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Sep 13, 2005, 01:51 AM // 01:51	#41
smurfhunter Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him. Guild: Sand Scorpions [SS] Profession: W/Mo	i dont think they should nerf it either, but i do think the skill (as a stand alone) is kinda out of wack. like it lets you gain basically infinite energy for its duration, meaning a smiter can just use energy skills the entire time, stopping occaisonally to re-buff. but i dont think you should nerf it because in teh context of a smite build it really is fragile as you said. i mean rend an emo smiter and hes just standing around for some time. or distract his renewal and hes standing around for even longer. otoh its makes 4-4 retarded if you use an earth ele with it, the extra defense + hp/energy makes it just totally absurd. but who plays 4-4 anyway and yea, edrain is fun but its not on level with ER, i mean you steal energy. if you steal from a warrior you arent going to get the full __ energy, steal from and emo and you probably will. and it takes time to cast, you cant be on the offensive while you regain energy, you need a target for it, etc. so all in all renewal > drain, but neither really needs to be nerfed in the current meta-game. maybe if they just had renewal let you regen energy, not hp that would help a bit. its horribly annoying when you attack an ele with it, they just heal for like 100 every like 2 seconds. >.<

Sep 13, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52	#42
Neau Quickblade Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Paladins of Heaven Profession: W/Mo	Mo/W is more of a solo build because u can use bonetti's defense to help ur regen and help to get energy to recast but of course u all know that Anet has destroyed soloing pretty much now for a monk. Elementalist smiters are more to smite off some1 so they can smite and still have enough energy to use skills for themselves and lets the monks able to heal others in pvp

Old

Sep 13, 2005, 06:35 AM // 06:35

#43

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Unless I'm missing something Flare is 5/1/0

You are since the next flare happens at 2.75s (plus flight time) and the third monk spam happens at 2.5s. If you cant see the difference, i cant help you. Also, conjure + stance nets a better dps than flare, so the argument is rather silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

and the AoE from Zealot's Fire is only going to hit (a) a bad team or (b) a healing ball (which wants you to spam a bunch of crud damage attacks like Zealot's Fire).

Everytime it wont hit more than one person, but it will get incidental damage, which will need to get addressed over time and it is unlikely that multiple instances will have crossover damage striking similar targets. The fact is, that it does have aoe and the other does not, in addition to being linked to a human being making it a smart weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

You also can't ramp Zealot's Fire up to 16 and use Ether Renewal so for this debate its stuck at 12 (and if you are talking about a Prot/Smite Mo/x Hybrid Protection Monk you probably don't want to be running a Superior Smiting rune on him in PvP unless he's the 4th Monk on your team and then I'd argue in most cases you can get better damage out of his energy than burning it on Zealot's Fire and a bunch of RoF/Draw spam).

Its not really relevant in the elementalist running ether renewal and flare, without running 2 superior runes, or at least a superior and a major. The point is that it does ramp up that high and the values at 12 are very marginal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Mind Wrack - There are plenty of good uses for this in an energy denial focused team. I've played top 50 guilds that ran pure drain oriented teams and killed you with nothing but a few plinking wands and Mind Wrack. It has to be the most frustrating death you'll ever suffer.

Compared to things that do damage and drain energy, the slot is wasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Blood Renewal - I guess you've never played a OoP/OoV spam N/x before running a few superior runes?

Can be duplicated in other ways without lowering the initial hp count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Succor - Hmm lets see, W/Mo with a Zealous Axe and a bar full of adrenaline skills. Cast Succor on a team member Monk and go to town. As long as you can swing your Axe as fast as they can cast you never run out of energy and they get an extra pip of regen. Seems like an ok skill to me?

Opposed to running something that makes some sense to have on a warrior like strength of honor? That seems like a suggestion like using warrior's endurance and trying to play monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Call of Protection - This could come in handy on a pet focused team build. Only one person needs to bring it to buff all of the pets and its a shout so it can't be removed. It costs a whopping 2-5 energy, lasts 2 minutes and has a 115s recharge so its always up.

And you are trying to save the pets? Lately it seems like they are more worthwhile dead than alive.

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Sep 13, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01	#44
twicky_kid Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: Quite Vulgar [FUN]	after seeing the perversion of the ele/mo maintaining 80 enchantments at the same time in a gvg battle b/c of ether renewal it needs to be changed. the skill is too abusive for it to stay around much longer the way it is. NR was suppressing all of the enchantment builds. now only 2 spells in the game can affectivly combat heavy enchantments and you have to be a necro to get either one. i don't think 80 maintained enchantments was on the devs mind when they made ether but coming from a MTG backgroud the players end up being smarter than the devs.

Old

Sep 13, 2005, 12:23 PM // 12:23

#45

Schorny

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

My suggestion to you is to play chess then if thats what you believe.

Why? Because I'm for equality?

Quote:

Coming from an M:tG background having "good" cards and "bad" cards are something I recognize as good.

I don't know M:tG but all games I play are fair - because I don't like playing unfair games.

Chess for example is fair, because you can win if you are better.
Some card games like poker are based on luck, but you can win more often than others if you are a better player. Some kind of luck is ok. In GW the luck-factor is the enemies build. You may soley fail to win because the enemiy's build was superior. That is fine.

Quote:

Bad players use bad cards because they don't know any better.

But that is stupid, because most common builds are well known. You need to be dumb to not be able to copy them. For example standard smite: everyone uses about 80-90% the same skills, the others vary. So most fights are between euqal parties.

Quote:

Average players use good cards but still lose to good players because of play skill. Good players use good cards and win because they are good.

So why need good and bad cards?
In GW you also have skills that are rarely used. But the fun starts if someone makes a build around them. For example like the IWAY build. Nobody used the inferior IWAY skill and now there is a build around it.

So you can't really call a skill bad

Quote:

Identifying and utilizing the good skills while avoiding the bad ones is part of what makes a good player good.

Every decent player should be able to do this.
I know many players with rank 0 and even them know how to make decent builds. I hardly see any bad builds in tombs, at least not on the higher maps. But I do see bad teams.

Quote:

I see your logic as skewed, since you are under the false impression that when ER is gone everyone will go back to playing 100% original builds and the good players will have good builds and the bad will have bad.

Your logic is flawed because I never said that. That is the perfect situation that won't happen.

Quote:

That is NOT what will happen. ER will be nered, a new FotM will emerge, and the bad players will copy that one too. Nothing will have changed but the name of the skill you want nerfed.

If a skill is too powerful, I want it changed.
If they introduce an instant kill skill, I want it to be changed.

ER is flawed because it is out of line.

You, with no word, responded to my real arguments. The argument is:
unlimited energy isn't fair

Quote:

I don't think you can argue that ER skews the metagame the same way NR did, to be perfectly honest.

I never said that.
Maybe you should start reading my post?

Quote:

I mean, its powerful in a particular build and that build is the "best" right now.

Really the best? I doubt that. But it is too powerful.

Quote:

Do you think the next FotM will be any less common in the Tombs?

I don't have a problem with common builds.
Please read my post. You aren't responding to it...

Quote:

The next FotM will be just as prevelant and the counters to it will be just as prevelant, thats the way it works.

Smite can be countered. Pure smite teams seem to be dead now. They all take some diversity in them

I haven't played in a smite team for a few days and still went to the hall many times. So, i really don't have a problem with smite. I just have a problem with ER.

Please read this and try to respond to this:
ER is out of line.
All other energy management skills can't get you nearly the same amount of energy.
With NR, you can have unlimited energy. You have much more energy than you can hold.

Think about an attack skill that does unlimited damage to a target. Wouldn't be fair, or?

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Sep 13, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40	#46
Yukito Kunisaki Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Profession: W/N	8 W/R with I Will Avenge You! for the win? From what I read, and thought about it, the most 'inefficient' class combo beats the most dreaded FotM... Now that, is great gaming...

Old

Sep 13, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

#47

Dzan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Guild: The Black Dye Cartel

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Please read this and try to respond to this:
ER is out of line.
All other energy management skills can't get you nearly the same amount of energy.
With NR, you can have unlimited energy. You have much more energy than you can hold.

But you said yourself the skill isn't being used, and when it is, its hardly dominating. Also, it fulfills different roles than E-Drain and others energy skills like that. As I said in my last post, those skills are universally good, ER is situationally better. I don't see why comparing things that have two different game functions is productive to be honest.

Is unlimited energy in one or two builds powerful? Yup, and you'll notice I've said that from the start. Is it imbalancing the game? No. Is it making the game less fun due to its overwhelming presence? No again. Your only arguement is that it is potentially "too powerful." I already addressed that in my last post why that arguement alone is insufficient.

Like I said before, I do think they will nerf it, for the same reason they nerfed Chain Lightning. A-net seems to have some poor development priorities. First, they are seemingly obsessed with making Elite Skills more powerful than comparative regular skills. Second, they are too concerned with supporting a by and large non-existent "flavor" for the game. Chain Lightnign was not nerfed because it was too dominant a skill, it was nerfed because it was better than Air Magic's elites and because it didn't fit the "flavor" of Air Magic with its good AOE. Rather than focus on actual pvp gameplay balance they are focusing on thematic adjustments. Save the thematic adjustments for when everything else is working properly, guys.

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Sep 13, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45	#48
momo2oo2 Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: May 2005 Location: Zaragoza, Spain Guild: [ODL] Profession: E/Mo	What I see unbelievable is people asking for nerfing something instead of balance the other skills. I mean, we have suffered enough nerfs to ask for another one. And apart from the NR nerf I personally cant see why Boon, ZF or Chain Lightning needed any nerf. You can argument that nobody should be able to solo the most difficult zones in the game. And I ask why not? Where was the downside? Smiters making lots of money? Smiters inyecting lots of gold/purple/ectos in the economy (yes the items that were rare those days before the summer update)?. Now with keyed chests and green items smiters will find that selling "rare" items is much more difficult so IMO thats a good enough nerf. I am saying this because the boon/ZF affected my way of playing the game. No I didn't use them for farming, the most I've made is 45k because I hate trading items, it takes too much time (which I dont have in excess BTW), and I dont see the point in having a 1M armor or a 400k sword/whatever. I used that build to get skill points, as I want to get all the skills I can with only one char. I usually hate to start from scratch in any game. It happened to me with all the Final Fantasies, Lucasarts Adventures, and any other game that involves a story and character train. And with GW it is no difference, I hate pre-searing, I've started like 4 or 5 new chars, all abanoned out of boresome. So I can't see how my way of playing GW can affect other people. With smiting teams so easily stopped I can't see either where was the problem in PvP so, why was it nerfed? Sorry for the long text before, but what I'm trying to say is. Does ER really affect other people, in PvE or PvP? Do we really need another great skill nerfed? Whats the point if an Ele can cast lots of spells (wait, isn't that what eles were supposed to do in the beggining?). And thats only for Smite Eles, because all the 25 energy elemental skills take too long to be casted to be a good way of triggering ER. If ER needs to be nerfed, then from an Ele point of view, all the knocking weapons/skills and interrupts/removers should be nerfed as they interrupt all my ele long-time casting spells! Lets nerf it all! Just joking, but think about it seriously. From a fun point of view. Last edited by momo2oo2; Sep 13, 2005 at 06:31 PM // 18:31.. Reason: Typos and new ideas

Old

Sep 13, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

#49

Schorny

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

But you said yourself the skill isn't being used, and when it is, its hardly dominating.

So what?
It is still too powerful. It doesn't matter if it dominates or not.

You have, once again, ignored my arguments.

Quote:

Also, it fulfills different roles than E-Drain and others energy skills like that.

Sure. But what about Offering Of Blood? It has a sacrifice of 17% (IIRC) and gains you about 16 energy on lvl 10. Compare that to ER.
It gives about unlimited energy.

Quote:

As I said in my last post, those skills are universally good, ER is situationally better.

I don't have a problem with 'better'. Let's say 10 seconds 5 energy skills don't cost energy would be fine for me. But instead you can gain all your energy back in this 10 seconds.

You don't need to run smite for that. You can run an air ele or earth ele and just spam one skill in this 10 seconds and than cast meteor shower till no end.

It is no problem to counter. But the effect is too high.

Quote:

I don't see why comparing things that have two different game functions is productive to be honest.

Offering Of Blood and ER have nothing to do with each other?

Quote:

Is unlimited energy in one or two builds powerful? Yup, and you'll notice I've said that from the start.

It is too powerfull. Unlimited Energy is too much energy.

Quote:

Is it imbalancing the game? No.

Yes.
Is it a threat to which teams win HoH?
No. Because you can counter it.

Quote:

Is it making the game less fun due to its overwhelming presence? No again.

Yes, that is true. But that isn't my point.
You always ignore what I'm saying

Quote:

Your only arguement is that it is potentially "too powerful." I already addressed that in my last post why that arguement alone is insufficient.

Too powerful is the one and only argument. An instant kill skill would also be too powerful.

Quote:

Like I said before, I do think they will nerf it, for the same reason they nerfed Chain Lightning. A-net seems to have some poor development priorities.

As you can see, many players are in line with what anet does

so am i.

Quote:

First, they are seemingly obsessed with making Elite Skills more powerful than comparative regular skills.

sure, elite skills shouldn't be powerful...?

Quote:

Chain Lightnign was not nerfed because it was too dominant a skill, it was nerfed because it was better than Air Magic's elites and because it didn't fit the "flavor" of Air Magic with its good AOE.

And what exactly is wrong with that?

Quote:

Rather than focus on actual pvp gameplay balance they are focusing on thematic adjustments. Save the thematic adjustments for when everything else is working properly, guys.

Now i understand you, i guess.
You are fed up with some things and now you don't like the other chances because they won't fix what you don't like, right?

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28	#50
Dzan Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: May 2005 Guild: The Black Dye Cartel	I don't really have a complaint, the metagame is really good right now in my opinion. A good balance between offensive and defensive schemes and a lot of viable builds. The only thing I don't like is the format of the HoH, its too different from the Tombs. It would be like a soccer tournament where you play rugby in the championship game. But, no really, there ARE lots of little balance problems in PVP, nothing major, but still present nonetheless. Rather than spending time determining that the AOE on Chain Lightning is not in the flavor of the line they ought to have considered problems that actually affect gameplay. I still give them props in nerfing natures renewal, it needed to be done, but I honestly wonder how much time they spent (wasted) on testing chain lightning when they could have been doing more important things.

Old

Sep 14, 2005, 01:55 AM // 01:55

#51

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Guild: Sand Scorpions [SS]

Profession: W/Mo

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

8 W/R with I Will Avenge You! for the win?

From what I read, and thought about it, the most 'inefficient' class combo beats the most dreaded FotM...

Now that, is great gaming...

to beat this build is ridiculously easy, any team with any kind of aoe can beat it: get in a ball, put healing seed on one person, and use aoes (BA and zealots are usually the way to go). byebye iway team. i think everyone is past the standard 8 w/r build and even the 7 w/r one n/mo build.

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