze follow up will (3 gazes, one person will use any health degen skill to make sure they die). You say the monks have time to heal, but not really....right when they see the damage, the necros are already casting their follow-up spell. It's just like air spiking with orb and strike, 2 seconds cast time followed instantly with 1 second cast time. Bash air spiking if you want, but you can't deny that it drops targets. Air spikers have many weaknesses though, and this build seems much more potent.

I just wish I could get the people together to test this damn thing. If anyone is interested in running it, I'd love to participate.

smurfhunter · Sep 02, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59

spike teams are gimped completely by simple buffs. IMO a spike team will never dominate tombs, simply because they lack the ability to do it more than once, and the fact that everyone brings the res sig. so if the entire point of this build was to drop one target in like 2 seconds, im sorry i just dont see it working.

although i am deviating and talking somewhat more generally about spiking in general...

oh and the reason they nerfed chain lightning was because it was letting people 'spike' multiple targets at once, something really overpowered (imagine the possibility of spiking 4/8 players on a team at once)... they didnt actually nerf it because it was good for spiking one target. i think someone explained this to me on a different board.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Chain lightning is even better for spike groups now, they lowered the recharge. And you can still take out multiple targets when people are bunched up and you have a competent caller.

Not sure what your point was about spiking getting owned by rez sigs, frozen will be up all the time. Sorry to be blunt, but most of what you say isn't very relevant. What are the simple buffs that gimp this build completely?

smurfhunter · Sep 02, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

Chain lightning is even better for spike groups now, they lowered the recharge. And you can still take out multiple targets when people are bunched up if you have a competant caller.

Not sure what your point was about spiking getting owned by rez sigs, frozen will be up all the time. Sorry to be blunt, but most of what you say isn't very relevant. What are the simple buffs that gimp this build completely?

ok now i am diverting from the main point of the thread, which is your build, but you asked me a question and im answering:

myth #1: frozen is up all the time. ummm, no. res sig take 2 secs to go up, frozen takes 5. guess who wins. if you put it up beforehand you are risking alot, and just about no one does that.

what you said is true... you can take out multiple targets with a good caller only the update made this that much harder. the range is shortened considerably. taking out multiple targets is not as easy as it once was. and i repeat, taking out one is like doing nothing.

simple buff which completely nullifies spikes: prot spirit. spammable. easy. prot spirit + shielding hands = no spike. any competent prot can put it up before its too late. not to mention, when im against a spike team i have some mesmer just run ahead and start casting, that way i know who they target first and s/he is protted right from the start. this kind of destroys alot of spikes, like do you go for the easy target anyway or do you try to endure the mesmer? frozen soil is ridiculously easy to knock out. especially with balths aura you just sit next to it. like 1 hammer attack and its out. in fact i usually put it up in the smite team thats against a spike team to keep THEM from resing.

also, chain lightning is 3 seconds to cast now (correct me if im wrong on that one). orb is something like 1-2 seconds. this means for a full spike you will have eles standing IN PLACE, IN A GROUP. this is like the perfect target for BA. you dont even have to go for the monks, they cant possibly heal all that damage.

finally you rely on DROPPING A TARGET for your damage. you need to be quick or it wont work. the increased casting time completely destroys that. it slows you down. if you allow like 10 seconds in between spike, im sorry but that just wont do a thing. in those 10 seconds you can not only kill half the team, you can easily kill the frozen soil spirit (at least) and res whoever died.

as for actual experience, i have *never* lost to a spike team while in a semi-decent smite pug. never. ive lost about 3-4 people in the group, but ive never actually lost. and one other thing: you dont see spikers further than like broken tower. really. once you get to the courtyard, all you see is smite groups, or groups that work on more than the unworthy. so really, spiking is pretty old news.

the only team i like which works on a 'spike damage' concept is the necro bomb group. now THAT is a hilarious group because if you do it right, you can wipe out the entire enemy team in one bomb

so now im sorry for being blunt, but spike teams = noob. right now at least.

stumpy · Sep 02, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

maelstrom ftw ....

not just s troll post ... but drop a maelstrom or shower and your balls break. Secondly, your damage output doesn't look high enough to take down warriors with reversal spammed on them. Once the opposing monks notice your focus they will be able to seed it in time. 4 necros just isnt enough. As well you are fighting with 2 monks ... 50/50 monks which means that as soon as 1 goes down ... your likely done son. It's not that 2 e-drain monks can't hold there own its that 1 can only blow smoke up against good teams.

If I were to offer 1 piece of advice to improve your build, get res sig off of your monks ... there are loads of other more useful and critical skills you need on your monks. Use that 8th slot or else your team (14 slots for prot/healing) will find it tough against regular teams (24 slots healing/prot). It is a great concept and I hope it works out for you, but beware ...

In game tests may vary from paper, gl

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

smurfhunter, please just stop posting. Did you even read the original build? I asked you "What are the simple buffs that gimp this build completely?" because you were downplaying the effectiveness of all spiking, and you launch into how you can counter air spikers? This is necro blood magic spiking. This ignores protective spirit, and who knows how many other prot spells.

The ranger drops frozen at the beginning, go back and read the build. If they manage to kill off the frozen and therefore beat this build, then it is fatally flawed anyway and is not worth debating. The entire idea of the build is having the three spirits up at all times.

For your other points, it's obvious you don't play in a good spike team. Granted it takes skill to spike now, and average PUG spike groups whose players do not work well with one another won't go far. It's not as mindless as PUG smiting. The difference between us is that I actually play with good air spikers, people who have made most if not all of their 500-800 fame from air spiking since before it was FotM (not me, I joined much later). But at least I have experience with it, and have a good idea for what works, what doesn't, and all of the difficulties that go hand-in-hand with air spiking. I'm not interested in seeing another ill-informed "spike groups suck" post, I've read them just like you have and don't need them regurgitated here. Go back to your boring smiting if you're not interested in using critical thinking to critique this build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

maelstrom ftw ....

not just s troll post ... but drop a maelstrom or shower and your balls break.

Yes, I thought about maelstrom, and tried to account for it by putting mantra of concentration on the ele. The monks can spread out from their initial position on the spirits, I think wards have a larger radius than maelstrom (alternatively the monks can just wait out the maelstrom if healing is not needed right away). The ranger isn't using spells so maelstrom is a joke to him. The necros will make sure to stay out of the maelstrom as well.

Meteor shower is a different story, and one of my original concerns.The damage will be insignificant of course, but knockdown is a bitch. If mantra of concentration does not block knockdowns, that could be a problem if you don't get the wards back up. The ranger might miss dropping a healing seed as well, or if the enemy really has their wits about them, they might interrupt his spirit. Honestly, I'm not sure right now how to counter a group using meteor shower extensively. The ranger at least could go warrior secondary for balanced stance, as his leech signet is not very important at all. At least only a handful of groups seem to be running meteor shower at all...hopefully it's more of a non-issue as long as smiters are the dominant play type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

Secondly, your damage output doesn't look high enough to take down warriors with reversal spammed on them. Once the opposing monks notice your focus they will be able to seed it in time. 4 necros just isnt enough. As well you are fighting with 2 monks ... 50/50 monks which means that as soon as 1 goes down ... your likely done son. It's not that 2 e-drain monks can't hold there own its that 1 can only blow smoke up against good teams.

Honestly, I think you're too focused on two figures, DPS and HPS. The fact is, the monk healing is not as necessary in this build as some others. The ranger is keeping up healing springs almost all the time, which heal 25+ HP per second. Also, the main thing, this build has insane armor amounts. Instead of thinking of it as 2 monks versus a team with 3 monks, you've got to realize that there is also a dedicated warder and a dedicated spirit/healing ranger. Overall, 4 defensive characters. This build also makes use of staying close together to use certain healing skills to great effect. It also operates extremely well under QZ, while many other builds are not designed to run well under it.

For damage output, the necros should be able to take out a single enemy each strike. That's definitely a valid point about reversal on warriors, but again, I'm not so sure that protects against life stealing damage, if protective spirit doesn't. And it's not "focused fire" that the monks will notice and seed...this is almost instantaneous death, from the other team's standpoint. In the time it takes the enemy monks to see that one person is almost dead from 4 shadow strikes, then click their name, then activate their healing spell, the gazes + hex have already been casted and the victim is dead. This will take good coordination, but who ever said crappy players should be able to win with advanced strategies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

If I were to offer 1 piece of advice to improve your build, get res sig off of your monks ... there are loads of other more useful and critical skills you need on your monks. Use that 8th slot or else your team (14 slots for prot/healing) will find it tough against regular teams (24 slots healing/prot). It is a great concept and I hope it works out for you, but beware ...

In game tests may vary from paper, gl

Yes, like I mentioned, I'm really bad with monk builds. Thanks for that advice, it seems sound. I'd say the necros should probably be the ones using their rez sigs if someone manages to actually die in this build.

Hey, I'm the first to admit that this build has counters. Largely, other armor-ignoring damage will hurt a lot. But until the metagame shifts significantly, it's too small of an issue to get all worked up about to the point of invalidating this build. IMO

ElderAtronach · Sep 02, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

res sig take 2 secs to go up

It's 3 seconds, but still beats frozen soil if they both start using the respective skills at the same time. Just nitpicking.

Also, I've seen earth spiking groups who've made it to the halls. Please get away from this fascination with air spiking, its over and done with. If you're going to compare ss/vamp gaze spiking to anything, compare it to something that's viable in the current metagame, i.e. obsidian flame spiking.

smurfhunter · Sep 02, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

aaah ok ok stop yelling lol. i dont realy have time to read the entire thing atm, but i skimmed it and heres a few things to tell ya: vamp gaze is affected by prot spirit, isnt it? i mean obs flame is... and that one is like totally supposed to ignore it. if it isnt tho then O.O my opinion changes drastically. and yes i am downplaying all spiking. good you noticed lol.

and ill go back to my original post, dropping spirits before it starts wont work. (note frozen cant really be hidden way back, you want it affecting the enemy too, its not like fertile which you try to hide)

and fyi ive done alot of spiking back in the day (yes i admit it

), and not to sound like this means i was the best, but i was good enough to beat the hall with it. it caught people with their pants down before, but now... plz. no one spikes anymore.

and yes im very interested in new builds/ideas, only that doesnt mean i support every build i see that isnt a smite build. like what do you have against smiting anyway? its pretty fun

so yea.. catch ya later on that when i actually read it

Ollj · Sep 02, 2005, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Holy damage can be seen as a damage type that every armor has only 60AL to and the necromancers and minions armor have only 20AL to. Judges Insight adds +10% Armor penetration to the actuall attackers armor penetration, so it could go to +10%+16%+10%=36% Armor Penetration on 60 AL because its holy damage. Thats 21,6 AL for anyone and 7,2 AL for minions.

Light damage, caused by smiting Staffs and wands, is not holy damage, its just neither physical nor elemental damage so all that armor bonuses do not count. (same with shadow damage and dark damage)

The build is thought trough and still lacks in a few basic strategy stuff.
Water magic is WAY too high for THAT single skill btw.

ElderAtronach · Sep 02, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Since when did Ollj start posting intelligent, constructive comments?

And wasn't he banned?

I'm gonna send Satan a few blankets and comforters tonight, wow...

Arathorn5000 · Sep 02, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

aaah ok ok stop yelling lol. i dont realy have time to read the entire thing atm, but i skimmed it and heres a few things to tell ya: vamp gaze is affected by prot spirit, isnt it? i mean obs flame is... and that one is like totally supposed to ignore it. if it isnt tho then O.O my opinion changes drastically. and yes i am downplaying all spiking. good you noticed lol.

and ill go back to my original post, dropping spirits before it starts wont work. (note frozen cant really be hidden way back, you want it affecting the enemy too, its not like fertile which you try to hide)

and fyi ive done alot of spiking back in the day (yes i admit it

), and not to sound like this means i was the best, but i was good enough to beat the hall with it. it caught people with their pants down before, but now... plz. no one spikes anymore.

and yes im very interested in new builds/ideas, only that doesnt mean i support every build i see that isnt a smite build. like what do you have against smiting anyway? its pretty fun

so yea.. catch ya later on that when i actually read it

For f*cks sake mate, read the original idea before posting. You haven't contributed a single thing to this thread except for reminding me that balth's aura and JI will be able to be cast much more quickly under QZ. We're not trying to hide frozen anywhere. I'm not completely positive that vamp gaze ignores prot spirit, but I searched on it and came up with a thread claiming that, and everyone replied agreeing that it was true. Seems that life stealing is not even considered "damage" in the normal sense, which possibly means that it goes right through a lot of protection spells.

I don't have anything against smiting, except that it's not too terribly interesting. I've been doing it for awhile, like I said my guild runs the classic smite group or variations of it a ton, all throughout the PvP weekend we GvG'ed with it, hovering between rank 100 and 250.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Also, I've seen earth spiking groups who've made it to the halls. Please get away from this fascination with air spiking, its over and done with. If you're going to compare ss/vamp gaze spiking to anything, compare it to something that's viable in the current metagame, i.e. obsidian flame spiking.

Well, this build doesn't specifically rely on 4 necros spiking. All that matters is that it has 4 people alotted to damage output that work well under QZ. I picked necro spiking because

-I like the idea, and it seems quite original
-It has a degree of self-healing, putting less pressure on the already outnumbered monks
-Necros have access to offering of blood, which allows for excellent energy management under QZ while many opponents will have worse energy management under QZ.
-Corpse denial
-Soul Reaping: Better than Energy storage IMO, on par with Expertise in regard to inherent energy management. Soul reaping is good in prolonged battles where you even benefit from spirits dying, as well as shorter battles where lots of people are dying. Win-win

But to be honest, it doesn't matter to me what the 4 damage dealers are. Hell, you could use 2 E/Mo smiters and 2 wars, they work great under QZ. But then you also have to deal with the various other builds out there solely built on countering smite groups.

You could run earth eles, that's great damage output for low energy. It doesn't really matter, as long as you're killing the enemy. The other half of your team's job is making your defense insanely high, healing you, and giving the other team some serious energy problems.