Curse

Dzan · Nov 30, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

In 4v4 I am a big proponent of overload, since there is usually only 1 monk. I am a fan of traps, smiting, aoe, spiteful spirit etc. Put one hammer warrior on the monk and then go about spreading as much hate as you can across the board and the monk will get overloaded fairly quick. Since OoB is the main 4v4 monk energy gainer so long as you keep the pressure up they wont be able to use it effectively.

That said, if they are running a two monk team it requires a lot more flexibility in tactics.

Jetdoc · Nov 30, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

You would be amazed that with one warrior on a monk, how many monks panic into self healing, letting their teammates die one by one while they struggle to keep themselves alive.

In the Competition Arena, I always bring my "disrupting" build as a warrior for this very reason. IMO, occupying an enemy monk (one on one) is much more valuable to your team than the protection you can do to your casters.

An Axe Warrior/Mesmer can achieve this with striking effectiveness. Bring Backfire, Disrupting Chop and Fear Me, and you can basically take their monk out of the game, whether protection or healing.

jibikao · Nov 30, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

You would be amazed that with one warrior on a monk, how many monks panic into self healing, letting their teammates die one by one while they struggle to keep themselves alive.

I used to have the 'everyone on one target' mentality, but lately i like having at least one off target just for that reason.

I actually feel Protection monk is better than Healing Monk. Healing Monk basically just tries to out heal but they have less skills to protect themselves from the obvious threat: Warrior/Ranger. There are just so many warriors in competition arena and they almost always go after monk.

Knockdown Warrior can own a monk if that monk has no protection skills like Guardian, Reveral Fortunte, Protective Spirit. I don't think any warrior can beat a protection Monk. And the problem gets worse if you have a protection and a healing monk on the opponent team. lol The battle can take up to 15 mins without any result.

The most annoying one is Kiting, Protection monk. Oh... man.

Like I've said before, Healing/Protection Monk is the only class that is useful in ANY situation.

No other classes enjoy this benefit. Warriors can be easily shut down. Rangers can be easily shut down with the right skills (Blind, Empathy, Spiteful, Spirit shackle, or simply spam Guardian and Reversal of Fortune). Ele, Necro, Mesmer can be easily shut down by Ranger/Mesmer interruption or they simply run out of energy when the monks just keep his teammates alive. I still feel the imbalance of the game is Monk but that's just my opinion.

Monks also ruin Monks themselves. Good Monks, bad Monks. Monk players always get scolded when somebody dies. Monk players need to suffer a lot of pressure playing a class that everybody hates. I want to try out smiting Monk with max. Strength of Honor but I know the moment people see Monk, I am doomed. I can't enjoy smiting monk as much as I enjoy Ranger/Necro who don't always get target first.

Monk basically turns the game into "LF Healer/Protector". That's what's like in PvE. I don't think you always need monks to beat PvE Missions but having one is ALWAYS better than not having one and that's the sad reality; whereas you can do most mission without a warrior/ranger/ele/mesmer/necro.

jibikao · Nov 30, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I agree with jibikao.

I have often felt that the smiting/protecting bit should be a different class from the healing; having both those branches in one class is what makes monks so much more versatile than any other class.

Talk about Shield of Judgement Monk + Protection and + some healing. Those can take ages to kill if you don't have the right skills, which are not many in this game.

Maxiemonster · Nov 30, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Haha

It's so cool to see the full Competition Arena team ganking you like hell, and you keep healing, and eventually they'll change target because they can't get you down. I don't know what's the best stratagy, if a good Healing Monk is your opponent in Competition Arena, I think you should call him. Though, most people think 'This monk will run out of Energy soon', but if that's not the situation, they freek out, trying to kill other enemies, which is even harder with a good monk around. So, I'd say, kill the monk first in CE, especially when your build is kinda made for it, just call him immidiatly. Though, in HoH, a full team should get a player down with ease when you time your attacks, so there's way less reason to attack him first, an annoying mesmer or something could be first priority. In Team Arenas, you can of course, choose, if someone/the team is running a build that can easily take out monks, go for it, otherwise, otherwise, not.

About Healing Monks defenceless against KD Warriors.. Pretty true, they get me in 4 hits (using 2 -75 Health runes + full Judge's set), and you don't have the time to do anything against it.

vvh · Nov 30, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Attacking whoever on the other team is the job of the caller. Seriously, if you wanna win the game, you'd better have a good caller and follow calls. Switching is the best stragtegy you can ever have against decent healer and protection. Attack a fake target first, then quickly switch to monk and he/she will drop like flies

audioaxes · Nov 30, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

in 4v4 there should be 2 targets attacked at once. Obviously this is very difficult to coordinate in random arenas. Random people are likely to do very stupid stuff like dumb W/Mo's that always attack other W/Mo's even when there are the only one left and the enemy monk is healing the tank, yet even then they cant seem to figure out that maybe *just maybe* they should attack the monk instead.

Banebow · Nov 30, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

The best players would understand that it is almost always "as situation given".

Depending on the situation that you should adjust your tactic.

But, it if quite unfortunate that it is hard to find groups going at each other all out with such high level play. So, usually the basic will do just fine.

Agreed, quoted for truth, however you wish to put it

Hiryu · Nov 30, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

I am tired of arguing with random teammates. Personally, I don't like going after monk first but in 4v4 game with two monks (the worst is one Healing and one Protection), I have no choice.

99% of the people Call Out Monk. Is this REALLY the best strategy? Just want to hear your opinions.

My opinion is it depends. If there is a soft target like Ele, Necro, Mesmer, I always go after them first and force the monk to heal him while my teammates chase the monk. I use pet to interrupt so I can easily shut down a Necro or Ele.

I think you've got the right idea. Calling out the monk first is not always the best strategy. People who say that you should always target monks first are, bluntly put, not experienced enough to know otherwise. Sometimes, you should kill the monk(s), first, sometimes you shouldn't. It really depends on a lot of factors. Their "threat level" depends on a ton of things like their reaction time, whether they're running bonds, if your team has shutdown/counters, and so on.

Your ultimate goal in most battles is to kill the other team and live through it. If the enemy monks don't pose a major threat to your team's achieving this goal, then you can pretty much ignore them. For example, say your 4v4 team happens to have enough spike damage to kill an enemy in about 1.3s. And you've gauged the enemy monk's reaction time to be more than about 1s. Heal Other takes 0.75s to cast. You'll be able to drop a target before their monk can react. In this case, their monk might as well be non-existant, so it poses no threat to your team. So your best course of action will probably be to kill it last, or whenever opportune.

Try to kill the biggest threat, and kill targets of opportunity. You can't go wrong.

Check out some of the Guild of the Week blurbs at guildwars.com to get some tips on target calling.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 30, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

In 4v4, it can be beneficial to attack the Monk first or not, depending on the Monk's build.

If you have a healing Monk set up to heal others, it is best to attack them first, as an interrupt or two will ensure you can bring them down quickly. However, most Monks in 4v4 are set up to tank above all, exactly because of this 'kill the Monk first' mentality. The trouble is, how do you know which is which?

It's often difficult to tell just by looking, though there are certain warning signs. Tank Monks often go Ele secondary and use Kinetic Armor or Armor of Earth, so they are easy to identify by those spells or if they are spamming a Reversal every 8 seconds pre-battle. Word of Healing is a staple spell for Monks set up to heal others over themselves, so if you see a Monk using that it's usually better to target him first.

In general, if your team's collective damage is showing no signs of dropping a Monk after 5-10 seconds, switch to another target. If he's specced for tanking the other target will drop quickly, and if not you're at least forcing him to spread his protection enchantments around and use precious energy.

If I had a nickle for every time I'd dropped an Elementalist or Mesmer while the Earth-based Monk stood and watched (maybe throwing out a non-booned Orison), I'd be a very rich man.

Waylayer Brixt · Nov 30, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I typically go for the monk first, just because kills are everything in PvP, and the monk is the first obstical stopping you from killing any opponent.

For Random Arena, yes it is best to go for the Monk first, simply because the people you play with will most likely not be able to use advanced tactics which you would use otherwise.

Adria Soulseeker · Nov 30, 2005, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I play a lot of CA since I dont have luxury of being able to spend much time playing and haging out in TA for hours "spike R/E LF well balance group". I can honestly say that 90% of the players in CA are so new to the game that they dont even know what a called target is, let alone HOW to call a target or that, heaven forbid, you should FOLLOW a called target!

I generally try to call the Monks out first unless i see the situation unfold in a way that dictates otherwise. I also agree that Rangers make the best callers (even though 80% of the time i see the warriors attacking other warriors instead of the called target; "me bash heads" GAH!). We usually get the see the entire battlefield from a birds eye view because you will always find me seeking high ground!

you know what's even worse than seeing a Warrior attacking another Warrior when they were not the called target? Seeing a Warrior rush after a PET instead of the called target! LOL sure, pets are legitimate targets at times but NEVER a priority target.

Ensign · Dec 01, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

You go for the monks when you need a blowout victory. Otherwise you play defensively and try and knock out key offensive targets. In general you kill Monks first on dais maps in tombs, or when trying to come back from a losing position. I only gun for monks first in straight up 8v8 fights if I have zero respect for their offense.

In 4v4 arena the rule is something like:

Attack monks first if they have two monks
Attack their only monk first if your team does not have a monk
Attack a mesmer or other softie first if your team does have a monk and they have only one monk

Peace,
-CxE

entropy · Dec 01, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I agree with ensign. If you can take down their offense first then you will be well on their way to taking down the monks themselves. After all if they can't kill you their monks don't really matter. But CA is basically luck of the draw. 2 monks+2 other teamates usually wins if you have no monk. Or basically monkvs non-monk team. If the monk is decent you will probably lose. Thats why I hate CA but a GvG take a lot of time to organize and tombs takes a decent time as well

.

a cadet · Dec 01, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Who you attack first depends, almost exclusively, on what your build is. If you are using a spike group, go for a target that may disrupt your spike first. If you are using a pressure build, you clearly wont be able to take out an offensive player unless the monks are softened.

Your best friend when choosing who to target first is experience in organized PvP games.

Patrograd · Dec 01, 2005, 08:41 AM // 08:41

One other quick point. Monks usually dont carry rez, so killing them last makes sense, as they can be left with two or three characters alive but no means of resurrecting.

Numa Pompilius · Dec 01, 2005, 09:33 AM // 09:33

In CA, if the opposing team has two monks you might as well forfeit the match. The odds that your random team happens to have skills to stop one good monk is low; that odds of stopping two monks is pretty much zero.

In pve and in random arena, monks are teh uber. Like Jibikao says, the only class that is always useful.

How do you guys feel about my idea of splitting the monk class into two classes? One class (Inquisitor, say) with protection and smiting, and one class (Healer) with healing and divine favor.

jules · Dec 01, 2005, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Yes.

I play a prot boon monk in CA and 99% of the time when I don't get swarmed I can keep everyone alive with minimal energy issues. And KD/AS>monks.

Timoz · Dec 01, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Firstly, it depends on the build your running.
Secondly, depends on the build your opponents are running.

You need to adapt as you go along in the fight, mesmers go on your monks, you disable their monks and kill the mesmers. Mesmers go on your damage dealers/mesmers, you disable their mesmers and take the monks. If your running a spike or high dmg build kill whatever could disable your spike.. etc.etc.

Most builds i run winning the halls.. everyone has different targets, we have to adapt to everyone we play.

Tronny07 · Dec 02, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

i think,mesmers,should be handled by a ranger or a mesmer,with interrup,or backfire...and if ur going against a team,look at their secondarys,if its an aftershock warrior,in my opinion hes the first to go for,or an iway warrior...but if theirs nothing their,always go for a mesmer or ele