Curse

mostro · Sep 02, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Probably the best way to use Wastrel's Worry is on the Guild Lord, though it is still pretty bad heh. When your mesmer can afford to spam WW on the GL it probably means that you've won the match anyway...

arredondo · Sep 02, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Mesmer/Necro

Domination – 16
Curses – 12
Illusion - 4

Soul Barbs: –27 damage for each Hex cast
Wastrel’s Worry: -68 damage if not dispelled in 3 secs.
Feast of Corruption {E}: -101 damage on a hexed foe, includes -34 steal from him and nearby foes
Power Spike: -101 damage when it interrupts a spell
Shatter Delusions: -79 damage after dispelling a Mesmer Hex
Hex Breaker: Defends against two Hexes with ease
Distortion: Costs an extra 2E for every whiff
Rez: In arenas, rezzing is a must

As one of the two main damage dealers, I got 18 wins with this last night before one of my PuG team members dropped mid-battle, so please don’t start up with the forum theory claims saying this build is “trash”, “worthless”, “it won’t work”, etc. By my count, I have at least three skills in there that receive player-hate on various forums (Power Spike has been dissed as well). This is how I use these skills successfully…

Firstly, Soul Barbs + Wastrel’s Worry does NOT have to be the primary damage dealer when combined in a build. This is causing the most problems I think when people judge it. Consider it more of an accessory combo as opposed to being the main source of attacks and you can begin to see the versatility these two skills can offer.

So pick a target, (go solo or with a teammate), and begin to cast. WW can be cast first on a Me/ or /Me to see if he has Hex Breaker on. If he does you cast WW again to open him up for your foundation skill. But assuming there’s no Mesmer HB to worry about, the first thing you apply is Soul Barbs --> Wastrel’s Worry. Soul Barb’s triggers for the first time, -27 damage.

The option here is to wait for a target to remove a Hex on himself (or cast any spell, if it’s an Ele or Necro). A Hex remover will dispel WW as well as remove SB, so you want to stuff it early. Assuming they cast a remover, or any spell, Power Spike it for -101 damage and notice that WW will end and cause -68 damage as well. Power Spike is great in this build because it’s an interrupt, it does 20% damage at max stats (this is a damage build), and it recharges faster than any other Mesmer stopper (15 seconds), allowing more frequent use of it.

Next you cast WW-->Shatter Delusions-->WW for a 133 damage spike in about two seconds (Soul Barbs triggers twice). Follow this up with Feast of Corruption’s 101 damage cast. By the time FoC finishes its two-second cast, WW will expire simultaneously for -68 if it wasn't dispelled. There are various damage outputs, depending on how the average scenario plays out, but here are the totals when everything works as described:

SB, WW (27+68), PS (107), WW (27), SD (79), WW (27+68), FoC (101) = 504 damage, for net 37E cost.

After Soul Barbs is cast (lasts 30 seconds), you can do all of the rest in as fast as nine or ten seconds. So at its best, this build delivers 50 dps, which makes any claims of some of these skills being utter trash absolutely ridiculous.

Before the first genius jumps on here to spit out the obvious counters to the scenario (team mate Hex removal, mass healing, Diversion, etc.), I’ll just say that a smart player will deal with those just as with any build needs to do when they are gimped. ALL builds have counters to lower its efficiency, so this is no different. The counters in no way throw these skills into the “worthless” pile

As for energy, I do pretty good since I love my 69E/55E gear for stuff like this, as well as being smart overall about when and how I cast. Again, this is something I’ve used – I’m not posting mere forum theories. Most times, you don’t need the full casts after the first target…. I sometimes can use FoC on an already-Hexed enemy who’s at 20% life. I can Power Spike an El/Mo who’s casting a key smiter spell. On a hurt, Soul Barbed enemy, WW, SD, WW, WW, WW is a speedy 35%-40% damage as they run away for help. I do that one when I’m waiting for FoC to recharge usually.

I’ve played with Soul Barb and WW builds off and on for two months, and. I’ve even gone different directions, like using Phantom Pain as a stronger SB protector (instead of Power Spike), and brought in Power Block as my elite for FoC. Even without changing the stats, PP will give you up to 140 damage on its own: -2x2x10 and -100 for DW, which is more than PS’s 107. Now with Power Block you add the ability to shut down a priority caster target for 16 seconds in one of his attribute lines while he still takes damage.

Less overall damage (about 55 less), but the damage is still VERY significant and will help the team deal with a weakened, gimped, priority enemy much better. Honestly, I’d notch down Curses two or three notches to feed Illusion and Fast Cast stats (takes SB to -25 a Hex cast), but I kept the points the same here only to keep this post as simple to read as possible.

Is it the best build ever? No and I never would claim otherwise. But you can not argue with any intelligence that these skills are completely and utterly worthless, or that they offer absolutely no value whatsoever. That’s the main purpose of this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

Actually, I've started working a bit on a list of all the trash skills you should never use, and Soul Barbs and Wastrel's Worry are both prime candidates.

Don't. You'll only make yourself look worse.

Scaphism · Sep 02, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

A couple of notes:
First, if you're feeling the need to address someone personally, please do it in a PM.
I'm not going to touch the posts before these because I'm short on time and it's a fine line between censoring and modding. You've had chances to defend yourselves and I hope you're satisfied.

Second: Arredondo, I don't know if you read the entire thread before you posted. We do value creativity here but only in certain spots. When you've seen (and created) as many builds as I have very little of what you see appears original. I recognize that however, and only rarely will I step into a thread because many others wont have gone through the same process yet.

This is a build I've seen many times before and it has not paid off as a good investment of time for me in the past. The basic reasons for that are clearly laid out above. If you disagree with those points, refute those points directly.

At the same time we do realize people need to experiment- which is exactly why I asked if there was support for expanding this section of the forums to include "theoretical/experimental" and "just for fun" build ideas. It looks to me like you had a speech already prepared about how people love to quash creativity and you were waiting to find an opportunity to post it. It doesn't look like you read through the entire thread before posting or you would have seen that subject emerging- or if you did, you chose to ignore it and post what you wanted to say anyways.

Finally, on a personal note, I'm going to ask that you stop calling people elitists. I'm not blind, I see it cropping up more and more often as a label, and I find it insulting. It's a new catch phrase for people you don't like and it's starting to pick up steam. If you need to complain there are appropriate channels for that- PMs and the site feedback forum are your best options. If you still feel the need to complain openly, you'll have to be more creative because I'm sick of seeing it in this part of the forums.

Sep 02, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I think we need to make a post on the exactly where the notion of "this build is shit" comes from. We also need to define what creativity is-and the difference between something accepted as good and something accepted as bad.

I think we also really, really, really need a sticky on what the hell a counter is and how good builds are made. hint: the good players understand that playing vs the odds, not vs counter builds is what wins.

Scaphism · Sep 02, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Blackace- agreed. Maybe you can start us out.

I'd like to clarify something from my above post as someone politely pointed out I was being a hypocrite:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

First, if you're feeling the need to address someone personally, please do it in a PM.

I don't mean that you aren't allowed to address each other at all in your posts. What I meant to say was that if you think someone's behavior is unacceptable or out of line it's in the best interests of the forum and personal interaction if you take up the issue with them personally first. This is to discourage people from attacking another person publicly.

It's important to distinguish between addressing what a person says and who they are/how they said it. The former is what we want to see more of.
If you dislike someone, fine. You're entitled. As a community it's of no interest to us. Those feelings don't belong.
If you disagree with something they said, that's the start of debate and discussion.

If you don't have the guts to go to someone privately and quietly say "I don't like how you act on the boards, here's why," then the mods are going to do their best to not let you get away with publicly sniping them. I hope the distinction, and the acceptable ways to disagree with someone, are clear. If something remains unclear, now you know to ask first instead of accusing.

rii · Sep 02, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

let me just remind everyone that this sb is tantamount to hex stacking and is owned by convert which everyone always brings. This has already been raised but i felt the need to raise it again, since noone has provided an actual refutation of this.

'it works so dont say its rubbish'
it worked in the arena. im not goddam quashing your creativity, or any of that (i may start a rant about where the actual eliteism is in this thread, apart from what your confusing it with, which is bluntness). As mentioned, convert > sb/hex stacking in general.
and as blackace said, this is about odds vs build not counter vs build.
odds are there is convert, so build is less good.

entropy · Sep 02, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

[DEMAND]

I think of this in terms of a company's Research and Development devision. Sure, the daily wage is going to come out of the tried and true business, but the exponential growth comes out of R&D. Heck, that's what I've been using thisforum for.

[/DEMAND]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaphism
if there's enough demand for a "Casual" or "Theoretical" builds section we could probably add it

I totally agree i like to experiment with different builds just for fun. I just like to try different things.

Edge Martinez · Sep 03, 2005, 01:45 AM // 01:45

I'd just like to note that I don't feel discouraged or suppressed

Of course I ignored one person who posted, as usual, but most of the pro or encouraging stuff I got weren't enough to counter what Scaphism came back with. Creativity is one thing, but fooling your own self is not the way to go. I see many folks in this forum post stuff and get defensive at the drop of a hat before actually analyzing the responses. Written words here can't hurt you, but ignorance can. It's better to maintain creativity and not ignore good advice, if you know what I mean.

"Dude, let's go kick that pit bull."
"Pit bulls bite."
"... Stop suppressing me!!!"

I'm still experimenting with WW, mostly for GvG instead of tombs. I'd still like to expand this section a bit though to include theory and harasser builds.

Glasswalker · Sep 06, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

Creativity is one thing, but fooling your own self is not the way to go. I see many folks in this forum post stuff and get defensive at the drop of a hat before actually analyzing the responses. Written words here can't hurt you, but ignorance can. It's better to maintain creativity and not ignore good advice, if you know what I mean.

"Dude, let's go kick that pit bull."
"Pit bulls bite."
"... Stop suppressing me!!!"

Funny and true. I've stayed out of this pretty much because I'm always on the side of "Try it yourself, then come back and beat us with it". And this has worked pretty well for some people. I tend to think that when people say a particular skill is crap, that it really means they haven't used it in the right combo, or the right build, or with the right team, or something.

Wastrel's Worry is the exception that proves the rule as far as I'm concerned. It would be quite possible for the devs to make this a useful skill, but as it is written/coded today it is useless. Before you (whoever you are...) take anyone's advice and try it yourself, or ignore more learned peoples' sometimes overly harsh advice, try this: (And it applies to all skills/builds so BlackAce when you make that thread, this might go in it)

[Thought_Experiment]
If you ran up against this skill/build, what would you do to counter it?

If the answer is that you can counter it without changing anything on your skill bar and taking no ill effect, do not ever use this skill.
[/Thought_Experiment]

Wastrel's Worry is just such a case. Every build has a non-spell skill that they can cast quickly and destroy WWs usefulness -- at the very least they have a signet. In my own case, adrenal skills take no energy, and I'm using them anyway. If I have something on me like Clumsiness that will punish me for attacking, I will change stances.

But for the moment, let's assume they don't. Do they have a teammate? Can they CTRL+Click? Okay, once again it doesn't work. I think I'm a bit more diplomatic than many of the long time contributors here, but I can say this with absolute certainty: This skill will only ever be of use against a bad player on a bad team. Note that bad player is insufficient, since they still can use Ventrillo or CTRL+Click. It takes both.

arredondo · Sep 06, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

[Thought_Experiment]
If you ran up against this skill/build, what would you do to counter it?

If the answer is that you can counter it without changing anything on your skill bar and taking no ill effect, do not ever use this skill.
[/Thought_Experiment]

If this is your ‘strategy’ for deciding how to determine what skills/combos/builds you use, then you’re stuck waiting around for other people to feed you the latest FotM to use instead of thinking for yourself. Why do you assume that players using a skill, build, or strategy are unable to also plan for perceived defensive tactics? Obviously there’s hardly any skill that stands on its own, and in the larger team modes many team members support each other in significant ways. That takes us into a maze of many possibilities of what can happen.

Examples. Why bother cloaking a Warrior with smiting enchants as he rushes in if he’s only going to be disenchanted? Obviously teams get around this problem, doing stuff like rotating Spell Breaker protection on him from his Monks along with other tactics. Chilbains then becomes about the only magical way to even make him notice you are casting something.

Why bother bringing Wells as a Necro when the opponent can simply use Putrid first, despite the added recharge? Bring in a Mesmer skill like Guilt (stops one offensive cast for 10 seconds) and then cast it on an enemy Necro as someone is dying. Protect it with some other Hex for removal insurance if you wish, and your Necro has a 6+ second corpse cast advantage in normal circumstances.

So if you see that there’s a response that you might face when using any tactic, try your best to see if you can re-counter him in some way, and if that fits well with your overall build. If not, toss it out since I agree that not every idea is a viable one.

As for your specific problems with WW, what you said only applies to the obvious random use of WW. My post shows that it can be a pretty decent accessory skill adding to the entire build’s purpose of doing a lot of damage in a short period of time. I don’t simply cast it, sit on my hands for three seconds and cheer when it works. My post at the very least shows that WW can have some legitimate purposes in a well thought out setup (i.e. anti-Hex Breaker, supporting damage in three different ways).

Re-read it again and try to logically say that the skill is 100% trash, utterly useless, having no purpose, etc. One good thing about it is that even if an enemy runs, you can be doing steady damage (-27 a second) or spike damage (45% -50% at best) from afar. More if they have no stance to dispel WW and need to stop and cast something instead to avoid its 68 damage.

Even a great Warrior has a drop in DPS once a player is on the run. Of course, they can deal with most runners by planning ahead, and things like Hex removal etc. can be dealt with as well for a Hex build (especially with NR nerfed).

On the side, the drama above is being worked out behind the scenes. I won’t comment on that stuff in this thread anymore.

Glasswalker · Sep 06, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

If this is your ‘strategy’ for deciding how to determine what skills/combos/builds you use, then you’re stuck waiting around for other people to feed you the latest FotM to use instead of thinking for yourself. Why do you assume that players using a skill, build, or strategy are unable to also plan for perceived defensive tactics?

It isn't my only strategy, but it is kind of a gateway. And if you've seen any of my posts in the past, you would know I'm no FotM guy. When I'm talking about builds, what I usually mean is a set of skills I use together toward an end (I think that's an accepted definition). I will often plot it out on paper, and then imagine I was facing it. What if I was a warrior? What if I was another Mesmer? Etc. How effective would it be against me. I usually start out pretty 'pie in the sky', and pare it down until I have something pretty effective. This is when I will try it out, and see if other people (who play jobs that I don't) have thought of things better than I have. And it then usually gets altered again. Skills will come and go. What I'm saying is that WW is a skill that never survives the Thought_Experiment. And this is saying quite a bit because when somebody tells me something is trash, it makes me want to create a build around it and beat them over the head with it. I'm a pretty creative guy (my R/L job depends on that fact). There is no build I have posted here, or created and kept to myself that would worry for 3 seconds about WW.

And here's the key in my statement that perhaps I should have clarified:

Quote:

without changing anything on your skill bar

If countering this new build requires me to take something in particular, then one could say it is potentially effective. If I am defeating it with skills, etc. that I am taking anyway, then no, it's not. Let's take Chaos Storm as an example. If it were cast on me, I would step to the right a few paces. No change to my skill bar. Now pair that up with something like Imagined Burden. Now I'm limping off to the side for the full duration of the spell. I would have to bring a speed buff, or an anti-hex spell to counter this combo. Now it has some potential.

Soul Barbs is a seperate issue for me. It's kind of a poor man's Fragility. Not nearly as dangerous, but I can imagine builds where it can do something to most enemies.

I've read your posts, and kept an open mind to the argument. I don't think you are an idiot or whatever, I just think you are wrong. If you have been winning with a build using WW, then it's either been A) In spite of this skill, or B) Run against people that didn't know the effect of this skill or what to do about it. The skill is 100% trash, utterly useless, having no purpose, etc.

arredondo · Sep 07, 2005, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Oh, I see how forum theory games are played. I can't possibly win because of my tactics and build, so let's blindly dismiss it so we don't have to admit we may be wrong. Sounds like fun.

My turn. In actual play, I can get a lot of wins using my build, proving to me my skills have use. In actual play, you admit that you failed in your attempts at using some of these same skills in your builds. This leads me to believe the problem isn't WW or SB, but either your play style with them or your weaker build ideas using them. Understand that I read your posts and kept an open mind to the argument.

Quote:

I don't think you are an idiot or whatever, I just think you are wrong.

I am wrong for getting results? People died when I went at them, what's the big deal. There are lots of Mesmer anti Hex removal strats, so it's not like there are no solutions out there for what can stop me. This sounds like all the naysayers who downplayed my Fragility+Virulence thread. No, my SB+WW version isn't on that level, but it can and does kill. And it's uniquely nice as a natural and strong anti-Hex Breaker build, rather than forcing WW in just any build for that purpose.

And the ONLY thing I was showing here is that these skills are definitely not 100% utter, useless trash. I think its clear that they can have some use.

Spura · Sep 07, 2005, 12:22 PM // 12:22

That guilt to stop putrid trick is extremely impractical. People go down when you at least expect it and watching 16 players is a pain, and you have to have necro targeted all the time. I think that trick falls more into the category of fictional counters.

Backfire + ww is like shadow of fear, faintheartedness+empathy,spiteful spirit. Dumb.