Curse

Racthoh · Nov 15, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Deep Freeze, Meteor Shower, Mark of Pain and just for fun Spiteful Spirit. Now just time the Meteor Shower to knock the enemies as the Deep Freeze hits and go crazy with the Mark of Pain. Flurry, Hundred Blades, Tiger's Fury, Dual Shot... whoa, where did that mob go?

8 skills out of a possible 64 that could handily destroy many mobs. However we need to keep the tank alive and you have 56 more spots to fill. Oh wait, Blessed Aura on two monks with some % of enchanting mods, Spellbreaker and Mark of Protection before he goes in. There, you win. Consider it like PvP, you're making a 64 skill build, not 8 different 8 skill builds. You are a team in every context, don't try to act like an individual. It's amazing what a well balanced group can achieve it theory.

Prehaps that's a bit much, but you aren't going to be the best tank unless you communicate with your team. Discuss a deadly combination that simply can't be beat in almost every circumstance. I can tell you 100% of the time that my 64 skill team tank will beat your 8 skill tank.

Battle Torn · Nov 16, 2005, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Its a misconception to believe that you cant do damage if you take 2 skill slots up with sprint and rez and as I stated before I do just fine with this most of the time I take em and any tank build worth their salts can use intelligent use of their skills to deal damage rather than cramming their skill bar full of damage skills. There cant really be any argument to whether or not they are useful in Fow or UW because Im talking from experience and support the group in a much more critical way than high damage can. I can do damage just fine in a heavily protective build (Berserker stance, Garlath slash, Final thrust, Sprint, Def stance, Rez, Mark and Mending-or other enchantment) but need to survive long enough to do that damage. I also take mending as a preferred enchantment for the added health and damage reduction I have with my shield and I use a zealous weapon so never run out of energy and because final thrust drains adrenalin I use a different stance other than bonettis. I take mark with me and is usually the first skill I use followed by berserker and just watch the enemy go down after 2 quick garlath and 2 final thrust skills in a row - due to the added adrenalin boost and the team attacking- without taking much damage at all going into a stance once mark ends which has saved my life more than a few times. I use these skills regardless of how good the monk is because the most important thing is to be the one taking damage and you can only do that if you still alive. It is sound build and nothing you say will change that but you are entitled to your opinion. I dont know any group in FoW or UW that need a hero in the team doing massive damage...In fact you seem to agree with me that its team work and there is no better way to contribute as a tank than taking agro and letting the real damage dealer classes get on with it. I was in UW last night and the team were very complementary for my tanking skills because of my survivability and ability to hold the enemy away from them (I was taking damage from 3 enemies at once which as anyone can tell you usually means death and held them of course with the monks help but also my own). It is a fact that you will survie longer if you take defensive skills than attacking…FACT… and Ive been in so many groups where the warriors…mmmm…seems to be dying a lot… wonder why that is? ..then whisper me…’due what skills u using?’. Garlath and Final thrust are good enough offensive skills for any defensive tank build and with berserker you can get the adrenalin back very quickly after the first time you used em and is excellent for finishing the enemy off. Incidentally we got ambushed at one point in UW and everyone died rather quickly...except me because ‘I am experienced btw’ I understood immediatley what was happening and ensured the party survival by having the skills to run and rez...I didnt run at the first sign of trouble, but I cast mark on the surviving monk who was taking agro and he died anyway and I was alone. I dont think anyone on that party was telling me sprint and rez was a waste of 2 skill slots and as I said earlier I do usually get positive comments on my tanking and Im sorry but there is nothing a high damage build could have done in that situation to help when you have 6 enemies in UW attacking….absolutly nothing…”Warrior lfp party for UW” comes to mind shortly after. Also the monk who was recruiting in the group was asking me to take more offensive skills (I said I would but I didn’t) which I thought was interesting because of our discussion in this forum. I will say this...tanking and damage dealing in my opinion are not the same. Tanking is someone who can take punishment and survive not someone who can deal massive damage but rely more heavily on how good the monk is. Surely the word ‘tank’ was coined from…a Tank and that’s probably as heavily defended as you can get, ever heard the expression ‘built like a tank’…I haven’t heard anyone saying…’he can fight like a tank’ even though a tank has a big gun. Thats my opinion but Im sure you have had just as much similar success with your build in different situations. You seem to be increasingly insulting with your comments and you don’t seem to understand that others ‘might have a good point’. Im here for a discussion not to get involved in an argument but facts are facts. If this was a thread discussing high damage builds and I came on claiming my W/Mo build was better for dealing damage I would expect to be proven wrong… lets pull another imaginary situation out of our hats to support our build and not concentrate on the facts.

Also I said it before and Ill say it again "A true warrior knows when to fight and when to run".

Quote:

I think it's absurd for someone to tell me, a nuclear tank, that I can't take hits or defend well when my skill combo allows me to survive FAR longer than no W/Mo ever will...

ILMAO... hehe...heheheheheheheheh!...oh sorry there got a little carried away...

striderkaaru · Nov 16, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

battle, i think you're getting a bit carried away. i realize that you are speaking from personal experience, but please don't make assumptions on any of the other sub-classes until you have taken an in-depth look at them.

you have admitted that there is a difference between a mainly offensive warrior and a tank. the build you mentioned is certainly balanced, but hardly a tanking build. def stance lets you tank for a few sec, but leaves you with nothing for the other 35+ sec. and no matter what you think, mending does not make you a tank. it is a good all around build and it certainly works for you, but i don't think you should be advertising yourself as a tank.

like i said, it's just semantics that gets to me. an offensive or balanced warrior should advertise himself as such, not as a "tank."

sprinting away from danger and ressing the rest of the party was a smart move on your part. it definitely saved your trip from being sent back to toa. but think about it. running away is not "tanking." tanking is sitting and soaking damage. running away, no matter how smart it is, is still not tanking.

Battle Torn · Nov 16, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

My stance and prot skill last 10 and 9 seconds consecutively and used with the buffs and healing from the group is sufficient. its more like just a few seconds un protected when you time them with the monk and the damage your taking.

I think you are of the opinion a tank is not purely in the build but in the actions as well..... I do agree here but that doesnt meant you cant run from a battle your team has lost in case of being un-tank like... Its commendable that you build reflects your belief in what a tank build means to you and how you play that build as well. For me though I would rather have a little dented pride and run if it meant saving the group. I think if you did stay and die in FoW or UW 'being tank-ish' then whoosh ToA city for the group and thats no good in any situation. As you said being a tank is about sitting soaking damage - and this is totally true so THANK YOU and is what Ive been saying all along and maintain why having protective skills I feel is the key to tanking - and not damage skills. I have been playing with not taking sprint since the update cos the enemies dont follow you as much, but Ill see how that goes and yes it would be good to have that skill slot free

I can see your passionate about this subject and I have enjoyed this discussion, but your right about getting carried away. I dont think we will win each other over, but then again we dont have to...maybe we would be glad of the diversity the other would bring if we ever found ourselves in the same team.

Have fun playing

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 16, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Deep Freeze, Meteor Shower, Mark of Pain and just for fun Spiteful Spirit. Now just time the Meteor Shower to knock the enemies as the Deep Freeze hits and go crazy with the Mark of Pain. Flurry, Hundred Blades, Tiger's Fury, Dual Shot... whoa, where did that mob go?

8 skills out of a possible 64 that could handily destroy many mobs. However we need to keep the tank alive and you have 56 more spots to fill. Oh wait, Blessed Aura on two monks with some % of enchanting mods, Spellbreaker and Mark of Protection before he goes in. There, you win. Consider it like PvP, you're making a 64 skill build, not 8 different 8 skill builds. You are a team in every context, don't try to act like an individual. It's amazing what a well balanced group can achieve it theory.

Prehaps that's a bit much, but you aren't going to be the best tank unless you communicate with your team. Discuss a deadly combination that simply can't be beat in almost every circumstance. I can tell you 100% of the time that my 64 skill team tank will beat your 8 skill tank.

I hope you're not referring to me cause I did mention that a friendly necro can double team the damage reduction. Prot monk + curse necro = ultimate damage reduction... muahahhahahah! Also, I thought this was a pve scenario?

I like how you mentioned some damage dealing skills with the warrior. Some people insist that a warrior with 8 defensive skills is the best... *cough, elitist, cough*

There should never be anything wrong with a warrior trying to help his team kill things by being more than a big hunk of beef...

Racthoh · Nov 16, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Haha, yes a PvE scenario. Mark of Protection on a warrior? Prehaps that one time against that ranger spike group... taught me to always remember to be in your monks range or you're dead. And actually the situation I described before actually happened, well kinda (didn't need to snare the enemy before) and I must say it work fairly well.

The only stance I bring now (with the exception of UW) is Flurry and I can tank just as well I as used to. I bring attack skills simply because any more defense would be overkill and I think I've found a pretty good balance between offense and defense.

jesh · Nov 17, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The only stance I bring now (with the exception of UW) is Flurry and I can tank just as well I as used to. I bring attack skills simply because any more defense would be overkill and I think I've found a pretty good balance between offense and defense.

Please do post your build? I can't speak for others, but I know I'm interested. From personal experience, I can say that balancing those factors on a warrior is no easy task. Let us bask in your knowledge, oh wise one.

Racthoh · Nov 17, 2005, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Depending on whether I'm with the guild it varies. But typically:

Rebirth/Holy Viel/Mend Ailment (Depends entirely on where I'm going)
Flurry
Hundred Blades
Watch Yourself
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust
Healing Signet
Dolyak Signet

Strength: 11
Sword: 13
Tactics: 12

It's nothing special, the exact same build for solo farming the spiders in FoW. I also carry around a different helm and gauntlets to switch between 16 sword and 9 tactics depending on the situation. It's enough defense to allow a Healing Seed to keep my health steady while standing and attacking in a meteor shower, my defense has few counters (ignorance, soothing images, sympathetic visage, rust, panic, any CoF like ability), and it's very easy to use. Only trick to it is using Healing Signet when both of your defensive boosts are up to ensure maximum effectiveness.

Perfect? Hardly, but the it takes a lot to bring me down.

striderkaaru · Nov 17, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

since racthoh is being generous with his builds, i'll share mine as well (even though it wasn't asked for, hehe). it's my general tanking build, but i only really use it for fow these days.

W/E
attributes:
earth/hammer/strength/tactics
no set numbers because i tweak based on the additional skills i bring. i generally max out earth at 12 and keep hammer at my weapon's req.

main skills:
counter blow
belly smash
earthshaker
aftershock
armor of earth
healing signet

side skills:
irresistable blow - for a more offensive style
berserker stance - not needed so much anymore since the buff to earthshaker
ward vs. melee - added protection for the whole party
"i will survive" - for condition heavy areas
"watch yourself" - additional armor for the whole party
dolyak signet - armor of earth + dolyak anyone?

this build is amazing since it allows me to both tank for myself as well as protect the squishies. self tanking builds are only good if you can ensure aggro on yourself. counter blow, belly smash, earthshaker, "watch yourself", and ward vs. melee all allow you to protect anyone being attacked and knockdown is the ultimate snare. this is a party friendly build designed for bodyguard tanks. it's also a good mix of both offense and party defense.

in my opinion, an ideal party would have two warriors. one would run something similar to racthoh's build and would be the main tank. the other would run a build similar to mine and would pick up any enemies that filter through and generally ensure squishy safety. a monk wouldn't have to worry so much if an abyssal is attacking him when he has a bodyguard bashing its face in.

the only places where the build is weak are places with enchant stripping, blinds, and enemies that cannot be knocked down. enchant strippers always suck, but i usually get so loaded with monk enchants that those get stripped first.

jesh · Nov 17, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Hmm thank you both for the input, some stuff to think about now that MoP=dead. I miss that skill so much.

Esuna · Nov 17, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Thank you for the input

In my original post (referring to PvE, btw), I didn't mean that a tank or a warrior should not or could not do damage, it's more like the art of tanking I'm asking you all to share. A few people hit the nail on the head, saying how a good tank must be able to body block the enemies from the squishies, make the decision of taking the melee mob with him to the ranged ones or not, finding the balance between defense and offense, etc etc

Personally I think 8 skills for survival and defense is a bit too much - isn't it boring just to stand there and take hits...?

I know a friend who's a very good tank - he's a W/Mo that does using the monk side for smiting. I take SF farming again for an example (no flames on that please :P). He's stance/smite, I'm boon prot/smite. We take turns using SoJ on him after he gets the mob and our other teammates brings skills to complement us. He can survive, do damage - but he's no self-mending warrior in TA mind you, and he knows he must take the aggro while we squishies hide behind him.

Perhaps I should list some of what people have said in this thread as suggestions for new players who want to take the tank job?

Carinae · Nov 18, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Sorry for joining this thread late, but I wanted to make a comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

the key is to always be mindful. as a warrior, you're almost always at the front of a group. make sure you ask the casters how their energy situation is before engaging another mob.

If only all Warriors did this simple thing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

finally, a good tank knows how to manage a situation gone wrong. what will you do if, after drawing the aggro of multiple mobs, 2 melee enemies decide to break aggro and run to your monk? you can't exactly run to the rescue because you risk breaking the aggro of the other enemies on you.

This is what I wanted to comment about. This situation is not the tank's responsibility. The tank need to keep the large group agro'd and let the Ele's nuke.

It is the Blood Necro's responsibility to intercept stray enemies and keep them off the monks and eles. AL70 and a few strong Vampiric spells make a Blood Necro able to handle this situation. Throw in Shadow of Fear and you're set.

I play Blood, and I am basically the free-safety. I deal with all the 'other' situations.

If a few Deep Knights go for the monks, either intercept them, or do a pick-and-roll with the monk and take the baddie off his tail. Once they're on you, fire Shadow of Fear, and hammer them with SS and VG.

Plus I carry BiP for the casters and Rend to deal with MoP.

Finally, if everything goes wrong and "Run Run" is called, I am the one who draws the mobs off the monks so they can run away.

Battle Torn · Nov 25, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Thats also a good strategy

We need more casters to accept responsability if things go wrong and not blame the tank because they draw agro because they are too close when combat begins. A tank cannot protect casters if they are holding the majority of the mob in one place and I hate it when people shout "wall" as if its how good you are at stopping the enemy rushing past rather than them staying the hell back.

Buff the warrior, let him run way ahead into the mob, heal him and attack the mob and if you decide to use AOE spells then your asking for the enemy to run away from your spells towards you and then you draw agro, a good tank can call the enemy while you all pound them normaly..... Its so easy

If things go wrong then I preffer to be able to run and rez in FoW and UW but maybe thats because Im a W/Mo, other tanks may not and often depends on the group your in also.

Auntie I · Nov 25, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I mostly play as a squishie so I appreciate a good tank. This thread has been most educational on the differences between a "pure" tank and a balanced build. It has also been most informative about tanking strategies.

I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but when I play my Elementalist I don't always run around when I get attacked. I make an assessment on based on what's attacking me, how hard their hitting me, whether or not they may interrupt my casting and whether or not the Monk is able to Heal or Protect me. My guildies know that if there's only 1 leaker that got through to me, I'm not moving so they usually slap a protection spell on me. If I'm getting hit then they're not so I'm usually worth a Mark of Protection or whatever. It's usually easier for them to heal me that to heal themselves.
I will now try to apply the lessons learned in this thread to the Warrior I created to get the other side of the picture. This game is based on Team work, how can anyone claim to know how one side works without even trying anything else. Eventually I have to create a Monk to gain that perspective as well, but thats for the future.
Continue on with this most valuable thread. And remember: There is no ONE true way!

Racthoh · Nov 25, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

If your elementalist is being attacked, run to your warrior as crazy as it may sound. Run a path around him, there are times when this will break the aggro and the enemy will take focus on the warrior.

Lord Snow · Nov 25, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Keep talking guys!

I've been learning much from this thread.

I used to be of the mindset that like...as a wammo, I'd get the rest of the team to wait back a bit while i pull one group of enemies all the way back to the rest of the group and we all have a happy time whaling on them while the mobs go after the squishies mostly intead of me.

After reading this thread, I'm learning more about the aggro circle and what a real tank shouldbe doing.

The body blocking is fairly difficult so long as the squishies won't listen and stay too close to me...everything ran right past me.

It's hard to be a tank though. The majority of poeple will probably think that tanking is a brainless job but it takes effort. And the problem is that for the most part, if you're not with your friends and guildies, if you're with a PUG, then everyone rushes in at once, regardless of how you try to tell them to stay behind, outside your circle.

I've especially grown annoyed at groups where the elementalists charge in and then yell at me to tank the monsters, even though they're way ahead of me and I don't want to leve the rest of teh group in case something the ele aggroes decides it wants a tastier meal.

But yeah...I've learned much from this thread and I hope to learn much more.

QuixotesGhost · Nov 26, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The patch drastically affected my nuking powers. However, I believe it CAN be a waste of possible resources if the tank can't hurt anything. It doesn't take much to deal damage to a grouped mob. If it wasn't for Mark of Pain's innate ability to cause scattering, (didn't test it in a party yet), then it's still fine.

The tank definition isn't a 'law'. Tanks can take hits, that's fine, but there's an efficiency in it. If you only need 2 skills to turn damage in melee to pretty much nothing, what's the other 6 skills for? If you need 8 skills to turn the damage to something negligible, don't you think it's time you did something else?

The most efficient tanks won't need 8 skill slots to reduce their damage to something that a half-competent monk can easily deal with... The most efficient tanks can contribute to a team as more than a walking mound of brainless muscle.

Don't you think a smart tank will know how to do multi-tasking? He's more useful to his team if he can reduce/remove damage using less skills, then using 8 skills which can interfere with each other... I don't know about you, but as a party tank, I'd like to help my team kill things faster at the same time keeping myself alive. It's not rocket science to be able to do this... Seriously, when fighting melee enemies (ranged enemies can't be AoE nuked efficiently), how hard is it to just do Bonetti's Defense, Enfeebling Blood?

Those 2 skills alone can be used to turn ANYONE into an efficient tank. Toss in Shadow of Fear from a friendly curses necro nearby and blam, 3 skills and you've got an invincible aatxe tank... *tested this and with perfect results, only time we died is when monk / softies came too close...*

Any warrior worth his weight in gold can stop the hardest hitting mob using as few skills as possible... Go damage dealing warriors!!

But now that MoP isn't as effective as it used to be *soloing, didn't try it for parties yet*, I think trying out other AoE dmg may be more feasible.

I agree with Yuk here, again. The issue that I have with 8 defensive skill tanks (and and to a lesser extent bonder monks that only know how to toss 8 dozen maintaned enchants on the warrior and pound blessed sig) is that your really only preparing for the best case scenario. Seriously, from the perspective of my protection monk, if a single warrior managed to keep 100% of the aggro 100% of time, he could run frenzy and I could keep him alive. But we all know that's not the case, stuff happens, and from a personal perpective I'd perfer my warriors to run a few skills that help out the party when they aren't the only ones getting wailed on. Like for example... Damage.