Curse

asdar · Oct 11, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

I just recently met a bunch of people that just started PvP'ing and saw the other thread and thought that it was a good idea only to find that it had no real information for beginners and devolved further from there.

Let's try and build up a real beginners guide in a friendly manner. Try and stay away from builds or criticisms and stick to generalities and basic information. Please avoid flaming and we'll have a good guide at the end and I'll edit this out.

PVP - There are three styles of PvP, Guild vs Guild (GvG), Tombs (HoH) and Arena's (4v4) with arena's being broken in two, competition (random) and Team (picked team)

Basic PvP is to kill the other team before you. To do that you have to have a solid defense to survive and an offense that can kill through defenses.

Builds - builds are certain set ups that people create to fulfill a function in PvP, a protection monk build for example would be tasked with jobs from the protection section of the skills list. These skills are designed to prevent damage from ocurring for the most part but also include removing conditions.

There are also Team builds. A team build is usually designed to overcome one area of defense. For example an ele spike team will try and kill an opponent before the monks can heal, it's based on speed. A smiter build will focus their efforts on smiting. What people call a balanced build is one that takes from many classes and abilities.

Arenas - Random
Random arenas are fun and fast, no waiting and always quick matches. They're a good place to start your PvP journey although they usually only roughly translate to 8v8 as far as builds.

Key points to remember in Random arena is to be self sufficient. You can't count on having a monk, and if you're a monk you have to count on standing alone. If you don't have a way to defend yourself here you should look to a secondary class that has a good skill for defense. The one sure thing I think everyone agrees with for random is bring a res signet. Fast res'rs will very often beat better teams, res fast and hold the ctrl Key down when you click the signet so your team knows who cast first.

I'll continue this if I don't get too heavily flamed, feel free to continue but please try to format it as a guide and try not to prove your way is better.

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 11, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

In random arena, I don't bring one. I'd bet 9/10 that all my teammates have one if they're reading this so I see no reason to gimp my build with it.

My 'healing' isn't really for hp, it lies in the form of Plague Touch. Sometimes, you just need to heal hexes/conditions and dmg can be negligible. [good to be a warrior]

asdar · Oct 11, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Back to random arena basics.

What happens is you'll be paired up with three other totally random team mates. You might have all four monks, you might have no monks, you might have 4 mesmers, it's totally random. What many people go to random arena's for is to test out screwy builds.

If you get a good team and win 10 matches in a row they figure your team is good enough to move on to Team arenas. You don't have to wait or anything, it'll send you right in. This is a good segway to team.

Team arenas will start in the snowy arena on the map. You'll go in alone and have to invite or be invited to a group the same way as in a town for PvE. This is where team build start to form.

The concept of a team build can start anywhere. I like to split it into offense and defense to simplify things. I always try to figure a coordinated offense first because I think defensively too often but any method is good. For a newcomer to PvP I'd stick with the basics and try to make a build with 3 or 4 offensive skills in every slot 'cept the healers.

Get so you know what the skills are and when you should use them. Most skills will work better on either casters or melee. For instance blind crushes a warrior but doesn't hurt an elementalis. Mesmers more often than not have hex defense.

Targetting is when one of your team mates points out an enemy for a team focused attack. If your team mate targets someone, and you see a flag appear at the left edge of your party box you can attack the same target by clicking the T key or by mouse clicking on the tiny flag. This is important because many builds rely on focusing an attack to speed kill before a monk can heal.

smurfhunter · Oct 11, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

so far so good... dont tell me your gonna leave your guide like this? cmon add some more, your doing great

Entropius · Oct 12, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I'll throw in a few tips for players new to PvP.

1. Learn the skills. You can do this either while playing (read them as you see them) or go find them on a webpage. *Especially* learn what common hexes do, and what all the conditions do.

2. Don't attack hard targets first. Warriors have high armor in general; rangers have high armor against elemental damage. Some other classes might use skills to defend themselves against specific sorts of attacks. If someone has great defense against whatever you're packing, go mess with someone else.

3. Always carry a Res Signet. The exceptions to this rule are Healers and Protectors, and fast-casting Mesmer/Monks who can sometimes use Resurrect, Restore Life, or Vengeance.

4. Tune your build. After you win or lose a match, ask yourself: what won this for me? What beat me? Are there any skills I didn't use? Did I run out of energy too quickly? If so, what are some skills I can use to give me more energy?

5. Realize that you can't do everything. It's nearly impossible to make a single character that can defend itself from many kinds of threats and still pose a threat on its own. A team should have all the bases covered, but a single character cannot. In Competition Arenas, that means you might be on a team that can't remove hexes, can't remove conditions, can't remove enchantments, can't heal, or whatever. That's life in the Comp Arenas. Do the best you can.

6. Energy management is key. This isn't PvE where you can stop and catch your breath between fights. You want to have a good balance between skills that do stuff, and skills that give you energy so you can use your other skills that do stuff.

7. Tanking is useless. See Rule 2: if you're a hard target, it won't matter since nobody will hit you. Warriors should focus on dealing damage, not on staying alive: a warrior focused on absorbing punishment will just be ignored by the other team. This isn't to say that defensive skills are useless; on the contrary, they can be excellent. However, don't load up on them if you're a warrior or ranger.

8. (Etiquette) Do not ask to be healed or resurrected. Everyone knows you're hurt/dead, and if they can, they'll get to you.

9. DO ask for hex/condition removal, if someone has the capacity to do it. Someone with hex removal doesn't know whether that hex on you is a minor nuisance, or something absolutely debilitating.

10. Don't blindly attack enemy monks first. Sometimes there are other targets which will go down more easily, since the monk can Healing Touch himself. You're going to have to deal with the healing either way.

11. As a healer, don't start wanding targets unless you're sure there's no healing to be done. It slows your reaction time if you have to heal while you're in the middle of a swing.

12. Try to get a feel for how various character types play. Don't play the same character all the time.

13. Don't use more than one rune that subtracts health unless you're playing a Necromancer with sacrifice skills, and even then know what you're doing.

14. As a caster, learn how to use +15 energy / -1 energy regeneration items on weapon switch. This simple trick can save you when you're being energy-drained.

15. Respect damage-over-time effects. Life Siphon and Conjure Phantasm do 150 damage each -- and ignore armor.

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

one more piece of advice for new people: if you stubbornly argue over something dumb, it transports you from the 'newb' to the 'noob' realm...

wheel · Oct 12, 2005, 03:50 AM // 03:50

This first one is an absolute truth. If you do this, you are gimping yourself no matter what your preference about defense or damage reduction is:
If you're a warrior, don't wear all knight's armor. You only need one piece of Knight's armor to get the COMPLETE damage reduction effect.

This one is *slightly* subjective. It's understood as a near truth:
Gladiator's armor is much more useful than Dragon's armor. The defense gain of Dragon's is negligible, especially since you're going to be one of the last targets anyway. You're better off using Gladiator's and being able to use more energy based skills like Sprint, Frenzy, etc.

This one is pretty obvious:
For your helmet, use the +attrib of your weapon class. Dwarven for Hammer, Executioner for Axe, Duelist for Sword.

SnipiousMax · Oct 12, 2005, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Using anything besides Druid's Armor for a Ranger in pvp is pointless. The others are too conditional to be any real use.

Barrage for a Ranger in PvP is pointless because it's very rare that enemies bunch up. Likewise Ignite Arrows +dual Shot.

It's hard, but do not try to do to much, focus on three or four attributes. Try to fill a 'role' and make sure everyone knows what it is.

asdar · Oct 12, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Good additions everyone, I'm going to pick up at explaining some more basics but all of the advice threads are welcome.

One more basic thing about the team arena's is about one of the maps. You'll pop into an ice arena and this is the only team arena with a different strategy than just kill the enemy.

In the area you'll enter the arena at there will be a priest glowing your color, the same goes for the other side. The priest will res everyone on the team every 2 minutes, 2,4,6,8 and so on. You can kill the other teams priest and stop the res'ing or alternatively when someone is at 60 death penalty The priest will no longer res them. The priest won't move but will defend himself against attack with a hammer and a Heal Area.

The basic strategies for this arena are try to kill the other teams priest first then fight, Fight in the middle and then try to kill the priest before the other team res's and fight near your own priest to defend him and take advantage of the area heal. I won't say which method is best, I've seen all three work and it's not my purpose to spout my oninion here.

There is one other Team and Random arena that's a bit different in that victory isn't about killing the other team as a whole but rather getting the most kills. If you kill the mesmer 4 times and the monk once and they end up killing your whole team just as the timer goes you'll still win at 5-4, it's just the numbers that determine a winner.

The next area in PvP is Tombs/HoH. They're one and the same thing really, HoH is the ultimate goal of competing in the Tombs. Tombs is 8v8 and is selected teams only. You'll have to map to the Tomb of Primevil kings and join a group or form your own.

Tombs suffers from group seek problems. It's really hard to find a group there. You're much better off if you can form a guild group or a group of friends to go, even if it's just 5 and you have to gather some pickups.

When you enter the fight you'll be taken to an area with roughly 7 ghosts on a raised platform. The objective is to kill all of the ghosts as fast as possible. The faster you kill the more morale boost your team gets. This sounds easy but it depends on the build you're in and the coordination.

When you pop in the clock isn't moving and it's important to let anyone that has enchantments or stances to pop them up before you move forward. As soon as you move forward about 10 meters you'll see two monks poof into the air one on the left and one on the right. There are many strategies to killing the ghosts and I won't go into them much. I will say that the elementalist that's present right from the begining will almost always cast ward against melee and maelstrom. If you have an interupter it's beneficial to interupt that. That's purely situational though.

As long as your hero lives and you kill the ghosts you'll advance to face real people. You'll have a morale boost from 0-10 going in. There are a few different style matches that you'll see in Tombs and I'll have to add more a bit later about all that.

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 12, 2005, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

This one is *slightly* subjective. It's understood as a near truth:
Gladiator's armor is much more useful than Dragon's armor. The defense gain of Dragon's is negligible, especially since you're going to be one of the last targets anyway. You're better off using Gladiator's and being able to use more energy based skills like Sprint, Frenzy, etc.

I'd definitely swing the other route and say that Dragon's Hauberk is more useful than Gladiator's. I say this because a skilled warrior knows how to use as little energy as possible and with a zealous anything, he shouldn't have any need for extra energy max.

I've fought people who don't ignore warriors and instead were designed to slice through a warrior's 'hard' defense using every degen and armor ignoring skill in the book. [e/me anyone?]

Smart warrior's are quite fierce and if the enemy is anticipating one [TA or 8v8], they'll WANT him dead asap...

Schorny · Oct 12, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I've fought people who don't ignore warriors and instead were designed to slice through a warrior's 'hard' defense using every degen and armor ignoring skill in the book.

And what exactly is the benefit of a higher armor then?

I always find it nice to have more energy. And as a warrior I normally don't die (except I run frenzied in a bunch of traps - but then I deserve to die :/)

Why use as little energy as possible when you can use things like Holy Strike, Aftershock, Ward against Foes or non blockable attacks?

Energy is always nice to have (ok, there are situation where you don't care about energy, for example when you run succor or holy wrath on the monks and using Purge Signet) and if it only be to can always frenzy and/or sprint.

asdar · Oct 12, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Well, back to Tombs. I'm trying to avoid the temptation to argue points and specifics in an attempt to stay on track with the general guide for beginners theme.

The first battle against real people can be in one of many area's within the tombs. I don't remember the order of battles but I'll do my best to lay out a general direction.

It's important to note that how many battles and which areas you have to fight on to get to the final battle of the Hall of heroes is usually different. I believe it depends on the number of teams competing and timing. Sometimes you'll skip right to the second to last battle and sometimes you'll have to fight them all.

Generally, for now until I can find the info, the order is:

Team vs. Team (kill the other team)
Team vs. Team with a priest and Hero, priest res's every two minutes
Team vs. Team hold the alter, hero that last holds the alter and has a person alive when the clock gets to zero wins. This map has a team res chalice that you can drop to res everyone that's dead.
Another alter match in the golden hall
HoH

I know my memory is sketchy on these, if someone knows the arena's in Tombs better the help would be appreciated. I'm going to try looking them up now to edit in.

Kabale · Oct 12, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Guys, I just wrote this up on my Guild's forum.

Tomb of Primeval Kings

How it works:

Once you've formed a party, you click enter mission like you would on, you guessed it, a mission! The first round is a bunch of 'ghostlies' which isn't against other players yet. They are pretty strong, and will wipe out any team that isn't prepared for Tombs yet. If it takes longer than 2 minutes to kill all of them, you have no chance when you go inside the Tombs. (By the way, you have your Ghostly Hero with you here, just like in the Ascension missions, who must not die on this round. In latter rounds against other players, he gives the enemy a morale boost if they kill him, and also recharges ressurection signets, which is very important).

The ghostlies also give morale boosts, depending on how long it takes to wipe them out. Under 30 seconds is 10%, 30-1min is 8%, etc. You'll want to aim for 10% obviously but 6% is still doable, and 8% is considered normal for a good group.

There are several different maps in Tombs, some based on the missions in the Ascension, and they all follow a set order. However, sometimes, depending if there is a free slot somewhere, you might skip to a different map further down the ladder (at the end of the ladder is the Hall of Heroes). You'll on average play around 5-6 maps before you reach Hall of Heroes, but it is possible to reach it after beating the ghostlies in the very beginning (especially if a battle in the Hall of Heroes has just taken place (you'll know from the text in the chat)).

The maps are as follows:

Basic 8vs8

This is the first map in the chain, just after the ghostlies. Nothing special here, but can easily get you 10% if you manage to kill the enemy's ghostly hero before you kill the last person on the enemy's team.

8vs8 with Obelisks and Priest

Remember the Obelisks around the end of Ruins of Surmia? You'll see those on this map, and you'll need to take a flag to them to activate them. Generally, people don't use them as they are placed out of the way of the main battle area. You'll also have a Priest who will resurrect you every 2 minutes, so make sure that if you are beating a team, take out the Priest in time as well (Thirsty River anyone?).

This map used to hold more than 2 teams, but it seems only 2 teams spawn on this one anymore.

8vs8 Capture the Altar

With this one, you have to take your Hero to an Altar and capture it before the enemy hero takes it. If the enemy hero takes it first, you have to make sure you take him out and keep yours alive while he caps. A preview taste of what Hall of Heroes is going to be like, but on a much smaller scale.

8vs8vs8vs8

A larger battle, with 4 teams fighting each other. However, it doesn't all happen at once. Team 1 fights team 2, and team 3 fights team 4, and the winner of each fight eachother.

8vs8 Relic Run

Almost forgot about this one. Here you have to capture relics from the enemy team and bring them back to your Ghostly Hero. First signs of chaos, and a lot of teams fall on this map because they don't know what to do, or they don't have anyone fast enough to do it.

8vs8 with Priest

This place looks beautiful and will give you a taste of the nice environment to come in all the remaining maps. Basically, it's just an 8vs8 with a Priest to help you out.

8vs8vs8 Capture the Altar with Priest

Now things start spicing up. This is the first time you might end up facing more than one team of 8, and things can get pretty chaotic. The team that holds the Altar by the end of a 10 minute timer, wins. No more need to wipe out another team. Capturing the Altar in the beginning is dangerous, as you'll have 16 players facing you, but you'll get a regular morale boost every 2 minutes. Letting someone else capture means you'll have a team set up with the Altar, and another one dying to capture it too.
Most of the time, there will be a team that is confident enough to capture the Altar early on, and the two remaining teams usually wait for around the 2 min mark before making their move. It gets pretty tense, as you have to make sure your team can take out ghostly heroes pretty quickly and make sure your ghostly can reach up onto the altar (imagine, 24 players is pretty tough to get through). Area of effect spells are lethal here.

8vs8 Relic Run

This is the 2nd relic run, but in the beautiful scenery of the Halls. With some doors added here and there, it gets a lot more strategical, and only the best will survive this one.

AAAaaand.......

HALL OF HEROES

8vs8vs8 Capture the Altar, or 8vs8vs8vs8vs8 Capture the Altar

This is where it gets insane. In both scenarios, there will be a team already holding the Altar, fending off any invading teams. The first scenario means you've gained 'free' entry into the area where the Altar is. The second means you have to fight another team of 8 before being let through. The latter is worse by quite a lot, since you'll have less time to attempt an attack on the Altar, and you might loose some morale boost (even aquire death penalty!) if you're facing a good group (but you'll still have the chance to take out the enemy ghostly hero).

Again, teams tend to wait until around the 2min mark before making their moves on the Altar, and everything just goes completely insane. I've been there about 7-8 times and have never won once.

Once a team wins, a chest appears dropping all kinds of goodies, and will most of the time drop Celestial Sigils.

Let me know if I've done any mistakes in the order, I think this is correct. Also anything else that's wrong let me know.

[EDIT] Forgot to add one of the maps...

Waiting Lounge

This one comes right before Hall of Heroes, and is basically just your team waiting to enter the Halls. This usually happens if a battle has just started and you arrived too late in the cue.

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I say this because a skilled warrior knows how to use as little energy as possible and with a zealous anything, he shouldn't have any need for extra energy max.

to the best of my knowledge, being a 'skilled' warrior will not change the cost of any energy skills, meaning you most probably want all gladiators armor except the boots which should be knights boots... or if you use stonefists gloves add those in as well.

its irritating when someone (like you) decides to be all controversial on a post thats meant for _beginners_ so if you really think you have a valid case for the dragon armor, go post it somewhere else >.<

one thing i might add: in the map with the priest, as a beginner, you could probably completely ignore the fact that the priest exists, as long as you remember to kill theres before they res. in most cases, if you managed to defeat a team you usually have enough time to kill the priest before they res, or you could just wipe them out again (should be easier since theyre all dp'ed)

oh and ill add in the *real* names of those hoh maps

(in the same order)

Underworld
Burial Mounds
Broken Tower
Scarred Earth
Unholy Temples (relic run #1)
Dark Chambers (note the 8v8 with a priest is NOT courtyard... you messed that up)
Courtyard (8v8v8 with a priest and you have to capture the altar)
Unholy Temples (relic #2 with the door)
The Vault (waiting room for the HoH)
Hall of Heroes

to the best of my knowledge the chest drops 5 items, 3 of which are sigils and 2 of which are gold items. they are assigned to people randomely.

Kabale · Oct 12, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Ah thanks for that, couldn't remember all the names, I'll just remove the Courtyard thing

asdar · Oct 12, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Perfect additions, thank you very much.

I won't get too much into strategies in this thread because they get so complex and controversial. What one team thinks is the ONLY way another will think is weak because they have a counter.

Basice strategy is coordinate your offense and try to plan a broad based defense that will counter everything.

My own advice on that would be to put a couple extra skills to countering the most popular builds, currently IWAY I think, but not to load up for them to the exclusion of defense against a tried and true old style build.

If someone knows a good way to find groups as a newcomer without a guild that would be great. It seems to me that the first step is just to jump in and take whatever comes along until you're more comfortable or can get a guild. The problem with that is that you're going to get frustrated with losing and with the character of the people you meet.

Keep trying and ignore the people that insult their own team mates and all that.

Next section will be Guild vs. Guild and any advice for newcomers is welcome.

Kabale · Oct 12, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

The problem with that is that you're going to get frustrated with losing and with the character of the people you meet.

This is the problem I'm having with some of my PvE guildmates. They've tried PvP once or twice and have quickly become frustrated by it because of pretty much these 3 reasons:

1. Their build is designed for PvE, and they're not very keen on changing their skillbars to a PvP orientation
2. For the low level arenas, they have died quickly by those who have either more experience with PvP or those who have rushed ahead and packed their skillbar with high-level skills (&elites) and max armor.
3. The cussing and noob-calling in Tombs (and other places, to an extent).

My other advice for PvE characters is go as a heal or prot Monk. Their skill bar will only need to be tweaked slightly in order to be effective in arenas and possibly even Tombs, and are probably the most likely to gain PvP friends to play with in the future.

White Designs · Oct 12, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Pretty good stuff in general. I'll only fix a few points.

1. Res Sig is not a necessity. Understand the point that it is there to cover mistakes. The stronger your team is, the less you need and therefore have more skills. In Comp Arena always take one since you can expect the other three players to be very bad. But as you get into higher level PvP, you should have less and less sigs.

2. Dragon's Armor sucks. Gladiator's is easily the superior choice, its widely accepted. Not only is Dragon's a situational armor increase (Gladiator's is higher vs. Physical), the energy gain is a very big deal. No contest here.

3. Hall of Heroes can be anywhere between 2-5 teams, not just 3 or 5.

4. If you want to take your PvE character in and not change the skillsets, expect to lose miserably in GvG and rarely make it past UW in Tombs.

smurfhunter · Oct 12, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

my best advice for beginners (in pvp/tombs) is to STAY AWAY from american districts! i went there once and all i saw was some noobs typing all kinds of imature trash while some bot droned on about some weirdo site. otoh, after going there i went to the international districts, where the conversation sounded like einstein and bush having a serious talk about life, compared to what was going on in the american districts anyway.

and pleeease whatever you do try not to lie about your rank.. its horribly easy to check the rank 3 and 6 emotes, not to mention just about everyone who says their rank 5/2 are liers so you may want to avoid saying that even if you really are rank 5/2.

and one other thing... do NOT be stubborn about your skills. if you think the leader of your group is a nut and has no clue, leave the group. if you have a valid reason for not changing your build, like say you are uncomfortable with said skills or you dont have them unlocked... just say that instead of arguing yours are better. it saves alot of time that way.

and download TS from goteamspeak.com and vent from ventrilo.com, you can usually tell when a team (at least) has a clue if they use one of those...

make sure your mic does not sound like britney spears in the shower, and if it does try not to fix it by energetically holding down the talk key.. which reminds me be sure to set a push-to-talk key or we all get to listen to you breathing.

and try to have fun... its a game afterall ^^

asdar · Oct 12, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

That brings up a good point for newcomers. I'd save one character slot just for PvP.

I know the frustration of only having three and even more the frustration of a PvE character that has the same class repeated. I had a mo/me and an mes/ele. I didn't want to switch my monk so I started over.

I think it's worth it to plan out your PvE to cover all 6 classes but if you missed out you can switch secondaries in the desert so you just have to make sure that all three of your starting PvE characters have different primary classes.

Hmm, please ignore the two posts before mine. Neither adds a thing to a guide for new players.

Res sig is important in arenas period, US server versus EQ or Korean has no place in a beginner guide, Armor is your choice after you build whatever character you build. The strengths and weaknesses of armor are in many other threads.