Curse

DragonEye · Nov 22, 2005, 04:23 PM // 16:23

hi there,

I am wondering what your strategy is towards forming a team to enter the tournament.

Do you like pick people that have rank 3 or more or is there another way to determine if a team will succeed in the tombs?

It's just that i can win like 90% of my fights in the arena but it seems like when I'm in the tombs there is always some person that screws it up

DragonEye

Zephyr Jackson · Nov 22, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

How are you supposed to gain rank if you cant get into HoH?

Racthoh · Nov 22, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I wouldn't rely on rank, for all you know they simply slapped Charm Animal on their skill bar and can't understand different strategies. Secondly, players will advertise themselves as being rank 5, when they're actually rank 3. For all you know, a player with rank 0 could be very talented in PvP, however they only participate in GvG.

I wouldn't take the players that beg to get into groups. They're more than likely impatient and won't want to discuss what strategy you're bringing to the fight. They'll eventually meet up with other players like them so don't feel like you're making them outcasts.

jules · Nov 22, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Patience is a very good filter. If someone's spamming 'GO GO GOGOGO!' while you're organising your first run let them leave rather than rush yourself in because they're likely to be rubbish themselves.

crimsonfilms · Nov 22, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Rank/Fame is useful but far from the only and final determination of skill. Rank/fame is better indication of "experience." Once you get to the high level ranks thus it become a better indication of skill - in a general sense. Remember that Rank 9 player could have gotten it doing monk duties most of the time. If he is now playing say a mesmer - all that rank goes out the window.

8v8 is very complex and requires a lot of factors to consider.
Team comm, build, personality, leadership, experience and etc.

The rank 3 requirement? Unfortunately, you will need to grind out bad PUGs and win some fame slowly. Think of it as trying to get your first job out of college (they need experience but you cant get any because you cant get a job).

That is why IWAY is so popular. It is simple enough and durable enough to win 1 or more matches.

dr_james2k · Nov 22, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I like to give everyone an equal chance. I like to have 3 monks, 2 warriors and the rest an assortment of caster, usually a mesmer, elemenatlist and necro.
2 monks heal, 1 protects.
Warriors tank and defend.
Mesmer shuts down, elementalist nukes and necro acts as a battery,

Its a bit of a n00b strategy but gives good results if you can get the right plays, especially where one warrior calls and all the casters concentrate fire on tehe target (monks first - then warrior/monks. Then eles, etc).

Also if your mesmer has sympathetic visage it can more or less stop a warrior heavy team (not so much IWAY but any axe or hammer wielding warriors are especially prone to this).

Billiard · Nov 22, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

You can also try getting together a team in the #gwp IRC channel. Lots of good folks frequent there, but they also don't just jump on any team.

weis · Nov 23, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

What's this #gwp irc channel you talk about?

I can't find it on quake or ircnet.. :<

JR · Nov 23, 2005, 09:12 AM // 09:12

irc.gamesurge.net

But be prepared for strong language, abusive comments, and complete lack of mercy.

Navaros · Nov 23, 2005, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Rank 3 groups generally won't have much success in Tombs, although at least they are a bit better than unranked groups.

Rank 6 used to be mostly all experts but over the months this has changed, now with many mediocre players being at Rank 6. That said, Rank 6 pugs are still infinitely better than Rank 3 pugs.

Ultimately if you want to win consistently in Tombs, the best bet is to either run IWAY or get to know who the good players are, almost all of which are Rank 6 plus, and have them take you under their wing.

Trying to assemble an unranked non-IWAY group to dominate with in Tombs is like trying to find a needle in a haystick. It's possible, but realistically it ain't gonna happen.

Patrograd · Nov 23, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

The first thing good players will (or at least should) look for when joining a PUG is organisation. So if you advertise for teammembers like this (this is not a suggested build btw, just an example of how to recruit):

Forming vent group - LF 1 x w/e, 2 x fire eles, 1 x death necro, 1 x dom mes, 2 x healers 1 x prot

And edit it as members join you will get a better response. Accept NO blind invites, ensure that you as team leader have whispered every applicant to the team and are happy that they are the kind of person you want. Have at least a rough idea of the skillbars that you want each member to have and let them know in advance.

Before going in explain to all members over voice that as this is a PUG it may take a run or two to get into the swing and if anyone is in a rush to go somewhere else can they leave now please, and explain the base strategy of what you want each member to do. Be prepared to be adaptable and realise that the other members will expect you to lead. Appoint a main and secondary target caller and reorganise the group order before entering. All of this takes time - 20 or 30 minutes typically, but is well worth the wait if you are selective on who you take - not based on rank but on how they come over when you whisper them

While it is unlikely that you will win HoH with a group of people you've never met before, you never know, it might be your lucky day. At the very least with a sound plan and team build combined with voice comms you will earn some fame and have the real fun of leading a team to some victories in the tombs.

Oh, and one last thing. There is nothing more frustrating than joining a team like this, standing around for 20 minutes while the leader builds, and then have the leader quit after the first run - so make sure that you have the time to spare before setting up your group - suggest 2 hours or more.

Adambomb · Nov 23, 2005, 09:46 AM // 09:46

I'm quite new to PvP.. I've practically done most things in PvE so I'm moving on to player vs player. I frequent CA and usually win, using both my W/Mo and R/*. I've learnt some tactics and accomodate my builds to what I think is good [Trapping, spike etc.] I haven't tried IWAY because of all the stigma surrounding it... it also seems quite easy to win using it anyway.

I do a bit of GvG and TBH my guild isn't all that good but we practise. We've done TA in Droks a few times and we did ok.

But now I want to fry the bigger fish and enter HoH but I can hardly ever find a team. When I say something like 'High damage swordsman LFP' or 'Ranger experienced with most builds LFG' people will whisper me and ask my rank. Hmmm seems having 0 rank gets you no where... =(

I don't see how people can expect to find rank 3+ people when no one under is getting into teams...

-Adam

Mystical · Nov 23, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Trying to assemble an unranked non-IWAY group to dominate with in Tombs is like trying to find a needle in a haystick. It's possible, but realistically it ain't gonna happen.

Oh do I know this for a fact. Even if I create a group and do as Patrograd mentioned, still people are very impatient since all they know is IWAY. No one in the unranked community is willing to give a build suggestions, let alone a second chance. It's the 'win or I leave' mentality hurting those of us that don't want to do IWAY and want to gain rank.

Alas, however, I've given in and been a trapper for a few IWAY groups as I'm getting very tired of gaining 1 fame every few hours.

Elrodien · Nov 23, 2005, 10:21 AM // 10:21

I always thought Guild teams would be the best way to get a good Tombs team going but in my experience it is not always the case.

I'm from a similar background as Adambomb. My guild is a primarily a PvE guild, and only recently started playing GvG. We are a very lucky team at GvG because we always seem to run into a team of 4 or 5 players with henchies!!!! (got to rank 950 the other day, probably you guys are lol-ing but we think its great for a team that has only started).

Now I am very interested in the Tombs but trying to bring some of our members onside is difficult. Most of them have run out of slots for a PvP only char that can be changed to suit whatever build we want to try, and whenever we all go to tombs it is usually as a balanced team that gets hammered by everything going. Infact most of them don't understand the whole Tombs thing, the metagame, the builds, etc.

Guild Tombs teams seems the best way to get experience in the Tombs without having to put up with rank snobbery and all it entails, but unless you are in a guild that has a big enough PvP interest its IWAY fame farming.....

Adambomb · Nov 23, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

No one in the unranked community is willing to give a build suggestions, let alone a second chance.

We aren't all like that you know....

OneArmedScissor · Nov 23, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Regardless of all the advise, 9 times out of 10 you won't get a good group unless you're rank3+.

glenn_rolfe · Nov 23, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Just advertise that you're a W/Mo massive damage dealer, immune to degen, and that you have the ultimate build and will take everyone to halls and hold it all day and night and that they can come along to make up numbers while you kill everything.

Don't forget to say that you're lvl 20.

Gwenhywar · Nov 24, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr_james2k

Warriors tank and defend.
Mesmer shuts down, elementalist nukes and necro acts as a battery,

There is no such a thing as "tank" or "defender" in PvP. Noone is attacking the warrior first, so there is no way he can "tank" and absorb the damage for the softer targets - that is completely a PvE concept.

In tombs some of the typical tasks for 1 or 2 warriors in a balanced team are to deal pressure damage and spike damage on soft targets, interrupt trappers from trapping, run relics in relic maps, knockdown casters, thus preventing them from casting/healing, etc. Often warrior is also the main target caller. It is usually harder to find a good warrior than it is to find a decent healer, since many people play them, but few are very good at it (I know I can't play a warrior in PvP myself).

And that necro battery thing ... another PvE concept :/. There are much MUCH more fun, useful and dangerous things a necro can do in a balanced tombs team. Think curses, and corpse consumption - just to give one example.

I would suggest you to check out some of the latest Guild of the week articles - take build ideas from there, NOT from PvE. PvE and 8v8 PvP are 2 completely different concepts, and what works nicely in one, is ridiculous in other. And vice versa.

To the OP - Patrograd earlier wrote some very good ideas already. I can just add: if you want to be serious about PvP, why not join a PvP guild so that you meet more likely minded people, can discuss and make builds together, and have some great fun in GvGs as well, not just tombs? PUGs is a way to grind rank 3, but NOWHERE near as fun or as good learning experience as tombing together with your guild.

Also, dont expect you'll immediately start winning halls as soon as you get a decent team together, and just take it all as fun and learning experience. Also be aware that once your team/guild has made up a good team build, it takes LOTS of tries to practice it and make it work perfectly. Don't expect a new build to work instantly - the teams you see winning halls all the time have been running their builds MANY MANY MANY times and could do it blindfolded.

Tombs is all about patience and persistance. Saddly, most players lack both of those and do not succeed untill they realize it.

A well organized rank 3 team should be able to win a few maps in row, but it is not until rank 6+ that you can reasonably expect to put together a team that can go all the way, take it, and hold it as well. Many tombs maps are 90% about knowing all possible strategies people do on those maps, and quickly deciding what tactics will be best for YOUR team, taking into account YOUR current adversaries, etc. All that takes much more than just knowing your skillbar and being able to call targets.

Good luck!

~Railin~

Navaros · Nov 24, 2005, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystical

Alas, however, I've given in and been a trapper for a few IWAY groups as I'm getting very tired of gaining 1 fame every few hours.

Well, if you wanna hear something ironic that might comfort you a bit; I'm in an expert Guild that is capable of beating most other teams, but I have gone back to using IWAY even so because my Guild mates love to skip maps (which totally fubars my fame accumulation rate) whereas in my own IWAY pugs I can quit and go back in again if skips happen. And also my Guild likes to try "test builds" that hardly get any fame.

Joining R6+ PUGs is even worse because they are less skilled, and after they get a party together (which takes forever, usually), they often still lose a few rounds in and then disband. Only accumulating a few fame for the whole ordeal.

What I'm trying to say is, the grass is always greener on the other side. A person less than Rank 6 and who's not in a good Guild may think that having those two things would solve his fame accumulation woes; but in actuality they may just cause for new frustrations to arise.

For these reasons, in one way or another fame always remains a tough thing to rack up.

JR · Nov 24, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Your point is flawed.

A person who is R6 and in a guild, can either play with their guilds, pug in r6+ teams, OR just pug whatever. A person who has neither r6 OR a guild, can only pug.

I really don't see your problem with skipping maps, it makes no sense at all. You are still going on to ANOTHER map where you can STILL get fame. Quitting out and going back in does nothing but lose your consecutive streak, and puts the stoppers on any hope of you making it to halls.

As for your expert guild, well they like to run different builds, which sounds quite nice actually. Playing something fresh that just might work really well is one of the few pleasures left, once you are bored of standard or FoTM builds.

Also your guild isn't on the ladder, so I'm guessing by 'expert' you mean tombs experts... but thats a bit of an oxymoron.