Curse

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

i actually disagree with you there, to everyone that comes from the american district as their 'home' district, its only natural to go to american district 1 for pvping in tombs, and my point was the international district is a place with much higher quality teams, as well as significantly less imaturity. its not an opinion, its a fact

asdar · Oct 12, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Well, see now I've gotta break my own rule and diverge from the intention of this thread.

They can't be that much better than american servers if you're there because you're not very considerate on here. You've intentionally turned a well intentioned thread with self serving BS.

To me you're the worst type of PvP player that makes new comers feel incompetent instead of helping them out. I've played on both and the same stuff happens on US and International servers.

Sure you'll help out by telling players what skills to bring and how to play their class and if you die I'm sure it's never your fault.

This guide isn't for ranked players, if you know your rank then you don't need to read this.

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

i actually dont see the point in telling people to go to the american districts where they will undoubtedly end up waiting forEVER only to get some really bad team that gets sent back quickly. nice to newbies or not, thats the way it is. you dont have to be ranked to be in international districts... where did you get that from >.< its just that the smart people go to international districts, and it just so happens that part of these smart people are the ones with high ranks...

where did you get the thing that i alawys tell people what to use? do you actually enjoy spending about 20 minutes arguing with someone over 1 skill? if i lead a group, and if its my build, i tell people what to run. if it isnt, i *ask* people what i should run, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

i feel like i just killed this post >.<

woops

Kabale · Oct 13, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Well both of you have good points, smurfhunter is basically just taking this guide a step further by letting people know that PvP isn't always a happy tree-hugging place like PvE. Others will boss you around, most of the time with very good intentions (ie, to make a build that will not fall after the first or second round). Listening to people's advice is a good bet, that's for sure.

About the districts, I can imagine what it's like, but I play on European servers so it's a bit less...noisy. I chose to go to International districts because there I knew I could find players using ts/vent to discuss builds, which is what I think is the most important part of PvP. There's only very few people using ts/vent on the home districts.

Quote:

To me you're the worst type of PvP player that makes new comers feel incompetent instead of helping them out.

That's the problem with chat. People can come across very rude, but I assure you that if you go onto ts/vent with these guys, more likely than not they'll be surprisingly polite. My experience in Int districts is what keeps me coming back there, and I don't even remember the last time I was trying to LFG in home districts.

Alexandria Kotov · Oct 13, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

where the conversation sounded like einstein and bush having a serious talk about life, compared to what was going on in the american districts anyway.

Did you just compare EINSTEIN and GEORGE BUSH?! Bush can't tie his own damn SHOELACES in the morning!

asdar · Oct 13, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

My apologies Smurfhunter, I shouldn't have reacted to your statements so quickly.

Anyway, back to the guide.

I don't know a way to word this as anything other than a bullet list so I'll call out some advice in as general a way as possible that I think applies for tombs/HoH.

1. Communicate with your team, if you can't then be polite and finish the run if they're not being rude and excuse yourself from the group to find one that talks a bit. Teamspeak/Vent seems weird at first but it makes PvP so much nicer in my opinion.

2. Take note of what the other players on your team are casting as enchantments and write them down. If you're unsure why someone would buff themselves with something ask, or if you don't feel comfortable search this site.

3. Note down what killed your team after a battle, everything you can remember anyway. What classes they were, if you were degen'd, poisoned, hexed, or whatever. Then try to come up with a counter for what killed you on paper. (it's impossible to counter on your own, it's a team thing but I think it's important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of current builds)

4. Pick out players on your team that you liked and add them to your friends list. The best way to play tombs is in a designed group. The only way I know to get that is to have a guild or a large friends list. For a beginner I'd say to try and make a point of noting one player every Tombs run.

5. If you don't know how or why you lost ask, you're going to look foolish occassionally, but it's better to pull that tooth in one quick yank than to go on and on ignorant of the reason.

6. Try and stick with the group if they don't break up. It's worth the wait for one or two players that always want to rebuild after a loss. I feel that learning the ins and outs of Tombs is an incremental process. If you stay the next match you might win easily and start to get some insight into the rock-paper-scissors system that A-Net is trying to set up.

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 13, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

to the best of my knowledge, being a 'skilled' warrior will not change the cost of any energy skills, meaning you most probably want all gladiators armor except the boots which should be knights boots... or if you use stonefists gloves add those in as well.

its irritating when someone (like you) decides to be all controversial on a post thats meant for _beginners_ so if you really think you have a valid case for the dragon armor, go post it somewhere else >.<

I throw in my vote in the name of efficiency. I don't care if you're noob or not. I say all noobs should learn how to use a warrior efficiently. Thus taking them out of noobland and putting them into learned-ville. Telling new people that there's no option but to get more and more energy isn't very good and if I irritated you, that's great. I'm glad I did. I know of 3 things for certain...

1. noobs stay noobs until you teach them GOOD lessons instead of noob-lessons.

2. Dragon Armor resists elemental damage. Gladiator's does not. If you need that much energy, don't play warrior... Warrior's have skills that feed them energy so what's your point?

3. Efficiency is greater than all. I try my best to be efficient, sometimes I fail and admit defeat. Fact is, if you can't be flexible with your build due to equipment constraints. You are therefore inefficient and forever nerfed in my opinion...

Now, to stay on topic, in either pvp or pve, [which is good since most people learn to play both anyway], I didn't really see many posts on figuring out a "battle System".

Battle System - a set of skills designed specifically to synergize with your role as a player on the battle field and mesh with the other roles on your team...

First thing you should do when you're on any team/mode, ask your party what they're doing. Nothing wrong with that and if they call you a noob cause you don't know what THEY'RE doing, then they're the noobs who obviously don't care for your well being or their own for that matter.

Efficiency is capital here.

How do you know if you're efficient? If you can get your job done using as little effort as possible...

Warrior example: using as little energy as possible to deal a horrendous amount of damage/conditions.

Elementalist example: getting as much energy back as possible after unloading your 25+ e. skills into your enemies

Ranger example: how much downtime do you have between preparations/stances? Can you shorten said downtime?

These questions you should ask yourself or your guildmates when creating an efficient Battle System for any class.

Another rule of thumb is to minimize weaknesses. If you're purely focused on just one thing, the ability for the enemy to snuff you out increased 3 fold...

If you bring just a single skill or 2 to compensate for problems that you're certain will arise while fighting [for me they're Plague Touch and Rend], then you become more efficient in that you're much harder to counter...

Beqxter · Oct 13, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I think this is an admirable thing you're doing, asdar, and I thank you and all the other people offering thoughtful contributions to this guide. Wish it had been around when I was learning the ropes. GvG is rather complex and (in my mind) the pinnacle of GW PvP (others will argue this, no doubt). Can't wait to see what's coming there.

I have a small contribution to make, hopefully it isn't too advanced for this guide:

THE METAGAME
If you're reading this, then you're already a good way to understanding the metagame, since the forums are the best place to get a handle on it. The metagame is, simply, the overall position of the PvP community at a given time, and if you're going into Tombs, in particular, it's important that you know what and where it is.

Right now, the metagame's flavor-of-the-month (FotM) is IWAY - won't go into detail on what that is here, there are countless threads on it. Before IWAY there was Ranger Spike, before that Spirit Spam - and so on. The FotM is important to know because it is what you are most likely to come across while you're in Tombs, and if you know what you're fighting, then you'll know better how to counter it. Also, if a particular build is very popular, you can use that to your advantage to ease your way into Tombs - if everyone is looking for a specific W/R build, then you can do the research, unlock the necessary skills and runes, create the character and more easily find your way onto a team. It's cookie-cutter, but as Yukito would no-doubt agree, it's efficient. That, and there's no better way (in my opinion) of learning how to counter something than to play it yourself and pay attention to what beats you.

The metagame is larger than FotM, though. It is knowing who the top guilds are and who the key players within those guilds are. It is keeping track of Anet's skill changes and the forums' responses to know which, at that moment, are the "good" skills and which are "bad" - I use quotes because these skills may not actually BE good or bad, but the majority opinion of them brands them such, and therefore you are more likely to see other players using the "good" skills than the "bad," and you can take that into consideration when designinig your own skillset.

The metagame is, unsurprisingly, most evident outside the game itself. If you're reading this forum, that's good! Read others. Find two or three fansites that appeal to you, and check them often. Learn who your favorite posters are and search for their posts. If they post builds, try the builds out in random arena and see how they appeal to your playing style. If they post strategies, keep them in mind when you go into battle.

The metagame is the jargon that you'll come across in local channel and over your headset (for example, what IWAY stands for and means in this context) - and sadly one of the quickest ways of being branded a noob is to not know what someone's talking about. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open, try to figure it out from context or ask a friend, but if it seems vital that you understand, bite the bullet and ask politely. It's better than ignorance.

2_fingers · Oct 13, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by deolmstead

but if it seems vital that you understand, bite the bullet and ask politely. It's better than ignorance.

well said.

Hmm one point that should be stressed. Ts and Vent are a basic requirement. It simply is much better to communicate with ts. Even if u dont have a mic, at least download it so that u can hear the instructions over the speakers. Its so much easier to hear stuff this way rather than reading it while in battle.

If you are new, best thing to do is go to a district, and just wait. Watch what people are saying - check which class is most wanted. See the attitudes of people. Simply observing may allow u to view certain builds that you'd only see when u are facing them - and that may be too late.

Bast · Oct 14, 2005, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

Did you just compare EINSTEIN and GEORGE BUSH?! Bush can't tie his own damn SHOELACES in the morning!

Haha. I was gonna post something similar to this myself. Too bad you beat me to it =(

Yukito, you're clouding up a potentially good thread with class-specifics. This thread may help a newbie go through metamorphosis and become somewhat competent. Stop please.

Kabale · Oct 14, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Very good advice there, deolmstead. This should be stickied!!

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 14, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bast

Yukito, you're clouding up a potentially good thread with class-specifics. This thread may help a newbie go through metamorphosis and become somewhat competent. Stop please.

I refuse!!!

asdar · Oct 14, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

GvG is hard for me as my experience is limited.

I GvG a bit and our record is pretty good but I'm definitely not an expert. Any advice to supplement mine is welcome and if I post something fallacious please point it out.

Basics of GvG:

Guild versus guild battles take place in one of the teams actual guild Hall. You can look at all the guild halls by going down to the docks in Lions arch. All the different guild halls are open to explore. To participate in Guild versus guild a guild must have a hall. You don't have to belong to a guild to get a taste of GvG and can join a guild for 8 hours as a guest for 100 gold if you know a friend who will have you.

Guild vs guild is always an 8v8 battle but you can take guests or henchmen, the only rule being you have to have 4 real people. There are two types of GvG, random match, which is rated, or challenge which is not. When you start a random match GW will search for someone to fight that is as close as possible to your rank. Sometimes that takes a bit of time but I've never had to wait too long.

There are two ways to win a GvG match, Kill the other team enough times that they all have 60 death penalty and can't res or kill their guild Lord. The guild lord is a computer controlled character surrounded by a few other computer controlled characters that will not move in battle.

When the match starts you'll be in an area with computer people including the Guild Lord along with your 7 other team members. Laying on the ground in front of you will be a flag.

The flag is important because somewhere on the map is a flag stand. If either team has their flag on the flag stand for two minutes they will get a morale boost. The other benefit is that along with the boost in stats and reduction in any death penalty come a re-charging of res signet rings.

The basic strategy points or goals are to kill the other team, capture the flag stand, protect your guild lord and kill their guild lord. How you accomplish those points I'll leave to the experts. Many teams will try to kill the guild lord immediately, we call those gankers, many will try to capture the flag stand area and kill the other team. It's up to you how your team plays and what you defend.

Most flag stands will have an area of slow or damage around them to create a congested area of battle. It's a very good idea to go to all of the halls and plan out your route or routes carefully and get so you know where the important features of any map are.

That's basically it in a nutshell, I'll put a few definitions down and then let everyone else have their say adding points as i think of them.

Runner - is a person designated to carry the flag. They usually have some type of sprint. Many teams will capture the flag stand and have someone waiting to bring up another flag, many won't capture it figuring they're capture after the other team does but before the two minute morale boost takes effect.

Guild thief - opens enemy gates, important to keep alive but will respawn. Flag stands are usually in the open and won't require a thief but when you go for the fortress you'll need one to get in many gates.

Bodyguards - protect the guild lord

smurfhunter · Oct 14, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

Did you just compare EINSTEIN and GEORGE BUSH?! Bush can't tie his own damn SHOELACES in the morning!

i just thought it would be funny to hear einstien patiently explaining to bush... "the speed of light is const-- no not the chainsaw!"

anyway...

just to expand a teeny bit on the GVG system, to my knowledge every map is *basically* the same, i.e. you have a defender and an attacker. however, the difference between the two positions is slight. each map has a base for each team, usually 2 different methods of going between the bases, with a flag stand right in the middle, usually containing some sort of "environmental" snare around it such as quicksand, lava, etc.

in a typical GVG you would do the same thing you normally do, that is to go take out the other team. there are differences from tombs matches, like there are NPC's which, although they seem like total pushovers, can really influence the match so kill as many of them as you can if you cant see the other team.

the runner is incredibly important in a gvg match, since as many people said before, holding the flag stand can make the difference in a match. for that reason, you would probably need 1 person on your team designated to simply run the flag as often as possible. this person should have some kind of speed boost, some way of killing or hindering the other teams flag runner (since they will meet), as well as some form of self healing since they wont be near your teams monk(s). what classes you use for this depend really on what you like best, but possibilities for such a runner exist in almost every class combination.

Beqxter · Oct 14, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Unlike Tombs, GvG is populated with a number of NPCs that can make a real difference in the fight. Collectively referred to as "the defenses," they are sort of like henchmen over which you have no control.

The positioning of the defenses varies from island to island, but usually consists of:

Footmen: warriors. They will attack any enemy who comes in range, and will continue to attack them if they pull back slowly - very easy to pull.

Archers: They will not pull. As of a recent update, they all carry pin down, and will cripple the enemy when it draws near. They don't pack a huge amount of damage, but get in range of enough of them and the damage, combined with the pindown, can be a real threat.

Bodyguards: A deceptive name, in my opinion, since they're casters. They'll unleash firestorms, maelstroms, meteors (?), etc if you get too near the Guild Lord, and are probably the most dangerous NPCs on the field. Take them out quickly.

The Guild Thief: 3 of the 8 islands (I think) have fortresses with gates, and you cannot gain entrance unless A) the other team is foolish enough to leave the gate open when you're close enough to rush in or B) you bring your Guild Thief to pick their locks. The Guild Thief can help the fight a bit since she brings a bow, but if she dies you have to run all the way back to your own fortress to get her again. Killing the enemy's thief is a priority, but not a particularly high one.

(side note: on those islands with fortresses, it should be noted there are also trebuchets. At the start of the match they are broken, and you need to fix them with a repair kit you will find on the ledge overlooking the central flag tower area. Once repaired, the treb fires into the enemy courtyard, dealing insane amounts of damage to anyone in the area. The courtyard is big, though, and the site of the incoming missile is random, so you can't COUNT on it killing anyone hanging around in there. But if you are on the losing side of the equation, and the enemy has repaired YOUR treb, it's a really good idea to stay out of the courtyard and use the side gate).

The Guild Lord: Dude who just stands there and wails away on anyone who approaches him. Not all that powerful, but has a TON of health, and takes quite a while to kill. Killing your opponents Guild Lord wins the match.

Spikey_Kitten · Oct 16, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I wanted to add a TINY bit of detail on what the Teams for GvG can look like.

1. The minimum size of team is 5. (that includes hench, guildies, and guests) Though why you would want to go with a small team is beyond me.

2. A minimum of 50% of your team must be guild members (ie. Not henchmen or guests)

That means that if you want a full team, you must have at least 4 guild members playing. You can go in with 3 guild members, but that would limit you to 6 total teammates. (with a minimum of 5)

(if this is incorrect do correct me, but nicely please.)