Curse

Zeru · Oct 21, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Try taking your rof-less prot builds into upper tier gvg and you won't be able to stop a single spike. You have about .5-1 second, maybe 1.5s with less coordinated teams, to react and throw stuff on him.

Guardian is only there to follow warriors around. At 1s it is entirely unplayable versus spikes, as with shielding hands. Protective spirit is good but it will likely get shattered and is costly, especially vs ranger spike. Same with divine intervention (recharge is nasty too).= In the healing side you're stuck with infuse health, which is total garbage if you can't protect the guy doing it. If you can protect him by playing a movement based build and keeping him way back it's very nice against the shatter heavy spike teams.

Having just played negative zero's super strong spike yesterday, I needed prot spirit and rof more than once to save a target along with the same thing from our other prot monk. Nasty nasty stuff.

The OP's original build as no energy management besides a glyph (not really good). It's almost always better to put martyr or restore on a mesmer, ele, or necro and let monks take energy management elites. If you have to though, go /Me for channeling, drain enchant, and inspired hex. Channeling is stellar in tombs but pretty bad in gvg.

In tombs people either run ranger spike, iway, hex stacking, or trap/ViM builds. The latter 3 are attrition based. But really you need rof vs ranger spike, along with prot spirit or DI. .25s casts are crucial. Mend/martyr will devastate the latter, aegis works against all the scrub iways, and hex stacking is countered by several spot removals and 2-3 converts. Rof is not very friendly vs attrition buiilds but is an absolute must have vs any spike. You need to be equipped against all situations and rof is a must-have vs spikes. Considering the gvg metagame is running heavy defense with warrior assisted caster spikes, it's suicide to run a prot monk without it there.

Guardian of the Light · Oct 21, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Or use prot spirit and counter the other 3 that are about to hit too.

Lol thats a good point

knives · Oct 21, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

But really you need rof vs ranger spike, along with draw or prot spirit.

Rof won't stop 5x 22+ shots hit at you at once. Guardian would be a better choice. Prot spirit vs ranger spike = no. Rangers only do about 20-40 dmg per shot, but they do those shots doing seperate damage, instead of one big chunk of it, so prot spirit will be laughed at during a ranger spike. You say lingering + mortis? Guardian has a 2 second recharge, and if you have good monks on your team, then the lingering + rigor will be gone once noticed. I've gotten lingering + rigor tons of times in my skillbar from inspired hex, and usually a quick WoH or something along those lines works for ranger spike.

And btw: Using rof in another setting than tombs might work, but at the current stage of tombs, its not going to help one bit. RoFing someone while your attack dealers are blind/crippled/etc, and your casters are dazed, etc, is not a very good prot monk imo.

Signet of Humility · Oct 21, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishamael Sedai

I'm of the opinion that at least for now prot monks need a non elite condition removal. The reason for this is that duel trapper teams are often accompanied by 3 mesmers. Each mesmer is designed to get on an monk. The mesmer designed for the prot monk carries Signet of Humility. I know my guild runs the build & I've seen other good guilds/ and rank 6+ to 9+ teams run it. In fact I have been prot monking against one of these teams before & I could do practically nothing with restore condition since it was sig'd most of the game.

god damn i love that skill
aint i right sedai

and i didnt go with ur guild for a few times
and so dont know now what ur guild build is

smurfhunter · Oct 21, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

zeru does have a point, iq uses a glyph of renewal/shatter enchantment dude that totally owned my prot enchantments. like theyd do a spike (which really didnt do much damage for a spike but ill let it pass since we lost

) and id use prot spirit/shielding hands only to have them both shattered for another 200+ damage from shatter enchantment = dead.

rof is unlikely to get shattered since it will be taken off so quickly.

so, vs a shatter enchantment team, yes rof will help alot, and so will an infuser. against most builds (tombs especially, i dont know much about gvg) its mostly useless.

Zeru · Oct 21, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by knives

Rof won't stop 5x 22+ shots hit at you at once. Guardian would be a better choice. Prot spirit vs ranger spike = no. Rangers only do about 20-40 dmg per shot, but they do those shots doing seperate damage, instead of one big chunk of it, so prot spirit will be laughed at during a ranger spike. You say lingering + mortis? Guardian has a 2 second recharge, and if you have good monks on your team, then the lingering + rigor will be gone once noticed. I've gotten lingering + rigor tons of times in my skillbar from inspired hex, and usually a quick WoH or something along those lines works for ranger spike.

And btw: Using rof in another setting than tombs might work, but at the current stage of tombs, its not going to help one bit. RoFing someone while your attack dealers are blind/crippled/etc, and your casters are dazed, etc, is not a very good prot monk imo.

The only reason rof is good is because of the divine boon+divine favor bonus. The extra damage prevention is nice but you want to get in that healing as fast as possible. Prot spirit, rof, divine intervention, infuse health, and draw conditions are all .25s casts and hence the best tools to stop ANY spike.

You clearly have not played monk against top teams. You will never get off a guardian in time to save a guy unless it's vs a shatter heavy team in where it's a bad idea anyway. Case in point: we were playing a team today who ran 8 monks in some wierd smite spike. We were playing lax and did some really terrible spikes (about 1.5-2s) but they never healed it and we had no idea why. Later we saw they were trying to counter the spikes with orison and guardian, both of which were 1s casts and failed every single time because the target died too fast.

In gvg the shatter enchantment spikes are more common. Te was the first to do the glyph/shatter guy and it's spread pretty fast since it's so nice in spikes. This makes infuse health good for once, but you must must keep the guy safe by running defensive ward v foes and having him hang in the very deep ranks. Tonight we severely punished a team for running infuse health by faking spikes or unloading half of our spike and then fast switching.

In tombs, you need rof vs ranger spikes. Otherwise you're best off with good hex removal and a mend ailment for trap teams since besides ranger spike ppl run attrition based builds.

Xasew · Oct 21, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Or use prot spirit and counter the other 3 that are about to hit too.

-10 energy
-Easily shattered
-Reduces the dmg, doesn't counter it
-Has a 5 sec. recharge

Ofc Prot Spirit is better against lightning spikes, but that's not the issue now is it?

Ishamael Sedai · Oct 21, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

name a guild "shielding hands" and im joining

lol

I like the name Reversal of Fortune...

& I like the skill vs obsidian flame spike

but in normal circumstances it is just unpredictable

Look at this build

channeling/or drain enchant, insp hex, convert hex, aegis, guardian, prot spirit, restore condition {e}, shielding hands

It isn't that RoF isn't useful, and in some situations a lifesaver, but what do I put it in for. This is let alone if I need to bring a non elite condition removal. That cramps my bar even further. RoF can be used as a counter to lets say a ranger spike, but doesn't it really need to be combined with boon in order to have a chance at stopping a good spike.

White Designs · Oct 21, 2005, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishamael Sedai

Look at this build

channeling/or drain enchant, insp hex, convert hex, aegis, guardian, prot spirit, restore condition {e}, shielding hands

Sorry, but that's poor allocation of resources, assuming you're the only prot monk (you know, its not a bad idea to run two). Convert Hexes works at 0 protection, why cramp your prot? Stick it on any /mo caster or on a heal monk since they have more room to play around. Restore Condition works just fine at lower levels of protection, and is again nice on a non-monk primary. Aegis is another skill that works best at 9 protection, since any higher really isn't needed for non-bonders. Any number of these skills can easily be swapped onto another character to free slots.

Earendil · Oct 21, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishamael Sedai

lol

Look at this build

channeling/or drain enchant, insp hex, convert hex, aegis, guardian, prot spirit, restore condition {e}, shielding hands

I really like this setup, its very similar to what I'm playing. I'm using it on a Me/mo instead of a Mo/me though - Fast casting helps with everything (including convert hexes). I also use power drain. Sometimes I'd take mend ailment (if I'm the only condition monks) and RoF (for PS backup in spikes).

I hate the fact you cant get any damage on your PvP weapon on this setup.

The main idea in here is that, as a prot you have your job and you trust your healers to do theirs. Against elemental spikers - you spam ninja Prot spirit (RoF when PS is not loaded) and thats about all. Against conditions - spam restore (+mend). Against warrior teams: aegis and guardian. In my present team setup I'm not a dehexer (the healers are), though a fast cast convert can be a life saver.

Earendil

knives · Oct 21, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

The only reason rof is good is because of the divine boon+divine favor bonus. The extra damage prevention is nice but you want to get in that healing as fast as possible. Prot spirit, rof, divine intervention, infuse health, and draw conditions are all .25s casts and hence the best tools to stop ANY spike.

You clearly have not played monk against top teams.

I am not saying that guardian will make the target stay alive, but giving a +22 health to someone is not going to help with the current state of ranger spike. (I have played against Lara Valors team + The Power of my ranger). They don't run punishing as their elite anymore, and it is extremely hard to heal up someone (if you don't have a specific build for fast healing like an infuser or HH). Guardian can be used for a more general purpose, like if you don't run into ranger spike. And thats why I will take Guardian over RoF anytime. And I haven't GvGed in the longest time, so you may know about that area. =S

entropy · Oct 22, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Many people think that reversal is bad because it doesn't heal enough.Such as in the 22dmg kindle. Sure reversal isn't the best there but If you run divine boon its great. Along with the fact that reversal takes all the damage dealt so therefore its actually a 44 point heal in that sense. So even if you took 30 dmg it would techinically be like a 60 point heal. Which is pretty good.

Rey Lentless · Oct 22, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

You clearly have not played monk against top teams

Here's the obligatory statement in almost all iQ posts telling you how much better they are if you don't agree with them.

Divine intervention is better, and a lot of teams carry multiple instances of this. Against high damage spikes, prot spirit is going to protect you more than reversal.

You already pretty much said reversal's only good for the 1/4 sec cast. There are better 1/4 casts for a prot to bring already and if you're a boon prot.. then you certainly don't have room for extra skills like reversal.

Shatter enchant is a 1 sec cast, at best a .5 sec cast. If they're shattering your enchants after you place them in response to a spike, then that's a slow enough spike for the heal monks too.

White Designs · Oct 22, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Here's the obligatory statement in almost all iQ posts telling you how much better they are if you don't agree with them.

Divine intervention is better, and a lot of teams carry multiple instances of this. Against high damage spikes, prot spirit is going to protect you more than reversal.

You already pretty much said reversal's only good for the 1/4 sec cast. There are better 1/4 casts for a prot to bring already and if you're a boon prot.. then you certainly don't have room for extra skills like reversal.

Shatter enchant is a 1 sec cast, at best a .5 sec cast. If they're shattering your enchants after you place them in response to a spike, then that's a slow enough spike for the heal monks too.

Rofl, iQ's reputation is so funny.

Divine Intervention is not better. It's a 30 second recharge time. Solid teams can spike every 10-20 seconds, and you must be prepared. If you rely only on DI, you going to get rolled. Better 1/4 sec casts? Like what? Draw Conditions? Don't be ridiculous, its good for anti-spike but obviously nothing compared to Rof. Prot spirit? Try casting spirit in response to a spike and watch them kill the target anyways. When someone is getting spiked, he's already at low enough health that a reduction to 10% won't save anyone. Prot spirit works after the target gets the inital heal so that the second volley doesn't kill. The best chain is Rof+Prot Spirit+Draw+Rof, or a DI in replace of any of those if its available.

Ollj · Oct 22, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

divine intervention is a great skill for all kinds of monks.

Zeru · Oct 22, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Here's the obligatory statement in almost all iQ posts telling you how much better they are if you don't agree with them.

Divine intervention is better, and a lot of teams carry multiple instances of this. Against high damage spikes, prot spirit is going to protect you more than reversal.

You already pretty much said reversal's only good for the 1/4 sec cast. There are better 1/4 casts for a prot to bring already and if you're a boon prot.. then you certainly don't have room for extra skills like reversal.

Shatter enchant is a 1 sec cast, at best a .5 sec cast. If they're shattering your enchants after you place them in response to a spike, then that's a slow enough spike for the heal monks too.

I'd post the same thing if I wasn't in iQ. It's not like my attitude suddenly changed when I joined them really not all that long ago. If someone is going to insist on something that's dead wrong then they're going to be told bluntly that they are. This is a forum to teach people, and posting false information as the real thing is one of the worst things you can do here.

I'll expand on what I've been saying before. There are two types of spikes that you want to be worried about:
-Extremely fast high damage spikes. Most people use 1-2 warrior assisted ones, there are also teams like Negative zero who packs an 8 caster spike with just ridiculous front damage and followup damage. These, well executed, will kill in about a second or less. This includes ranger spikes.
-High damage but less burst. These use multiple shatter enchantments to punish prot monks while maintaining strong dps over 2-3 seconds in order to finish off the target even with him getting heals.

In all of these if you save the target in the first second you will still have to keep throwing heals in. A heal other could be of use here. The problem is that you only get one in though. Then what else to you use? Infuse is good if you can keep it's problems away and outright terrible if you can't. Healing monks really can't save themselves either. Heal touch, orison, all bleh. Healing is just good for efficiently clearing out small amounts of damage, which usually ends up being 2-3 skills from the monk class.

The first spike type has a very strong first wave and a weaker second wave shortly after. If I'm not using divine intervention, the first spell I cast will be rof or prot spirit depending on the type of spike. Second spell will be the other This combined with the stuff from our other two monks is almost always enough to save a target. Vs negative zero I would have to use 2 rofs to save a target along with a prot spirt. That's WITH roughly the same from the other monk.

Vs ranger spike and all caster spike you need to be able to heal yourself from spikes and really only rof, di and prot spirit can do that. Out of all of those, rof is the only one spammable. It's fast recharge, slight damage mitigation, and has the best casting time. No other skill comes close in it's utility vs spikes. In tombs, yeah, I'd drop it for an aegis since in tombs aegis becomes very good since you can't use tactical movement as much due to the bad maps. In gvg taking it out is simply stupid. You will be able to counter a 600 damage spike with regular stuff but you won't be able to counter ones that pack 800-1200 damage in more than one volley since you won't be able to be casting .25s spells as soon as you can.

As for DI, it's terrible if one person has it. If two or three have it the skill becomes quite effective, both as shatter 'chafe' for a prot spirit and for it's cast time/effect and 1 can be used for every spike.

My prot monk goes through lots of changes quite frequently for fine tuning but probably the last thing anyone would suggest is to take off the rof. It gives you so much utility in the current metagame that running a prot monk without it in gvg is insane.

Rey Lentless · Oct 22, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Divine Intervention is not better. It's a 30 second recharge time. Solid teams can spike every 10-20 seconds, and you must be prepared. If you rely only on DI, you going to get rolled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

As for DI, it's terrible if one person has it. If two or three have it the skill becomes quite effective, both as shatter 'chafe' for a prot spirit and for it's cast time/effect and 1 can be used for every spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Divine intervention is better, and a lot of teams carry multiple instances of this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I'd post the same thing if I wasn't in iQ. It's not like my attitude suddenly changed when I joined them really not all that long ago.

I don't doubt that you possessed this quality beforehand, and that's good.. since it's apparently a prereq to join iQ. Don't hide behind 'teaching', just call them a noob for disagreeing with you and get it over with, you aren't fooling anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

In tombs, yeah, I'd drop it for an aegis since in tombs aegis becomes very good since you can't use tactical movement as much due to the bad maps

If you're conceding that it's not adequate for tombs, that's good enough for me. Although I don't think the map differences in gvg make prot monking as different as you make it sound, I'm not going to pretend to know either.

entropy · Oct 23, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Multiple instances of divine intervention? Thats a waste of a spot. It helps but that 30 second recharge is killer. Why run multiple instances of that instead of RoF which is better? Sure DI is useful in some situations but carrying multiple ones causes more problems than it gains. Their would have to be a system to using DI as all 3 monks using DI is pointless. The coordination of recharge times would have to be managed as well.

Ristaron · Oct 23, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Less guild-smashing, more skill-bashing please. This isn't about who's right or wrong it's about when and where to use what skill.

Sister Rosette · Oct 23, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Apparently no one here has heard of the double echo RoF'er.

I use W as secondary for farming, and Me when actually partying.
3 slots with Reversal can keep a party alive almost indefinately.
Coupled with the energy management/stealing skills of the Mesmer,
it's a solid build.