Curse

Ensign · Nov 08, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

BiP has more raw power than any skill in the game, and it isn't even close. It's also one of the most demanding and unwieldly skills available, and only the most specialized of builds can really make use of it.

What do I mean by that? BiP is an energy elite, so you can compare it to other energy elites based upon how much energy it gives you. At 13 Blood a BiP is worth 6 pips of regen, and with an enchanting part it will last 12 seconds. That's 24 energy for 5 energy inventment. But 33% health is around 7 energy worth of healing for most characters, so realistically you're netting 12 energy per cast of BiP. Just on that metric alone you need to be casting around 5 BiPs per minute to be getting enough out of the skill to justify the investment, and realistically, because you're spending time across multiple characters to deal with the health sacrifice, you want to be getting off 7-8 BiPs per minute to make the skill worthwhile.

Now think about what sorts of builds can actually pull that off effectively. First off you need a character who's going to be casting at least eight BiPs per minute. That's half of a Necro's natural regen, so that guy is going to need a lot of energy management of his own if he's going to be anything other than a BiP-bot. That guy is also going to be dealing over one thousand damage to himself every minute, so you're going to need a lot of healing thrown his way - you should have the energy for that from the BiPs, but the time needed to deliver that healing is non-trivial. After you have that in order comes the tricky part - designing a build that can make use of 8+ BiPs per minute. Energy might be tight on your Monks, sure, but do they need, or can they even make proper use of, being under a constant Blood is Power? Maybe your Monks only need 2 BiPs per minute to go infinite on energy - so do you also have an offense that can also make use of a steady diet of BiPs?

Then, after you've designed a build that can make effective use of all of those BiPs, does that build still function effectively if BiP is somehow neutralized? How is this better than just spreading energy management out amongst all of your characters, instead of making energy a single-point-of-failure problem?

That's if you want to really make use of the skill. Sure, you can use BiP as a backup plan to hit your Monks with if things go wrong, but spending an elite on something that's going to be used as a failsafe seems like an awfully high investment to make.

Now for backup plans, Blood Ritual is a skill that I gain more respect for every day, and I think that the skill is flat out *better* than the BiP based solutions. The main reason for this is the much lower investment, and how much stronger that Necromancer can be because of it. For example, instead of making a BiP Blood Necro that wants to throw BiP around a ton to justify spending his elite on it, take a Blood Necro with high specced Offering of Blood, and Blood Ritual in his 7th or 8th slots. With an high specced Offering, that guy's energy is going to absolutely fly, and if your team comes into an energy crunch he can peel off 2-3 Blood Rituals without feeling any effects - indeed, he could cast half a dozen Blood Rituals and still have better energy than a guy who casts a single BiP. Perhaps more importantly, since Blood Ritual is just one of seven skills you're perfectly happy to only use the skill in a crunch. Compare it to the various Res skills - spending a skill slot on a Res is a great use of a slot as a backup plan, but would you really want to use an elite slot on an elite res, no matter how much better that elite res happened to be?

The drawbacks of Blood Ritual over BiP aren't all that significant if you plan around 'em. Touch range is generally not a big deal, since your Necro should be in the back lines near the Monks anyway. The casting time, and potential time spent moving into position, is negligible with a bit of planning. Blood Ritual, like BiP, is not a skill that magically fixes bad energy - it's something that keeps your energy from getting bad in the first place. If you're calling for BiPs when your energy hits 0 you're going to be in bad shape either way. But if you're calling for BiPs when you hit 10-15 energy with things getting worse, the added regen should keep you from ever getting into that danger zone where you need to be living off of regen. It should be clear that if you're calling for BiPs when trouble is on the horizon, not when it's already there, the two second cast time of Blood Ritual is not going to matter as it'll arrive in plenty of time. The added energy cost is of course negligible because the Necro's energy is going to be a whole lot better with an Offering in place of the BiP.

The vast, vast majority of builds that are using BiP would be better off with the Offering of Blood / Blood Ritual combo. Both are very strong skills that let you flexibly deliver energy to where it's needed and should be underestimated at your own risk, but the latter is simply a stronger, more flexible choice for all but the most dedicated builds.

Peace,
-CxE

master_ranger_matt · Nov 08, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

i had an idiot once who ketp using BiP on me, and im a ranger. BiP is the bomb for minion factories.

Lasareth · Nov 08, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

As a monk, I heart all the energy regen I can get, especially when we encounter clumps of enemies at once.

So, get a good energy regen spell like BiP and your healers will love you ^^b

Mort · Nov 08, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

I personally prefer well of power and BR, since well is aoe regen and health regen. Most people, if they're not newbcakes, should have some energy management anyways

.

In pvp blood ritual is decent, but the instant you start using bip you get a)targeted and b)dead

I agree.

Lasher Dragon · Nov 08, 2005, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The drawbacks of Blood Ritual over BiP aren't all that significant if you plan around 'em. Touch range is generally not a big deal, since your Necro should be in the back lines near the Monks anyway. The casting time, and potential time spent moving into position, is negligible with a bit of planning. Blood Ritual, like BiP, is not a skill that magically fixes bad energy - it's something that keeps your energy from getting bad in the first place. If you're calling for BiPs when your energy hits 0 you're going to be in bad shape either way. But if you're calling for BiPs when you hit 10-15 energy with things getting worse, the added regen should keep you from ever getting into that danger zone where you need to be living off of regen. It should be clear that if you're calling for BiPs when trouble is on the horizon, not when it's already there, the two second cast time of Blood Ritual is not going to matter as it'll arrive in plenty of time. The added energy cost is of course negligible because the Necro's energy is going to be a whole lot better with an Offering in place of the BiP.

The vast, vast majority of builds that are using BiP would be better off with the Offering of Blood / Blood Ritual combo. Both are very strong skills that let you flexibly deliver energy to where it's needed and should be underestimated at your own risk, but the latter is simply a stronger, more flexible choice for all but the most dedicated builds.

Peace,
-CxE

As usual, Ensign, you are a breath of fresh logic. Luckily for me, seems you are on "my side" of the debate this time

You have succinctly summed up all the points I wish I could have made.... thanks!

legandry · Nov 08, 2005, 03:56 AM // 03:56

NOTE: this is for PvE only

Ensign, this is just about the first post I have seen you make that I disagree with. BiP can easily be maintained on 2-3 people by a good necro. The key is to tell your monks NOT to heal you.

I use three spells:
Blood is Power
Well of Blood
Blood Renewal

Other spells are rarely used... sometimes I will go into curses for shadow of fear, mark of pain, etc., but they do not get used that often.

Renewal gives me +6 pips and 200 hp every 10 secs (total of 320hp). BiP costs somewhere in the mid-100s range (less if I take 2 sup runes). Every 10 seconds I can cast 2-3 BiPs, and I compleatly heal myself. I have no energy problems, even without the benefit of soul reaping.

To each his own

Kyle · Nov 08, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

BiP is nice. Me being a monk i usualy tell him not to cast it on me. I can manage my 51 energy so i dont have a problem. Lets other people get more energy. I had this necro in my FoW group the other day. While we were fighting he was sacing health left and right then barbed sig and vamp gazed himself to full hp then repeated. I got so scared cuz he saced his health to like 20 or so. And i was waiting for that stray arrow to dink him and watch him fall flat. And sure enough it happend. Only time it did. So i watched him and see how close he got to aggro. if he did i threw a RoF on him and solved problem.

I have never used the skill but i like it for my ele.

Ensign · Nov 08, 2005, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by legandry

Ensign, this is just about the first post I have seen you make that I disagree with. BiP can easily be maintained on 2-3 people by a good necro. The key is to tell your monks NOT to heal you.

Hey, I never said that you couldn't make a good BiP turret. Several months ago we made a build that used a BiP turret that kept the entire team under permanent BiP - casting in the neighborhood of 30 BiPs per minute. It's just a ridiculous source of energy if you dedicate a character to it.

My point was that if you're going to include a dedicated bipper you need to plan for it. You can't just stick a BiP turret into a typical pickup group and expect that to do a lot. Most Monks aren't built to really take advantage of being under constant BiP, you know? You feed a decent, generic Monk build one, maybe two BiPs per minute and he'll go infinite. How much offense really needs BiPs? The problem isn't making a BiP turret, it's making a team that can really benefit from a BiP turret - and, ideally, will not fall apart horribly if the BiP turret dies. Again, it's perfectly possible to make a team that wants a BiP turret, we've done it in the past, and clearly you have a team build that benefits from it as well. There's nothing wrong with them and they're potentially a lot of fun.

But most teams do not want a BiP turret. The characters can't absorb all the extra energy, so your BiP turret isn't doing nearly as much as a more rounded character. Can your team use a BiP turret? Great. Run one and abuse the hell out of it, I'm sure it'd be even better in PvE than PvP. Do you just want a kick here and there for when things get tough? Then leave the BiP turret behind and bring a guy with Blood Ritual in their 8th slot. It's that simple.

Peace,
-CxE

Rey Lentless · Nov 08, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

I'm pretty sure he was referring to BIP being asked for in a PVE setting. I don't think the FOW mobs are going out of their way to deny BIP. It's much better than blood ritual because you can plan around it, put all of your eggs in one basket and know nothing's going to counter you.

BIP in PVP? Most of the time I would say no, and he touched on why. You have to make a build that uses it's power.. at the same time adjusting to it being shut down by humility, diversion, etc. BIP's extreme potential makes it a bad skill most of the time ironically.

I used to run several different builds where BIP was a big part of the build, and I just didn't like them. Too frail and too dependent.

kg_lildude1 · Nov 08, 2005, 08:31 AM // 08:31

i find BiP the most useful if i use it on my w/n

why?

because i can spam it even if i have a huge amount of health.

how?

Cast BiP, then Heal Sig for 169 hp.

i can just spam it and give the caster non stop 9 energy regen pips

and people say warriors are useless

Scaphism · Nov 08, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

To bring a few points together:
In general, you have to look at what Ensign says and assume it's directed at PvP, unless stated otherwise.
Next, as Rey hinted at, if you rely on BiP too much, good teams will punish you for using it as a crutch.

Taking legendary's three skills for example: (BiP, Blood Renewal, Well of Blood)
In GvG you can rule out Well of Blood- you can't count on a dead target, let alone having it die anywhere useful to you. Tombs is a bit different.
As for Blood Renewal, be careful when using it. If you chain BiP then BR you've sacrificed over half your total health. A good team will see that and jump all over you, just like they do when an Infuse Health healer has just given up half his life. At least the infuser usually follows up with Healing Touch on himself, but you're stuck waiting around on regen that is enchantment based arrives slowly over the next 12 seconds (you are using a +20% enchantment piece if you are using BiP). Any competent team is capable of taking down a target at half health, a situation you will find yourself in regularly.

Lastly, watch out for shatter enchantment. at best it triggers the "regain X health when BR ends" clause, mostly mitigating the damage you took, but it wont help you at all if shatter kills you (easier than you may wish to believe).

Spura · Nov 11, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I think this is discussion about pve. So bip can be great if you can spam it from outside the aggro range on your casters, without getting healed.

jesh · Nov 12, 2005, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Lastly, watch out for shatter enchantment. at best it triggers the "regain X health when BR ends" clause, mostly mitigating the damage you took, but it wont help you at all if shatter kills you (easier than you may wish to believe).

The health doesn't neccessarily come back after an X amount of time on blood renewal. It's when the enchant ends, whether it be from the timer, or from someone using shatter/strip/etc.

Morganas · Nov 12, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I've noticed something really weird with blood renewal. Say you're using the pvp blood staff with 20% chance fast recharge. If you recast br before the last one ends, it'll overwrite it without triggering the healing, BUT you'll still get the regain health after 10 seconds, for both the first cast and second cast.

It seems that it heals 10 second from every cast so long as br is currently on you. Anyone who's had more experience with this skill wanna describe what actually happens when it's stripped?

jesh · Nov 12, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Hm that's interesting, though it makes sense. I guess if it doesn't end, then it just goes off after the alotted amount of time. I wasn't aware of that.

Hella Good · Nov 12, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Bip can help in the thick of things, Br is a constant engagement. Since I don't like running around a Br-ing all the time (gets kinda boOoring), I do Bip.

For Fow my build is blood/curses/reaping. Use 1 sup blood, 1 major curse (thinking of switching to sup) and 1 minor reaping runes.

Att:
Blood: 16
Curses: 12
Reaping: 9
Inspiration: 2

Skills
1- Enfeebling Blood
2- Parasitic Bond
3- Life Syphon
4- Vamp Gaze
5- Well of Blood
6- Inspired Hex
7- BiP
8- Res Sig

You open up with EB on the melee or rangers (esp. those nasty Bar shadow rangers), spam the bonds, syphons if needed. Gaze is only for a last resourt quick hp-gain kinda thing or to finishing up low hp targets. Well of Blood is when casters get rushed in by melee mostly (kill one fast, make a well). Inspa hex (xD) is for stealing Spites and Life Transfer (I've gotten pretty good at it). And then after u unload your fury you can start spamming BiPs and just rely on the gain from the parasitic bonds and syphon to heal up (if timed well, it works great).

JR · Nov 23, 2005, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I think this is discussion about pve. So bip can be great if you can spam it from outside the aggro range on your casters, without getting healed.

You can get away with just about ANYTHING in PvE.

As for BiP in PvP, I would have to agree with Ensign. It's a very nice skill, but a waste of an elite. The only way to make proper use of it, is to design a build around it, and a build designed with one skill as the pivot is a bad build.