Curse

Battle Torn · Nov 11, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

we can all pull situations out of our hats to make our arguments stronger..for example... tank runs it and draws aggro..a few kills and something is dropped, now the elle or monk runs in to pick it ip (in battle) and draws agro and dies. I have seen this alot..... if others fail then Im sorry I just cant accept that argument if your last standing as a tank you have failed in some way. Dont forget its pretty obvious to me you all know what your talking about and are experienced players and you know how to function, but not everyone does and they end up failing the tank more often than the tank fails the group resulting in the tank being left standing so its impossible to say if your a tank and last standing you have failed because you havent reacted to others mistakes.

As for the comment Yukito Kunisaki made about 2 skills that can beat his W/N build...bonettis def and mark is a good challenge although its not efficient to use em together cos u block the dmg u would be gaining so its better to use one after the other. Healing breeze with a stance is good in most occasions too for the regen while blocking. There is also breeze with Shield of Judgement for those pvp moments of sheer comedy that not only gives u a chance to regen but deals dmg to anyone hitting you, knocks em down and prevents them (for a few secs) from attacking others.

In UW and FoW sprint with rez is good beacuse if you are left standing you can run and return to rez the party and because 1k gold has been spent its a good feeling for a party to know there is a good chance to be rezed by your tank.

Alot of good arguments here.... have learned a few things...I love it!

striderkaaru · Nov 11, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

In UW and FoW sprint with rez is good beacuse if you are left standing you can run and return to rez the party and because 1k gold has been spent its a good feeling for a party to know there is a good chance to be rezed by your tank.

i disagree with this completely and wholeheartedly.

as i mentioned before, you have to realize that we're not all w/mo, meaning our rez only has 1 use. another situation like that and the trip is over. sprint + rez would be a complete waste of my two slots. i would much rather take along two other skills that can help me protect the rest of the party. that way, if things go wrong, i can make sure the monk can get away safely. at least that will have use for me throughout the trip as well.

if you bring sprint and rez, that's two skills on your skill bar just sitting there taking up space until the time is right. however, if you bring two skills that can help protect your other party members, you can use it all throughout the battle, and when things go wrong, you can use it to make sure the monk can get away. two frequently used skills is worth way more than two "just in case" skills.

one thing i should mention is that i don't think that all warriors should be tanks. there are so many different builds out there, and if you want to play a damage dealer, then you should. however, builds like that should never be advertised as tanking builds. a tank is meant to absorb damage for the rest of the party. to me, there's a difference between a self tank and a team tank.

on another note, i haven't been able to really play since the update. i'm sure it has changed a lot of the dynamics of tanking as well.

i'm actually in favor of smarter ai. this means that tanks also have to be smarter now on how they can protect the rest of the party. in my opinion, the skills of the whole party (including the tank) truly shines when things do go wrong. the typical draw aggro + nuke is too easy. but when things go terribly wrong and the whole party still emerges victorious, that's when everyone says, "wow, gj guys." that's when true skill (or luck) comes out. those are the kinds of battles i strive for, when i am taxed to figure out how to effectively take those 3 skeletal berserkers off of the monk. hopefuly, with the update, i will be seeing more of that.

Battle Torn · Nov 11, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

and how will you make sure the monk gets away exactly?..how can you possibly make that as a statment? thats just words and doesnt mean anything. what you going to do if the monks are already dead...run around appologising for not brining a rez of any kind?....Also i was talking about a point of view for a W/Mo not any other build.

I find that I can esily have sprint and rez in my skill bar and still tank, but maybe other builds cant? but I cant comment on that.

I agree not all warriors should be tanks and I have stated this before and Ill say it again W/Mo build is most suited to tanking and from reading others post W/N are as well.

Racthoh · Nov 11, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Given this recent abomination, I mean update, the mobs will lose interest after a while and run away. The cowards way is the best bet now.

striderkaaru · Nov 11, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

don't get me wrong. i don't want to start heated arguments.

i'm not saying whether you can still tank or not (as i'm sure you can), but it is just inefficient use of your skill bar. think about it. during the course of a battle, are you sprinting around and rezzing? most likely not. rez is a good thing to carry, but sprint is just sitting there wasting a spot for the most part.

also, if you don't realize when your monks are being attacked until they're already dead, then i don't know what to say. part of good tanking is realizing in the middle of battle when you need to go help out your monks. it's not just about standing there and soaking up all the damage with your awesome tanking build, then running away when everyone else is dead. it's about watching the whole battle unfold before you and knowing how to react. i'm not saying i'm a pro at this, either. it's a learning experience, but that is what a true tank does.

i would much rather bring a skill that can help during battle instead of after.

and my tank build uses a hammer. is there a pesky melee chasing your monk? knock him down and position yourself in front. they aren't just words. i can back it up.

plus, you're statement about w/mo being most suited for tanking couldn't be farther from the truth. i believe all sub-classes to be equal in their abilities to tank.

QuixotesGhost · Nov 11, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Let's not forget that there are possible circumstances where you won't have a curses necro. Hey it happens.

For me, it happens about 100% of the time. I guess Necros are more interested in other things besides Curses. Makes sense to me. Curses serves me, a warrior with low e. pool and low regen just fine... If one doesn't have a high curse necro, then my warrior brings MoP. Which is again sadly, 100% of the time...

I agree with Yuk's assesment here. I think I've partied with only one curse necro in the past month. Groups only want Blood is Power or Minions... sad but true.

I think it has something to do with how freaking hard it is to figure out how many people in your party are actually doing physical damage before you set out.

Hey Ranger are you doing physical damage?
Yes.
*Preps Kindle*

Hey W/E are you doing physical damage?
Yes.
*Casts Conjure Flame*

Hey W/Mo are you doing physical damage?
Yes.
*Casts Judge's Insight*

That's what I ran into trying to run curses in PuGs.

Epinephrine · Nov 12, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Unfortunate about the curse necros; since I play one I don't see it much, and I guess guild groups are more educated; we normally have to haggle over who does cursing. A while back we ran 2 necros; one was minions 16 death/15 soul reaping, the other was running curses with death to aid in minion maintenance - 15 curses, 11 soul reaping, 11 death. Guild groups do that - support each other's builds, and I am used to doing it in pugs as well - find out what others are using and skill to benefit it.

Racthoh · Nov 12, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I am used to doing it in pugs as well - find out what others are using and skill to benefit it.

You could actually get PUGS to listen to you? Everytime I get into a groups it's all "gogogogogogo", no planning whatsoever, are our monks truly monks and not those solo builds that will die in 5 seconds since we're going to FoW and not UW. That really is the problem, when people won't listen or tell you your skillbars. It's becoming harder to strike up a single conversation, or to get a response to "Hi" once I join a group. It's no wonder why the concept of tanking truly can't be understood when communication is minimal.

jesh · Nov 12, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I couldn't agree more on the comments on pugs, Racthoh. People are in too much of a hurry to commit suicide and lose, communication is pretty much non existant.

And Epinephrine, I've been saying this for a while, there is basically no such thing as a pve curses necro, but until now you haven't believe it...

Battle Torn · Nov 14, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Ok granted if you have a hammer you can knock down a single melee attacking a player, but does someone whose being attacked by a single enemy need saving? and also what about casters cos they do not chase really anyway and attack and I dont know anyone who can (by themselves) take down high lvl enemies that quickly that they can save anyone who cant save themselves first. You cant save everybody and the people you have saved have probably got allot to do with that themselves just as much as the ones you couldn’t (so I maintain that you cant be blamed). Ok maybe I have to respect others ways of tanking if I am expected to have them respect mine, but as a closing statement that you cant argue with fact that different builds are better for different things (if you use them to full effect) so Ill stick by my statement until I see something that makes me think otherwise.

striderkaaru · Nov 14, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

ok, maybe i should be a bit more specific.

essentially, my point is that sprint + res is really only useful AFTER battle. in my opinion, it would be better to carry other skills that are useful DURING battle.

let's take a look at an example.

3 hard hitting enemies are forcibly violating your cute little monk.
sprint + res: you can run over and then res the monk once she's dead. in your opinion, she should have been able to save herself anyway.
counter blow + belly smash: knockdown one enemy, cancelling his attack, and blind all 3. this effectively gives the monk 90% evasion. i just increased the monks chances of survival.

i don't know about you, but in terms of the party as a whole, option 2 would be more desireable. of course, this is just an example and it does depend on your entire skillset. but my point still stands. it's better to have skills useful for all situations rather than when everything is over. res might be a good thing to have, but not sprint. it's just wasting a spot on your skill bar.

and yes, i agree that every build has its uses. and i also think that all w/* professions have their own potential for tanking. however, to hear you say that w/mo is best suited for tanking is both arrogance on your part and insulting to any other warrior. i will agree that w/mo is good for tanking, but "best" is a strong word.

Battle Torn · Nov 14, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

lol...dude did you rad my posts last I heard i said im my opinion W/Mo in general make the best tanks cos they are self sustainable as do other builds. And my point is that no i totaly disagree with you that you have failed as a tank if your party dies...lol there are just too many variables for that to be true. Also usualy there is more than one of your group being attacked and you cant save em all in FoW or UW. My best tactics is to be able to survive if things go wrong and rez the group and I do not belive that im alone in thinking thats a solid strategy and im prepared to sacrifice the skill slots in order to do that for the group.

I also disagree that Im being arrogant as i have also said W/E do most dmg and W/N are a solid build although i have no experience playing a W/N but i have read the posts and agree. I think you may be a little arrogany yourself telling someonelse that they are wasting skill slots just because you adopt a different tactic you beleive to be best....but no your not your just giving your opinion in this forum, as am I and it shouldnt be taken personaly.

so have you never been last standing in FoW or UW? i have and i can tell you that people are generaly grateful and have said often "at last a warrior who knows what hes doing" Im sure you have too when you have saved your party.

Epinephrine · Nov 14, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

You could actually get PUGS to listen to you? Everytime I get into a groups it's all "gogogogogogo", no planning whatsoever, are our monks truly monks and not those solo builds that will die in 5 seconds since we're going to FoW and not UW. That really is the problem, when people won't listen or tell you your skillbars. It's becoming harder to strike up a single conversation, or to get a response to "Hi" once I join a group. It's no wonder why the concept of tanking truly can't be understood when communication is minimal.

Offtopic, but :

Yeah, I tend to make my own groups. I recruit specifically for a task, see Ix Chel's guide to a good pug. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=25933
When you actively recruit good players you get good players.

One thing I've noticed is that if you start by taking the monk henchmen it goes better. You get players who can work with monk henchies, whoc are often better players, and if a monk comes along you just sub out a henchy for him. Saves time on recruiting monks, you get players who generally understand the AI a bit.

Racthoh · Nov 14, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Probably going about this the wrong way, as really it sounds as if we're talking about entirely different situations. Tanking in a completely random PUG as opposed to a group of friends. At least thats the situation I'm getting the impression of.

Odds are in a PUG, that you will probably not get 7 other people to understand the tactic that well. Even when I've tried, insisted, and repeated myself after several fights, it just doesn't set in with some people that they have to stay back. This leads to a situation where the tank will be the last one standing because the enemies will go straight for your soft targets that followed you in. You can also bet that your allies, at least not all of them, know how to break aggro with an enemy.

When you consider an organized group, it is the complete opposite. You can easily grab the aggro and maintain it while the other members of the party do their thing. The tank is taking all of the damage, and will always be the first one to fall. If anything goes wrong, odds are the players you are with understand the situation and know to let the tank die so they may retreat.

In both situations, I find the words "Run Run" mean completely different things. In the PUG, everyone runs away, except one monk who insists on staying to heal me. Eventually, the rest of the group will come back surely as the monk falls. Now, I'm lucky to have one enemy still on me while I attempt to regain aggro while the rest of the party starts to drop. In a controlled situation, they will run and I will die and get ressed. One death compared to many, and you can believe in a PUG once one person has 15% DP it will continue to rise.

In which case, I would say that the W/Mo is *probably* better suited for the PUG. Not saying they are useless in an organized group, but I find it allows for experimentation as you know you'll have good players to bank on when the your sense of creativity doesn't work out.

Battle Torn · Nov 14, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Absolutley, well said. Its a sad fact that its very rarely that you find yourself in a fully experienced group as there is only usualy 2-3 who take control and organise the party. All Im saying is for me its best just to be prepared and use skills in FoW and UW that will gaurntee the groups survival unless i die also. Im also not maintaining that Im wholely responsible for being last standing in situations of course not, but when the group has cast their buffs on me contributing in my survival (allong with my skills) and they are dead Ill at least be able to pay them back by retreating and come back and rez the group.

Slade xTekno · Nov 14, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

/sigh. People fighting Epinephrine... it's like watching lemmings hurl themselves off a cliff.

The simple job of a Guild Wars tank is to take damage. Aggro is simply gained by engaging the enemy with allies are outside your aggro bubble and maintained by standing in one spot. Taking damage is done is done is in a variety of ways, whether it be avoiding it with stances, reducing it with a buffed AP, taking it with buffed HP, or combining any of the above.

Any spot use for "damage" is a spot wasted for a defensive ability that could keep you alive longer. Plus, damage should not be needed on a tank, as the responsibility falls upon nukers.
Using Yukito's build as an example, I am fine with Enfeebling Blood, as it does well to keep damage off you. However, Mark of Pain is extraneous, especially if you have a nuker with half a lemon for a brain [although the patch has affected this].

Nessaja · Nov 14, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

Any spot use for "damage" is a spot wasted for a defensive ability that could keep you alive longer. Plus, damage should not be needed on a tank, as the responsibility falls upon nukers.

You'd think so.

I started a W/Mo with my friend recently, we're at the ring of fire, completed the game. I found that, with pretty much all allies. The big damage came from us, especially now as AOE spells trigger enemies to run, there werent any contenders when it came to damage.

Basicly, if either of us was dead, the killing of mursaat bosses (monk/necro especially) took eons. While we had the intentions to be pure tanks at start.

In PUGS I found that just endure pain is enough and for the other skills -> all out damage.

striderkaaru · Nov 15, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

ok, perhaps using the word "failure" is a bit harsh on my part. but if you look at the intent of the original post of this thread, it's a caster thanking a tank for doing his job right. it's a caster who is alive thanking the tank for doing his job right.

to me, tanking is more than just about the build. there is a difference between the build itself, and what the tank actually does in battle. it starts with the build, but shouldn't stop there. you might be able to come up with a build that can tank the whole world, but unless you can do something for the rest of your party, it's not a very team oriented one. unless you cast mending or healing breeze on anyone other than yourself, it's still a self-oriented play style.

so, like i said, the original intent of this thread wasn't about how great a tank's build is and how he can outlast everyone else. it's about a tank doing his job in a team setting.

but i guess you can stop arguing with me if it seems pointless. looking back at fantasy movies and stories of old, which warriors were the ones that eminated bravery and inspired you?

it wasn't the ones who said, "i'll be back to save you when the danger is gone, guys."

no. it was the ones who stood their ground and said, "go ahead. i'll hold them off."

yes, gw is just a game, but i like to get into character once in a while. let me have my dreams.

Battle Torn · Nov 15, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

A true warrior knows when to fight and when to run

or is that a smart warrior? I cant remember... sure thing... play the way you want and how you enjoy... I know I do

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 15, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

/sigh. People fighting Epinephrine... it's like watching lemmings hurl themselves off a cliff.

The simple job of a Guild Wars tank is to take damage. Aggro is simply gained by engaging the enemy with allies are outside your aggro bubble and maintained by standing in one spot. Taking damage is done is done is in a variety of ways, whether it be avoiding it with stances, reducing it with a buffed AP, taking it with buffed HP, or combining any of the above.

Any spot use for "damage" is a spot wasted for a defensive ability that could keep you alive longer. Plus, damage should not be needed on a tank, as the responsibility falls upon nukers.
Using Yukito's build as an example, I am fine with Enfeebling Blood, as it does well to keep damage off you. However, Mark of Pain is extraneous, especially if you have a nuker with half a lemon for a brain [although the patch has affected this].

The patch drastically affected my nuking powers. However, I believe it CAN be a waste of possible resources if the tank can't hurt anything. It doesn't take much to deal damage to a grouped mob. If it wasn't for Mark of Pain's innate ability to cause scattering, (didn't test it in a party yet), then it's still fine.

The tank definition isn't a 'law'. Tanks can take hits, that's fine, but there's an efficiency in it. If you only need 2 skills to turn damage in melee to pretty much nothing, what's the other 6 skills for? If you need 8 skills to turn the damage to something negligible, don't you think it's time you did something else?

The most efficient tanks won't need 8 skill slots to reduce their damage to something that a half-competent monk can easily deal with... The most efficient tanks can contribute to a team as more than a walking mound of brainless muscle.

Don't you think a smart tank will know how to do multi-tasking? He's more useful to his team if he can reduce/remove damage using less skills, then using 8 skills which can interfere with each other... I don't know about you, but as a party tank, I'd like to help my team kill things faster at the same time keeping myself alive. It's not rocket science to be able to do this... Seriously, when fighting melee enemies (ranged enemies can't be AoE nuked efficiently), how hard is it to just do Bonetti's Defense, Enfeebling Blood?

Those 2 skills alone can be used to turn ANYONE into an efficient tank. Toss in Shadow of Fear from a friendly curses necro nearby and blam, 3 skills and you've got an invincible aatxe tank... *tested this and with perfect results, only time we died is when monk / softies came too close...*

Any warrior worth his weight in gold can stop the hardest hitting mob using as few skills as possible... Go damage dealing warriors!!

But now that MoP isn't as effective as it used to be *soloing, didn't try it for parties yet*, I think trying out other AoE dmg may be more feasible.