Curse

entropy · Sep 14, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I've tried four times to create a good IWAY team in tombs but the fact is 90%+ is just crappy teams. They say take tigers fury when of course iway does it for you. Then they are like oh we don't need to run martyr at all. We just need 8 W/R;s with no condition or hex removal... I mean conditions are sooo common. The only Time I've actually got a good group ws the 2nd time i used the build. Got to HoH but ward against foes hit us hard. We couldn't chase down the people. Its not hard if you get a great group who knows what they are doing. Well In the same group we beat the rank 29 team right before HoH which was Esoteric Warriors. As I said before it all depends on the team itself.

Gaiserik · Sep 14, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

The IWAY Build is so easy to counter, totally useless in 8v8. In 4v4, it shines a bit more, but still, being the last man standing in a 4v4, then losing doesn't mean jack, it still means you lose

Zeru · Sep 14, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

As you undoubtedly know, in this game Healing/Protection>Damage, otherwise everyone would go for builds that kill your opponents as fast as possible, without worrying about the 3 classic monks. As IWAY builds are now, it never happened to my Guild team not to be able to out-heal/out-protect (horrible english) them. Maybe an incredibly coordinated, non-scrubs-composed IWAY could even beat us, and when that will happen, I'll change my idea. Call me an open-minded dickhead. So far, I never lost to an IWAY, and managed to beat even rank -50 guilds running IWAY (my guild's ranked 38/39 if you're wondering). Would that belong in the definition of "non-scrubs" IWAY?

Secondly, I have the impression a VERY GOOD iway build wouldn't be an iway anymore, in the strict meaning of the term.

Obviously healing>damage. Elementrary principle of GW.

But good IWAYs are not just about damage. There is a large element of control in there. Obviously you haven't played a good one, which is why you're thinking this. Aegis won't stop it, ward v melee won't stop it, guardian is useless. All they do is delay your death ever slightly. Smite/heal area/balling does nothing to help you. The key is mass hexes and conditions, moreso the conditions than the hexes. No half-assed counter will stop a strong IWAY setup. You need to base a build around the counter.

Btw guild rank is close to meaningless when comparing skills. Overall skill in guildwars has degraded in the last few months. Bad stuff wins...cause it plays worse stuff. When people win, they rarely change what they're doing. Because of that and the very few good guilds who play gvg regularly, there's a lot of bad stuff floating around that is perceived as good cause it works against other bad teams.

I do realize there are lots of bad IWAY stuff flying around, as there is lots of everything done bad. There are two particular IWAY builds I'd consider very dangerous, one with 4 w/r and one with 7, although I'm sure they're other variations. Like I said before, don't dismiss IWAY because bad teams run it. It requires real skill to use, like air spike, but unlike smite. But when you run into a really good IWAY team you will lose unless your build has heavy counters to it in it. It definitely can be countered (especially in the hall, it's very weak there in most cases), but it is not as near as easy as everyone is making it out to be.

Mormegil · Sep 14, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Obviously healing>damage. Elementrary principle of GW.

But good IWAYs are not just about damage. There is a large element of control in there. Obviously you haven't played a good one, which is why you're thinking this. Aegis won't stop it, ward v melee won't stop it, guardian is useless. All they do is delay your death ever slightly. Smite/heal area/balling does nothing to help you. The key is mass hexes and conditions, moreso the conditions than the hexes. No half-assed counter will stop a strong IWAY setup. You need to base a build around the counter.

Btw guild rank is close to meaningless when comparing skills. Overall skill in guildwars has degraded in the last few months. Bad stuff wins...cause it plays worse stuff. When people win, they rarely change what they're doing. Because of that and the very few good guilds who play gvg regularly, there's a lot of bad stuff floating around that is perceived as good cause it works against other bad teams.

I do realize there are lots of bad IWAY stuff flying around, as there is lots of everything done bad. There are two particular IWAY builds I'd consider very dangerous, one with 4 w/r and one with 7, although I'm sure they're other variations. Like I said before, don't dismiss IWAY because bad teams run it. It requires real skill to use, like air spike, but unlike smite. But when you run into a really good IWAY team you will lose unless your build has heavy counters to it in it. It definitely can be countered (especially in the hall, it's very weak there in most cases), but it is not as near as easy as everyone is making it out to be.

Absolutely. As I previously posted, I never played one myself, but if there's a particularly dangerous, well-built IWAY, I never saw it. A couple of times we had to work hard but not even once we were close to lose, even though, as I said, many IWAY we encountered were supposedly good (high ranked guilds or famous players). Moreover, building a perfect IWAY would be the same as building a perfect counter to it, that's obvious: a major loss in versatility.

I won't go into the discussion of who's good and who's not, since it's totally subjective. IMO, many "supposedly Uber and ultra-famous" guilds have been reached (sometimes surpassed) in skill, creativity and experience by "second generation players" (people who didn't play the Alpha/Beta), and I don't agree with you on the fact that "overall skill has degraded". To me, there are now a lot of teams around the standards of decency, less Uber skilled teams, less horrible PuGs. Skill level is now somewhat flat, much more than it was 2 months ago.

Keure · Sep 15, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

building a perfect IWAY would be the same as building a perfect counter to it, that's obvious: a major loss in versatility.

That's just not true.

Just like how there are subpar skills there are subpar builds. A non-TF ranger with 7 +damage skills will deal less DPS *and* be less versatile than a TF ranger with debil/distracting/good prep/3 +damage skills. A warrior running axe without frenzy/sprint but with a ton of adrenal skills will deal less DPS *and* be less versatile than a frenzy/sprint axe war with disrupting chop/executioners/eviscerate.

I'm sure one can apply the same principle to a bad IWAY build and find a good IWAY build that bests it without said loss of versatility.

Mormegil · Sep 15, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

That's just not true.

Just like how there are subpar skills there are subpar builds. A non-TF ranger with 7 +damage skills will deal less DPS *and* be less versatile than a TF ranger with debil/distracting/good prep/3 +damage skills. A warrior running axe without frenzy/sprint but with a ton of adrenal skills will deal less DPS *and* be less versatile than a frenzy/sprint axe war with disrupting chop/executioners/eviscerate.

I'm sure one can apply the same principle to a bad IWAY build and find a good IWAY build that bests it without said loss of versatility.

Versatility in Tomb= being able to dominate in the early stages AND having enough defensive skills /healing power to hold the HoH. You probably won't accomplish the second objective, and I'm not sure how your ranger/warrior tweaks example fits in the discussion at hand.

Keure · Sep 15, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I'm not sure how your ranger/warrior tweaks example fits in the discussion at hand.

Your idea that a good IWAY must sacrifice versatility to be better than a crappy IWAY is flawed - my two examples illustrate the flaws in that notion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Versatility in Tomb= being able to dominate in the early stages AND having enough defensive skills /healing power to hold the HoH.

Defining versatility by itself doesn't do anything to counteract my point - you must compare versatility of a bad IWAY build to the versatility of a good IWAY build. The good one is likely to be *more* versatile - and judging from Zeru's comments here (as I haven't had the opportunity to play a good IWAY) the good one isn't hindered much by standard warrior counters.

Let me also agree with Zeru's point that without playing against a good IWAY, you have no grounds to discount its effectiveness.

Mormegil · Sep 15, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

Your idea that a good IWAY must sacrifice versatility to be better than a crappy IWAY is flawed - my two examples illustrate the flaws in that notion.

Defining versatility by itself doesn't do anything to counteract my point - you must compare versatility of a bad IWAY build to the versatility of a good IWAY build. The good one is likely to be *more* versatile - and judging from Zeru's comments here (as I haven't had the opportunity to play a good IWAY) the good one isn't hindered much by standard warrior counters.

Let me also agree with Zeru's point that without playing against a good IWAY, you have no grounds to discount its effectiveness.

Actually my primary point was that an IWAY in general isn't much versatile or effective (along with a perfect IWAY counter), but you may be right on the fact that a good IWAY isn't necessary less versatile than a crappy one, as I, like you, have never had the chance to play a good version of this build. I have little if no ground to discount its effectiveness, as you say, but the ground of the average Joe who encounters it without actually playing it. Therefore, I'm not going into details I don't know exactly, but to be frank, IWAY is the latest trend and I've been very active both in Tomb and in GvG, so something is wrong.

As I told you, not even once my team was close to a defeat, even against supposedly decent guilds (under 50 and a couple in the top 30). I know the weaknesses of our build and I'm quite convinced this is not entirely our merit: of course it's not a specifically anti-Iway build. Long story short, either we were so lucky not to even encounter one well-done IWAY (I can count roughly 50-60 IWAY beaten), or maybe people are having a hard time tweaking it/playing it at its finest.

I'm not afraid to be wrong here, but if I am, I'd like someone to show me a good IWAY build that isn't just super in dealing a massive impact damage while lacking effectiveness in the long run.