Curse

smurfhunter · Oct 06, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Infuse health with a large amount of health, can be a scary thing. I've seen upwards of 3000hp heals

How's that for efficiency?

ummm

infuse health at 16 healing heals for "112% of the amount of hp sacrificed", which means that for a 3000 hp heal you would need something like 6000 hp

unless i remember the numbers wrong, which is very possible

Saba The Hobo · Oct 06, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

...smiting enchantments...

It still took 4 people dedicated to enchanting you to trigger DK...

Quote:

Infuse health with a large amount of health, can be a scary thing. I've seen upwards of 3000hp heals

How's that for efficiency?

Exactly what I was getting at

. I've heard alot of people say it's an excellent anti-spike, I've just never played around with it since it does wipe out half your health bar. Going to have to start playing around with it, so I don't BiP myself to death on my monk

.

Takes some doing to get those high numbers though. Symbiosis and enchant stacking on the monk, and aura of faith/life attunement on the target are a must, I'd imagine.

Patrograd · Oct 06, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

what sort of efficiency do you get from vigorous spirit cast onto a warrior or ranger attacking using frenzy/tigers fury etc?

I would imagine the heal is as good as breeze for half the energy.

Sharpsight · Oct 06, 2005, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Excellent info!

It would be nice to see vigorous spirit added for various weapon speeds, calculated for attacking constantly throughout the entire duration. If you don't want to calculate it, then I could crunch the numbers tonight.

Shouldn't this be added as a guide on the main site?

Ollj · Oct 06, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

No Ollj... we still don't buy into your attribute efficiency theories that don't translate into actual game play.

they do every day.

wheel · Oct 06, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

some statistical analysis would be greatfully useful to backup your BS theories, ollj. everyone knows that you're wrong, we'd just like you to quit spouting off about them.

Rey Lentless · Oct 06, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

The great thing about infuse health is the quick cast.

Before ether renewal was changed, I liked it on emo healers.

jesh · Oct 06, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Wheel, would you mind explaining how casting mending is more efficient than an orison, with the maintained cost? I'm not arguing with you.. just I'd think there would be more monks with mending on the skill bar if this were the case.

smurfhunter · Oct 06, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

correct me if im wrong, but the numbers explain the effiency of healing. so very probably, its more efficient to cast mending on someone then to continuously cast orison on them, but that doesnt mean that mending is better than orison since you wont be spamming orison.

its all situational, but at least this kind of table removes the doubt about what gives you more healing per energy.

Mercury Angel · Oct 06, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

The reason why mending isn't as efficient as it's optimum is because the efficiency only applies to actual healing done.

When someone is fully healed, Mending is worthless, and provides 0 efficiency.

A heal that healed 1,000,000 for 25 energy would be the most energy efficient spell (As opposed to Signet of Devotion being a signet) in the game, but nobody would use it for obvious reasons. Nobody has 1 million health to heal. It'd be cheaper to boon a strong heal like Heal Other.

The problem with mending is that it just doesn't give enough health to make much of a difference under fire, and when the target isn't under fire, it's usually wasted.

On the other hand, you can control the energy efficiency of direct heals far more easily.

wheel · Oct 06, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

the reason why people dont use mending and if they do, why they shouldnt use mending is simple-

the peak healing efficiency of mending is after the 10 energy initial cost is discounted for, basically when theres an abundance of energy, like before the battle, where you can cast and regen the energy imperviously. in battle though, the actual healing efficiency of mending is between 4.2 HP/E and 24 HP/E (given 16 heal & 13 divine favor)

4.2 HP/E being the divine favor boost (42) divided by the 10 energy cost of mending. that's the lowest healing efficiency it can have, since it can be disenchanted with only a health gain of 42 HP. it would then scale up to 24 HP/E for the duration of its effect.

that's why mending is inefficient and shouldn't be used except in very conditional situations.

wheel · Oct 06, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

On Infuse Health

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saba The Hobo

Pretty interesting info Wheel. Might start playing around with Infuse after all.

It's a great spell, when used correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

infuse health at 16 healing heals for "112% of the amount of hp sacrificed", which means that for a 3000 hp heal you would need something like 6000 hp

It's actually 138% of the amount of HP sacrificed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Infuse health with a large amount of health, can be a scary thing. I've seen upwards of 3000hp heals

How's that for efficiency?

It's great efficiency, except for one thing, the target that you're healing probably doesn't have max 3000 HP to be healing. The build would have to be very specialized to have the monk AND the target ally have that much HP, and there would have to be quite a few enchantments up for that to happen :-)

Overall though, Infuse Health is a good spell, but it's fairly conditional. It's a clutch heal that on its initial effect, is awesome. It heals a target that's being spiked very quickly and efficiently. It's over the duration of the battle (read, after the first heal) that its inefficiency comes into play. I also noted the *net* efficiency of Infuse Health, which factors in the lost HP of the monk casting it. Yes, it may heal 355 HP, but it also drops your monk's HP down by 227. That's quite a drop. when you factor in the net efficiency of infuse health, you get a healing efficiency of only 12.8 HP/E. So it's a great clutch heal, but terrible utility heal.

rii · Oct 06, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Ha, ye old ether renewal with lots of enchants and infuse. 10 seconds of godly healing..... pity about the other 20.......

wheel · Oct 06, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Ha, ye old ether renewal with lots of enchants and infuse. 10 seconds of godly healing..... pity about the other 20.......

it's pretty hard to burn through 100 energy in 20 seconds, even if you are spamming heals. it was a very good build.

I Farm Sigils · Oct 06, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

I'll add healing breeze as soon as I get home and can access guild wars. also, I'll add contemplation of purity and anything else i can think of.

EDIT: Added Contemplation of Purity and Healing Breeze

Like most people should know by now, it's obvious that Healing Breeze is awful. Less healing efficient than Orison, plus it's healing over time. Just awful.

Unfortunately you fail to recognize the actual 12 second duration(an extra 36 healing), or the effect it has on dwayna's(20+ more per cast).

Breeze/Dwayna's is absolutely amazing at stopping hex/degen builds...

As someone else said, It's nice to be able to throw a heal when someone is at 90% hp, than to wait till they are around 70ish to maintain maximum efficiency. Especially on a Word Healer, when you maximum effeciency appears at sub 50%.

Ultimately you should never have more than one monk with Breeze to prevent wasteful stacking.

Phades · Oct 06, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Ha, ye old ether renewal with lots of enchants and infuse. 10 seconds of godly healing..... pity about the other 20.......

With aura of restoration it could still be used sparingly durring the downtimes following the ether renewal burst. Being used sparingly, i believe was the original intent of the spell, given the nature of its effect. Although it does seem more necromancer styled than monk in nature though. Sure mesmers have illusion of weakness, but not every profession has one out of place life sacrifice skill with a potent effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

it's pretty hard to burn through 100 energy in 20 seconds, even if you are spamming heals. it was a very good build.

Only time i would do that is if i had divine boon up and was using infuse health regularly between the protection or smite spam. Then again, i only ever used the build like that in pve against the kryta titans, so i dunno how valid it is in other venues.

I am curious though how your numbers change under the sustained divine spirit effect making the healing spells 1/5e (or with boon 3/7e?) with using glyph of renewal.

legandry · Oct 06, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Signet of Devotion: 89 HP | ∞ HP/E

Actually, that is wrong, as dividing by zero does not give you infinity, simply an undefined number (if you graph it, it is a vertical asymptote). If you don't believe me, pull out your calculator and try it

But otherwise, great job compiling this data!

wheel · Oct 07, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by legandry

Actually, that is wrong, as dividing by zero does not give you infinity, simply an undefined number (if you graph it, it is a vertical asymptote). If you don't believe me, pull out your calculator and try it

But otherwise, great job compiling this data!

I realize that dividing by zero gives you an undefined answer. Instead of writing simply stating "undefined," (and confusing a lot of people) I instead did a calculus exercise in limits to define what it would approach.

y = 89 / X

X here is the energy cost of Signet of Devotion, which in a minute, we are going to estimate not to be 0, but some very very very small number. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. The graph of 89/X will be similar to this one (below) in feature.

At any rate, let's get on to the limit. Now you're saying, but the energy cost for Signet of Devotion isn't a very very small number, it's 0. We'll look at that with the use of limits.

This basically states that as X approaches zero from the positive side (the right side on the graph above; you're going from right to left), the function 89/x gets closer and closer to infinity, that is, as x goes from .1 to .01 to .001 to .0001 and so on, all the way to ."infinity zeroes"1, the 89/x gets closer and closer to infinity. So I was incorrect in saying that the efficiency for Signet of Devotion is infinity; it approaches infinity. It's the equivalent to a spelling error in math.

To all the people on the forums who are rusty in their Calculus or haven't taken Calculus, just nod your heads and agree. :-)

wheel · Oct 09, 2005, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I am curious though how your numbers change under the sustained divine spirit effect making the healing spells 1/5e (or with boon 3/7e?) with using glyph of renewal.

The DS/GoR build is one of the reasons why I wanted to make this data in the first place. That build is all about raw unadulterated healing power, and efficience.

Basically, (and I'll be putting out numbers to demonstrate this later- expect an Excel spreadsheet with all sorts of goodies) 5 energy spells are 500% as energy efficient. That is, per energy spent, they heal 5 times as much. Booned 5e spells are 233% more energy efficient (since the Divine Spirit effect does not apply to Divine Boon's Energy Cost. 10e spells are 200% as efficient. Booned 10e spells are 171% more efficient. Obviously it's in the best interest of a DS/GoR build to only use 5e spells with regard to energy efficience, but that really serves no purpose because we aren't looking into two critical factors in the skill rating process: casting time and recharge time. That's why it might be more efficient overall to include Divine Boon or throwing in a 10e spell because there's no way that you can spend your energy under DS/GoR even spamming heals. Don't believe me?

46e Monk
15 Divine Spirit, +20% enchantment length staff

Glyph of Renewal: -5e (41e)
Divine Spirit: -10e (31e)
16.8 sec Divine Spirit Length
15 1e spells: -15e (16e)
Energy Regeneration 16 sec * 4/3 energy/sec: +21.3e (37e)
Glyph of Renewal: -5e (32e)
Divine Spirit: -5e (27e)
16.8 sec Divine Spirit Length
15 1e spells: -15e (12e)
Energy Regeneration 16 sec * 4/3 energy/sec: +21.3e (33e)

During the casting of 15 1e spells (you'd be hard pressed to even get that many in because of aftercast of spells), you are at a net loss of 9 energy. Once you are in the cycle of Divine Spirit/Glyph of Renewal, Divine Spirit costs 5 instead of 10, meaning after a cycle of GoR,DS,15 1e spells, you're at a net loss of only 4 energy. Under normal conditions, you are not going to be casting 15 times in the 16 or so second period, meaning that you will be sitting at 46/46 energy most of the time.

It's a very powerful build, and it lets you spam 5e, 7e, and 10e spells better than any other energy management tool around.

Arcador · Oct 09, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Just to note* Breeze is 10 second spell, and sometimes you cast it and while it works, you heal with other spells just to keep the target (or yourself) alive. Of course 10 energy can be live saving in other situations, but also they may not save the same someone even with 2x5 mana spells spamming. It's advantage over healing seed is - you can cast it on yourself