Curse

smurfhunter · Sep 25, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

let me start by saying im a noob to gvg-ing. i barely ever do it.

ok so heres my question: on a very general level, why is gvg so different from tombs? i know it is, but.. why?

like the other day i was gvging and we come across a team using wastrels worry. so im like ...ok... then i see life siphon, contemplation of purity, life transfer... im like LOL this team must be uber noob. if i saw that in tombs i would probably choke from laughing.

now the sad part is we got owned. i just dont get it (i was playing a mesmer at the time so from my point of view i just saw people drop and then died myself.. but..). and it isnt the first team i saw there using garbage like wastrels worry etc, i think i even saw aV use it or something.

so WTF is going on in gvg. why are such crappy skills good there, and why arent tombs builds useable in gvg?

the only difference i can think of that makes some sense is having a runner for the flag. but thats just one player...?

Deathlord · Sep 25, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

GvG is like playing 3 rounds of HOH. You can win the first battle, but if you lose the other two, you're still an overall loser. Skills don't have to be super fast and simple anymore. You can launch a complex combo that might seem like crap because in HoH you really only get one chance. GvG, you come back and fight again over and over, if it doesn't work once, you try it again. Basically, think of the HOH Burial Grounds as the GvG Playstyle, except your priest is now heavily guarded with immovable objects and NPC's. (And if the priest dies [Guild Lord], you lose automatically).

smurfhunter · Sep 25, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

still doesnt explain why an hoh build wont work. go in and wipe them out repeatedly, might even be better you have multiple chances with that perm res thing.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 26, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

IMO, one of the main differences is that almost all teams use flag runners. While the flag runner can help out the team in battle, most of the time they're constantly running the flag back and forth or assaulting the other runner (with the objective to kill or at least stall them). In essence the main battle is played out with 7 on 7, which does change builds considerably in my mind.

If a team doesn't use a dedicated runner, the other team has a very good chance to obtain morale boosts, plus the runner will join the battle anyway. So while it's an 8 v 7 for a bit, it's soon an 8 v 8 where the other team has morale boosts recharging their skills and keeping their DP down.

About different skills being used: I'm not so sure. Those guys were using diversion + wastrel's against us I hear....I would guess you're just seeing a lot more varied builds in GvG because it isn't absolutely bombarded by FotM one-trick-pony builds.

romO · Sep 26, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

morale = EVERYTHING in gvg

smurfhunter · Sep 26, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

hmmm well since like every tombs build uses a necro for corpses, maybe you could just substitute that out for a runner? maps are so big in gvg you really dont need to eat the corpses. and theres no altar ish thing.

i still dont really get it >.<

romO · Sep 26, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

le big mac thats pretty much exactly right. necros are definetely not necessary in gvg because maps are so big and corpse skills wont do much. and runners are vital so making that switch is logical.

smurfhunter · Sep 26, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

yea but then why the hell use crap like wastrels worry and life siphon

but then can i say take a regular balanced hoh team, drop the necro for a runner and go gvg with that? its gonna work?

romO · Sep 26, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

life siphon is commonly used as a cover hex in a drain/degen build. wastrels worry also works with drain because they cant cast and it does some small damage (you need all the damage you can get with degen). it isnt too outlandish to see someone running those in tombs, to be honest. its not used too often, and it is interesting, but it does work. hoh teams do work pretty decently in gvg, as long as you remember to have a runner, and remember to modify anything that you need to in order to suit the terrain.

smurfhunter · Sep 26, 2005, 02:05 AM // 02:05

hmph. it just seemed like a tombs build would send this one home crying.

Alone) · Sep 26, 2005, 03:37 AM // 03:37

SEEMS like. But it's how one plays. One will find that having different amounts of players changes strategies drastically. There are times when people just have to get used to playing, and be versatile and flexible. It's not like skills are better here, and suck here. Just how you use them. I feel that every skill has its own use. And each is used in a different way.

Rey Lentless · Sep 26, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I'm used to building for gvg. Having that 8th guy in tombs makes it soo much easier to build. It's also much easier to get back in the match in gvg. Instead of just one hero for moral boosts, the flag stand can swing the match back and forth by large margins. And in order to win, you usually have to have a rather large lead because you have the npcs to deal with, and if you push too far.. you can lose your advantage, the stand.. and end up losing the match.

The map type makes a huge difference too.

Darc.Syde · Sep 26, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

still doesnt explain why an hoh build wont work. go in and wipe them out repeatedly, might even be better you have multiple chances with that perm res thing.

becuase in GvG, ghost pathing and the whole ghost win condition doesnt exist...

Moskel · Sep 26, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Some HoH builds will work in GvG, some won't. A build specifically designed to win Altar maps probably isn't the best bet for GvG while a build designed to destroy the opposing team on relic runs may do a lot better (your relic runner becomes the flag runner, you fight the opposing team trying to slow/kill their flag runner, you start getting morale boosts, you win eventually).

The other thing is a GvG build needs to have staying power, exhaustion = bad, poor energy management = bad. In HoH you can get away with those because the battles are often one and done or a 45 second burst of firepower until you can wand the rest of the enemies to death.

Depending on your build wells can be very important in GvG as they are in HoH. Most of the maps might be big but if your opponent is using wells forcing you to give up territory or fight them in a place you might not want to the advantage goes to them.

On maps like the desert, ice, and druid movement also becomes critical. Something foreign to HoH is having three very important places on the map and deciding between which ones you're going to give the highest priority to (your Guild Lord, enemy Guild Lord, and the Flag Stand). A team that moves as a team and is able to quickly pick off extended targets can give you ulcers on those maps.

Ask yourself this question about your build and if you can answer yes then you've got a chance at it working in GvG....

Can my build stand at the flag stand with 7/8 members, stay alive, and every so often kill somebody on the enemy team?

If the answer to that is yes, you can win GvG...eventually the enemy runs out of res signets, eventually they have to retreat, you gain a morale boost and then can move onto the next phase which is invading the base...

That being said I've won a GvG that went 90 minutes (after the 30 min Victory or Death too) and we -never- killed a single player on the enemy team. If we stood and fight they just thrashed us but we had better movement and we were able to control morale and keep them through movement from being able to assault our Guild Lord. Eventually we wore them down, they lost focus for a bit and we were able to get enough offense headed into their Guild Lord to kill it before their healers could get back. Stuff like that you can't do in HoH and its why I love GvG -- raw guts, perserverance, and tactics > raw build strength.

Mitsu Bishi · Sep 26, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Yes, GvG can produce upsets like no other kind of PvP. We had a cruel match against a team heavy on mesmers. They were crushing our monks at the flagstand so they couldn't heal and a lot of us were dying. We retreated and tried again, same result. So basically most of us had 30% death penalty (or even more) and we thought the match lost. But when they assaulted our base, the combined efforts of us and the NPCs were enough to kill them, our runner sneaked out and captured the flag and steadily we got morale back. When they recaptured we made a fake move through the side door of our base and they went back to keep us from reaching their lord (which we never intended). Instead it left the flagstand wide open for our runner to recapture again and he was able to kill their runner. This broke them apart as we got all our morale back and they had their death penalties now. The fight went on until VoD but it was downhill from there for us. This is the exciting part about GvG - you can turn matches around, you can win by winning a battle of flag runners, you can win by overpowering your opponent, you can win by making a crucial stand inside of your base. And GvG doesn't favor FOTM builds but unique and intelligent team builds and that's why I like it so much.

Beqxter · Sep 26, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

My guild does a lot of GvG, but hardly ever Tombs. Every time we go in to Tombs, we usually get stomped because we tend to run the balanced, flexible teams that fare better in GvG. And there's a LOT less FotM in GvG - I've yet to come across an IWAY team, and only once or twice did we run into Spirit Spam.

Much, if not all, of GvG is really about battlefield control more than it is about skills. The really successful teams that we come across are not ones that run a specialized build, but ones that REALLY know how to move. Knowing when to advance and when to retreat, knowing how to draw out the enemy team, fragment them and make them fight on your terms, knowing how to use the terrain and the NPC's, these are all vital. And surprise is a much smaller element, since the game is so much more forgiving of error - if an enemy team takes us down, by the time we're all down we usually know what they did, and can adapt our strategy to (hopefully) overcome it the next time. In Tombs, when you're dead you're dead: game over. Me, I prefer GvG.

smurfhunter · Sep 27, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Moskel i think you answered the question. tombs matches are usually short, definetly in the < 5 minute range (usually) while gvg's are like always alot longer. that almost by itself means you need a new build. thanks for the post ^^

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 27, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I missed the glory days of Prismatic... When I had guild members who were too active [those without jobs or social lives] and we GvG'ed each night to, what seemed to us, a phenomenal ranking of 210...

Then school and work, and the military, and lots of other things started making lots of our key officers to become inactive. For days at a time. [that's right 2-3 days, 3 freakin' days...]

That was enough time to cause what people call a degeneration effect where my best and brightest guild mates and officers started leaving just because real life set in and they couldn't game with others who didn't play 24/7...

What REAALLLLYY freakin' pisses me off is when they leave, and then whisper me for skill builds since they think I'm a guru in skill building and strategy. [which is false since I get about 90% of my info from you guys and add a twist here and there...

]

Another thing I've noticed is that people in PuGs I'm in are in guilds that DO NOT TEACH their members the basics... God, if you want to LEARN how to play, join a guild that'll help you!

[you can join my guild, I need people to teach and learn how to play. At my core, I love teaching...

One learns in the process of teaching as well... Just don't expect the best of activity beyond 1-2 hours a day ;_;]

But enough of my gvg problems, gvg used to be my favorite pasttime as well... GvG is the bomb...

PaulOtt · Sep 27, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

WW is used by hex heavy teams to bust through Hex Breaker. At super high Blood specs, Life Siphon lasts a long time for cheap energy and is spammable. I'm willing to bet the other team had Mantra of Peristence and skills like Conjure Phantasm too.

Degen builds can be suprisingly effective in GvG, where you can spread out and overload your hexes/conditions continually. They're less useful in Tombs, in part due to the time issue as stated above, simply because it is hard to hold an altar or kill a relic runner with a bunch of hexes/conditions.

Ollj · Sep 28, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

GvG is WAY more strategical and tactical.