Curse

NIB · Aug 12, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I suggest these skills:

1. Reversal of fortune
2. Signet of devotion
3. Guardian
4. Protective spirit
5. Martyr
6. Mend ailment
7. Inspired hex(or smite hex)
8. Channeling

This is a pretty good generic build. Of course, your build should always be decided according to what your team is using. If for example they use primal echoes, sig of dev is useless. Channeling doesnt need many points on inspiration to work. But if you alternative get energy drain instead of martyr(highly recommended if your team is using zephyr), you will need many points on inspiration(10 points). Or if your team is using fertile, then protective spirit is useless, etc.

And why do ppl always suggest aegis. I always considered this a noob skill, i dont know why ppl suggest it. Guardian is better. Aegis sucks cause it has extremely high cost. If you sit there, doing nothing for 5 hours, trying to gain energy, then chances are that someone will drain your energy before you even manage to use aegis. And why use aegis, since the enemy will aim only 1 person?

Kaylee Ann · Aug 12, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

And why use aegis, since the enemy will aim only 1 person?

This about sums up your credibility.

banishd · Aug 12, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

I
And why use aegis, since the enemy will aim only 1 person?

Sorry son, your arena build wont work in tombs.

JackOften · Aug 12, 2005, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Energy regeneration for monking is best done via tapping/draining, really. Offerings okay, but costs extra with Fertile - inspired Hex has a 20s recharge that doesn't change with QZ (exactly where you'll need more), plus relys on hexing to happen.

Drain Enchantment I can see, but that has a base cost of 10. And each pip of regen is 1/3 energy per second, so +4 over 10 seconds is 13 energy and some odd.

Aug 12, 2005, 09:13 AM // 09:13

4 initial pips +4 pips from EP/3*10--->8/3*10=~27

JackOften · Aug 12, 2005, 09:25 AM // 09:25

You have 4 initial pips anyway, so who cares about those?

NIB · Aug 12, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

My arena build? Lol, i won hoh 2 times in a row yesterday, while i was a protector(with a completely different build though, cause as i said, prot builds change depending on what your team is using). And yes, enemies will attack 1 target, except distruptors/energy drainers and other supporting chars, who will be on a different target or 2 different targets, on/off. But usually, dmg dealers will concetrate on 1 target at a time.

Try using aegis under qz. You will need to wait a pretty good time to gather that energy, which means that you are more vulnerable to energy draining. Guardian is more spammable than aegis and it is less affected by NR(cause of the short duration/cost which make it more spammable). Also, the more times you cast a spell, the more advantage you take of the divine favor healing bonus. If i cast 3 guardians, then i heal 120ish hp. If i cast 1 aegis, i heal for nothing(only heal myself, which 90% of the time is useless). See the big difference? And i dont even have to mention the 30secs recharge that aegis has. With guardian, i can keep guardian on even 2 ppl at all times which makes insane difference when you are against archers or even warriors.

Aug 12, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackOften

You have 4 initial pips anyway, so who cares about those?

because if you dont add them your numbers are off for energy regen

Scaphism · Aug 12, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

What did I say about playing nice on the boards? I meant it.

As for Aegis vs Guardian:
You don't use them the same way. Or at least, you shouldn't.
Guardian is a reactive, spammy spell, like Orison and ROF. Something you start chain casting when you see someone is coming under focused attack.

Normally it's a good spell, and I'd play it often if I had a high protection attribute. Under NR however, the 1s cast time becomes a 2s cast time, and guardian becomes trash next to ROF. 2s is unacceptable when someone is coming under heavy attack- they needed protection 2 seconds ago, not 2 seconds from now. If you've been playing with Signet of Devotion you'll know the frustration of a slow casting heal.

Use Aegis like a fire and forget. Wait a few seconds after you've engaged with the enemy and then cast it. You'll slow down their adrenal gain and if they're using a Quickshot or other ranger strategy they'll start burning energy reserves. It slows down the pace of their entire offense. Most non-elementalsit teams spread out their damage, occasionally teaming up on one target to spike it out. Aegis will help keep everyone protected. If you've played monk for a long time you know everyone takes some damage as a fight wears down, forcing you to triage and choose which targets need healing the most. Against good teams the strain will become too much and your energy wont be able to sustain your healing. Aegis gives you a reprieve from that strain- it lessens the overall damage your team takes.

It can be used for spot duty, like guardian, but you're right, the energy cost is heavy if that's how you're trying to use it. The key is the pressure it takes off of you and the other monks.

If you're the only monk on your team, and you're trying to use Aegis to keep people up, you're in trouble. But that has as much, or more to do with your team makeup than choosing Aegis does.

Finally, there are a few other advantages to Aegis. Good teams will switch targets when one gets heavy protection- Aegis beats target switching in a way Guardian never will. It also saves you casting time as long as at least two targets are being attacked- you don't have the time to cast two guardians very often or know where they need to be cast. Aegis has you covered. It's also a good chaff enchantment, covering other, important ones, although that's not as important in an NR-dominated metagame. And last, in tombs you'll often get sandwiched between two or one and a half teams. In those situations more than half your team getting attacked, and guardian really can't cope there. Tombs is a unique environment where every skill on your bar has to carry its weight through a lot of different maps- Aegis functions well throughout Tombs, it just requires good energy management.

NIB · Aug 12, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Guardian offers protection for 5(6secs with henge sword and pommel of enchanting). That time is enough to spam rof, some other spell(or 2), rof and then recast guardian before the previous guardian expires. Sure, the 2sec casting time hurts, but a prot doesnt have that many skills to use. And it doesnt matter if the enemy changes target, guardian lasts only 5 secs and you can recast it again. So it can counter target switching pretty good.

Lately, more and more teams use wa/r and spread dmg(its the new hot build supposingly), but personally, i only saw 3 teams so far in like 10 hours of playing tombs(and my team was 1 of those 3). If more teams start using this build, then yes aegis would be the skill to use.

1 more problem that i have, is that there are many energy draining enemies. For them, there is no way in the world to let you get to 15+ energy to cast aegis. So if i am against a team that has good energy denial players, then i will almost never use aegis.

And without qz, aegis sucks big time cause of the 30sec recharge. But then again, we go back to the beggining, which i said that protector builds can differ extremely, depending on what your team(and your enemies) use. Only standard skill is reversal :P.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 12, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

My arena build? Lol, i won hoh 2 times in a row yesterday,

Considering this is on par somewhere near being able to tie your own shoes, we will move on. Not to mention, it is not possible to plan for every single thing you will ever see in tombs, so bringing this up only throws this entire discussion out the window. I have won without a prot monk, with 4 henchies, using 8 pets, and all sorts of crazy builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

But usually, dmg dealers will concetrate on 1 target at a time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

And it doesnt matter if the enemy changes target, guardian lasts only 5 secs and you can recast it again. So it can counter target switching pretty good.

This is an extremely simple concept. You are right, most teams are still stuck on the tab button and single targetting people. Unfortunately, this is not the case against a good team. Besides the obvious reasons of why to use the broken e/mo smiter (unlimited energy, great survivability, sustained dps), it is also used to spread out the damage over multiple targets. It is basically the lazy way of spreading damage everywhere. The same can be done with multiple warriors in a group. You can spread them over several targets harassing and building adrenaline, until that grand moment when they all converge on a target, along with the rest of the dps of the team, and dump everything on him. You may think 1 second is not that long, but to a soft target getting adrenaline spiked along with the rest of a team supporting them, 1 second is a life time. This is especially shown under a NR environment where guard takes 2 seconds to cast, 2 seconds too long. The only way to help prevent cases like these is to use aegis to help slow down adrenaline building, and to provide mass coverage protection for the entire group. Also, there are many cases where groups over-extend several individuals. Aegis once again shines here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

Try using aegis under qz.

I have, I do, and I love it. It just allows me to spam it even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

You will need to wait a pretty good time to gather that energy, which means that you are more vulnerable to energy draining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

1 more problem that i have, is that there are many energy draining enemies. For them, there is no way in the world to let you get to 15+ energy to cast aegis.

This sounds like an energy management problem more then an argument against aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

Guardian is more spammable than aegis and it is less affected by NR(cause of the short duration/cost which make it more spammable).

Considering guard takes 2 seconds of casting for 5 seconds worth of protection under NR, I think NR screws guard more. And like I stated before, casting for 2 seconds on a target that is getting spiked is entirely way too long. I like guard, it is a decent spell when you are running a high prot build, but under NR it is complete garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

If i cast 1 aegis, i heal for nothing(only heal myself, which 90% of the time is useless).

While Aegis is up though, the need to heal damage is decreased drastically, putting less of a strain on your healers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

And i dont even have to mention the 30secs recharge that aegis has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

And without qz, aegis sucks big time cause of the 30sec recharge.

Run multiple copies of it?

cookiehoarder · Aug 12, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I like Aegis with and without QZ. One thing I wouldn't suggest is running two copies, however that is just my opinion

Scaphism · Aug 12, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

I'd like to reiterate that I don't like maxing out protection. Guardian is one of the few spells that continues to benefit from every level of your protection attribute, but I'm quite happy around 9 or 10 in protection.

If I had a few other reasons to put my protection around 12-14 I'd probably find more reasons to play guardian. As it stands, guardian is the only reason I'd currently have for boosting my protection attriute. Maybe I just have a bugaboo about slow casting spells, but as a monk if something takes me 2 seconds to cast that's a LONG time. It needs to be a powerful effect for me to consider spending 2 seconds on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

That time is enough to spam rof, some other spell(or 2), rof and then recast guardian before the previous guardian expires. Sure, the 2sec casting time hurts, but a prot doesnt have that many skills to use.

My bar is ALWAYS full, and everything on it has to fight for its spot. However, how many spammables do you need?
I feel that condition removal is mandatory on any protection monk. That's one spammable right there. ROF is #1 for most prot monks, and the cast time (1/4) doesn't get hosed by NR. In fact, the cast time of ROF under NR is still less than an Orison. ROF functions very differently than Guardian as well- it continues to heal a target with every recast. If you're spamming guardian over and over on the same target they're only benefitting from the Divine Favor bonus. Basically, if they continue to sustain heavy damage, even with guardian up, then recasting Guardian will not save them. ROF, on the other hand, can turn a huge spike into your advantage (and can do it even with only 10 in protection).

If I'm bringing a third spammable heal on my protection monk, it's usually between Signet of Devotion and Guardian. As sad as it is to say, Signet of Devotion is energy management. It's poor energy management, but it's serviceable and in a line you're likely to have a high attribute in anyways.

That's 3 spam heals, and I can chain them back to back to back. If you have a convincing argument for why one of those should be replaced by Guardian(especially under NR), please let me know. Aegis fills a different slot on my bar.

Acan Vishnu · Aug 12, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Scaph, what do you usually run as your elite as a protection monk? I wouldn't think that you'd put your elite in a attribute line that you only run at 8-10, but I suppose I could be wrong. Martyr is really nice, but I've never been so sure about putting in on your primary protection monk.

I tend to lean towards Shield of Regeneration as my personal choice, I find it to be quite good vs. spike damage and its got the added bonus that even if your enemies stop hitting whoever you put it on it'll keep healing them. But yet again, you have to worry about NR when your using it.

Scaphism · Aug 12, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Unless it calls for something else, energy drain. You need some way to keep going.

Ensign · Aug 12, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I used to be pretty cool on Aegis but I'm constantly being surprised by just how effective it is. Good spike teams don't just sit on one target - they hit a target, wait for the buffs to get stacked on, and then either rend him (rarely), or quickly switch to another target. Warrior teams don't always focus fire a single target, many Warriors branch out onto different targets for added disruption. Aegis is a solid, proactive counter to all Warrior and Ranger based strategies. Guardian? That needs to be used reactively on a focused target. Aegis is just a big fat "off" button on their offense for 10+ seconds. No target switching, no spikes, either power through on a single target with removal, or just sit there helplessly while your offense is neutered.

The costs are significant - 15 energy is non-trivial and you can fight it with energy debilitation - but the effect is really powerful and well worth the cost against the right team.

Peace,
-CxE

The Man · Aug 12, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

Besides the obvious reasons of why to use the broken e/mo smiter (unlimited energy, great survivability, sustained dps)

I hope you are being sarcastic, because E/Mo smiters are incredibly east to shut down. Diversion=gg

Kaylee Ann · Aug 12, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man

I hope you are being sarcastic, because E/Mo smiters are incredibly east to shut down. Diversion=gg

I can easily shut down your monks on my mesmer, does that mean you shouldn't use them too?

zehly · Aug 12, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

These are great suggestions. Aegis sounds pretty good -- even Lina can attest to that! And energy drain sounds like a good idea too. Plus I know I always fear when I see an Mo/Me in tombs, because it means they probably got an ace in their sleave ready to mess something up.

So what you guys are saying is that a protection monk is still necessary in tombs, even with things like NR, and that other highly-spammed spirits can even be beneficial to me?

At least I know people don't say "you didn't protect me!" as much as "wtf, why didn't you heal me!"

Thanks again for all your comments. I'll look through what you said again and when I get a good build, I'll post it for critique!

NIB · Aug 13, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I know how to use energy drain, channeling even insp hex/drain enchantment to gain energy on energy draining situations.

Quote:

While Aegis is up though, the need to heal damage is decreased drastically, putting less of a strain on your healers.

So is with guardian.

Quote:

My bar is ALWAYS full, and everything on it has to fight for its spot. However, how many spammables do you need?
I feel that condition removal is mandatory on any protection monk. That's one spammable right there.

Mend ailment isnt always spammable. It depends on the enemy. Many teams dont even use conditions and most of the time you dont need to spam mend ailment. So you have rof as spammable. What else do you cast after rof? You dont have any other spammable skill.

Guardian might take 2 secs to cast, but it is pretty spammable. I am not casting guardian over and over again. You can cast guardian, rof, non spammable skill(like energy drain or whatever), rof, guardian(full circle). This way, you can keep guardian on your ally at all times, without wasting any energy. If i dont have guardian, what am i supposed to do? Rof, rof, rof? And ok, i can bring sig of dev. But what if my team is running primal echoes?

And as a monk, i always liked having many low cost skills so that i can cast more of them and take advantage of divine favor healing bonus. For example, during a 3min battle i can cast almost 30 guardians. Thats 1000hp worth of healing. And as long as the enemy concetrates on 1 target, guardian is much better than aegis, despite its casting time.

Quote:

just dont call Aegis a "noob" spell, when your showing off how you won hoh twice.

Showing off? Someone flamed me and i replied that i have actually played tombs.

Anyway, i admit that i misjudged aegis and that it has many uses. But the only way that it can work, is if you have energy drain/offering(otherwise getting 15 energy is almost impossible, even with channeling or other energy management skills). And guardian is more efficient vs enemies that concetrate fire.

PS I have a henge sword with 19% enchanting pommel, so my guardian lasts 6secs.
PS2 Energy drain is a nice elite for monks(almost a must nowdays with all these energy denial/qz).