Curse

rii · Dec 03, 2005, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I was reading the gotw this week, it was about sk gaming, who ive never heard of (but i dont play much nowadays), and for once i read something which might be of interest:

Quote:

Tactics
After losing to the Korean guild a couple of times, SKs incorporated some of the tactics that they have observed into their own builds. They devised a build made up of two self-contained teams, meaning each team is able to do damage, heal, and retreat when required. However, the build is flexible enough that the players can still choose to fight together as an eight-player team—and they can do so efficiently if there is a need to do so.

The build uses two self-contained teams to constantly run around the map, playing hit-and-run tactics, and potentially trying to assault the Guild Lord. Because enemy teams often move in a group of eight, they may find it very difficult to counter and react to two teams attacking from different sides. The two self-contained teams work well if facing a spike team of either Rangers or Elementalists. This is because spikers cannot be separated, since their firepower would not be able to take down their opponent if they were to split up.

Ive thought of this concept of splitting up groups and effectively harassing before (a popular tactic in other games like wcIII/tft etc) but Ive always thought that instead of going 'omfgwtfbbq' and collapsing, a good team of 8 that couldnt spilt up just wouldnt, and would play defensively.
Then, going on the counter attack style thing when they wiped out a team of 4 or the team of 8 (since I would say even if it is quite well styled a team of 8 is better than two teams of 4 that can work together)
Any thoughts on this? I know movement is getting a bigger part of strat in more and more games now, but surely a good team of 8 would brute force a win?
Any experience against any of these teams... Id like to know a bit about them, before pursuing the idea.

Too Hot Fo You · Dec 03, 2005, 12:46 PM // 12:46

I don't know, perhaps 2teams is not that bad.

Just have a look, actually you have 3monks, 5attackers.
Lets take Ranger Spike. A pure ranger spike could be done with 3rangersa

now take 2groups:
1monk, 3rangers

and you spike them from different sides. When one group has to retreat, the other group keeps firing at them.

so that you have:

attacked group: Move
safe group: backup fire

if you could play this very very well, you could perhaps do one flawless after the other, by just making it impossible for them to kill you, as their targeted ennemies (you), always move away.
Have a think about it.

mortalis doleo · Dec 03, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23

you forgot ranger spike needs orders...

Ventius Hozza · Dec 03, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I think they forgot that 1st) Sk could just swarm around the enemy party of 8 isntead of 2 seperate groups and 2nd) 4 men is a lot easier to beat than 8

I all in all choose to go for 8man strong teams.

Dmitri3 · Dec 03, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

After creating numerous builds (most of them haven't been tested lol

), for GvG builds I often use one principle: the build must be able to function in 4-4 formation AND in formation of 8 players as well.

This is all I can say

.
ADD: This is also what this guild is trying to say.

Patrograd · Dec 03, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

After creating numerous builds (most of them haven't been tested lol

), for GvG builds I often use one principle: the build must be able to function in 4-4 formation AND in formation of 8 players as well.

precisely

Any GvG build needs to operate as 2 units if required. It needs to be built into the build and agreed before the fight who is going with what group (if a split is needed) and what the roles of each group are.

It is very common in GvG to have to split into two groups for one reason or another, and countering gank squads is only one of them. Typically we will have built in one 'damage group' and one 'defence group'. Both groups need to be self-sufficient in healing and able to kill if need be - although our defence group will find it harder to kill enemies, they can at least prevent enemy kills, especially on key NPCs (bodyguards and such)

Ideally we want to operate as a team of 8, but if we need to split we can and still function perfectly well.

if for example you are facing a team that is just outdamaging you at the stand, then it kind of makes sense not to meet them head on again and again until you get beaten. Makes more sense to me to split into two squads and employ guerilla tactics, trying to make sure the enemy doesnt get a morale boost, trying to kill their runner if we find him alone, trying to kill as many NPCs as we can, and defend our own NPCs, hide the repair kits and so on - try to pull the enemy into positions they dont want to be, and ideally split them into two groups too. Just try and still function without meeting their full 8-man team head on. You'd be surprised how many teams it unsettles

Vermilion Okeanos · Dec 03, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Well, splitting up an evenly force is a very disadvantageous in terms of strategic thinking.

In a war,
a force that has 5x~10x the size can surround the smaller one
a force that has 2x~3x the size can flank the smaller one
a force that has the same size with another will fight evenly
(sun tze bin fa: art of war)

So flanking and surrounding in GW is obviously out of the question, as GW like to play "fair" (such thing do not exist in war). So in this instance, you will be better not to try splitting up your force at all. Retreating against something 2x your number is the best option.

However, there are quality and quantity. If all 8 of your guys are so great, they can take on 2~3 people on just by oneself alone... yea sure, eat your opponent alive already with all the fancy tricks you got @_@

You best variation to go from would be on either multi-target killing at once or focus on a single one.

GW have only few strategy, mostly tactic.

Strategy option are left as either "can I beat this opponent?" "what are the information on these guys?" "How well my build would put up against another build?"

While tactic revovles around everything from attacking from the back and moving, to changing target calling and more.
----------
So now we know all these... We know mobilities and player skill will play a huge role in your sucess, that means other than builds, you also need to train your group to play it. It will be a lengthy procedure that only dedicated can do.

You will want
speed debuff
speed buff
fast surprise spike damage
survivability
well trained troops
and hopfully, a dumb enough opponent.

I am assuming at this moment the best survivability is enchantment, and the moment your enchantment get remove, run like the wind.

If you are sucessful in seperating the opponent, your primary goal would be kill them fast and stop them from reaching each other. This game does not allow fake uniform and fake team chat, so this only make matter harder.

Know your opponent is a must to out smart them, you need to know how well they communicate and which of their member are most rash. Difficult information to come back I must say... but one should be able to distinguish a good player and bad in the first 30 sec of battle ( well, I think so @_@ don't know about you).

Lews · Dec 03, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

We run ranger spike and we can split up well.

We also fought a top 5 guild yesturday, and they split up alot

We managed to control the flag though, spliting ourselves up, and managing to kick them out of our base, and hold onto the flag stand.

Billiard · Dec 03, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Split squadding is works if your team communicates and moves well. One squad can draw the attention of the other team so that the other squad can accomplish some goal. The key though is for neither of the split squads to engage the entirity of the opposing team. To do this you must know when and how to quickly retreat, moving as a group and usings some delaying tactics (ward against foes, traps). As one squad retreats though, the other squad needs to be focused on some other goal, and moving decisively. If both your squads move well you can do a lot to the opposing team, even if you are out manned. Split squads work well against spiking builds if you can force them to split the spike.

In order to counter a team that is good at split squadding, you need to determine what their true objective is and not fall for feints and lures designed to draw your team away from it. You may split as well, or you can merely move your entire team quickly and decisively. Where you run into trouble is when you don't know for sure where you want to go, and you either arrive too late or get strung out and picked off.

As was mentioned above, ever team going into a GvG should have a split squad plan so it can be quickly and easily enacted.

Vermilion Okeanos · Dec 04, 2005, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Flexibility and strength at the same is going to make your opponent go nuts =P

People also should look out for reversal. Always make sure that you can reach to important location asap, if things does happen.

Monitoring opponent location is a must

This is how the high end plays =/ Some real strategy and tactics (and guessing game).

Good luck, have fun.

Manfred · Dec 05, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

water ele/good ward ele ftw against splitting up.
ahah! our guerrila tactics make it hard to kill us... why aren't we moving anymore? Augh, the 8v4 ganking, it burns.