Curse

Eonwe · Nov 11, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Blessed Signet is very conditional. It's mediocore at best I would say, and certainly not the "most effiecient" energy gain spell. In order to gain that 15 energy you mentioned, you would have to be maintaining 5 enchantments, which means running at -1 pip energy regen, and for that 24 energy you mentioned, 8 enchantments, at -4 pips of energy regen. You have to ask yourself at that point, am I really managing my energy well by slapping myself in the face with negative pips of regen? You're also locking yourself into a specific style of play.

Also, once anyone realizes that you're running lifebonds (or whatever other enchantments you have in order to get a reasonable energy return from blessed signet) and just spamming blessed signet, they're going to interrupt that huge two second cast time and screw your day up, big time.

The best energy management skill for a monk at the moment would have to be Offering of Blood, hands down.

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 11, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

With Offering of Blood {E} being the best e. management skill...

Would we possibly start seeing ANYTHING to counter it? If not Scourge Sacrifice, then perhaps a Scourge Healing? [couple that with Lingering Curse and Defile Flesh... yowza...]

Also, OoB doesn't seem to be unconditional either. I think if you're hp and energy levels are below 10%, doesn't that mean you're pretty much toast if you use it? (which brings up the question, what the heck type of monk are you to let your hp dive to 10%?)

But yes, before E. Drain took the hit in recycle time [OWCH] it was a great elite.

Looking at this combo: Mo/N I can see some pretty brutal offensive / defensive capabilities going for it.

A prot Mo/N using Curses as a base to reduce enemy damage sounds great. Clobber some foes with Enfeeble/Enfeebling Blood or Shadow of Fear, use Plague Touch when you're conditioned if you have the hp/energy to spare, Offering of Blood needs blood magic though... Hmm, perhaps just OoB and Plague Touch?

Another question pops up:

N/Mo? go 16 Blood magic, 12 healing/prot, rest to soul reaping?

Then you're getting a LOT of energy for your 10% hp and can use said energy to pump out those heals. A hidden healer perhaps?

Phades · Nov 11, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

With Offering of Blood {E} being the best e. management skill...

Would we possibly start seeing ANYTHING to counter it? If not Scourge Sacrifice, then perhaps a Scourge Healing? [couple that with Lingering Curse and Defile Flesh... yowza...]

Also, OoB doesn't seem to be unconditional either. I think if you're hp and energy levels are below 10%, doesn't that mean you're pretty much toast if you use it? (which brings up the question, what the heck type of monk are you to let your hp dive to 10%?)

Not that this situation will ever come up really, but basically it would be treated like backfire can be. This is also assuming that a one time 20% life hit is harsh, the user of scourge has a high smiting allowing for a long duration, and they have no hex removal.

Hannibel · Nov 11, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

ViM on a monk is a very good idea, most good groups will bring in 2 trappers, and the players are easily being able to be trapped, +5energy +life for each condition is a good skill with only a small recharge time and it can't be intirrupted, even with a team using martyr it doesn't recharge right away.

Scourge gonna put in smiting for only taking out one player that, backfire would be much more useful than it, both are hexes and both can be removed

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 11, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

N/Mo? go 16 Blood magic, 12 healing/prot, rest to soul reaping?

Then you're getting a LOT of energy for your 10% hp and can use said energy to pump out those heals. A hidden healer perhaps?

Yes indeed you have a point; but who doesnt want there healer to double as a solo farmer alot of people farm...

Schorny · Nov 11, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannibel

ViM on a monk is a very good idea, most good groups will bring in 2 trappers, and the players are easily being able to be trapped,

You are so wrong...

But as was already said: in a condition heavy team, ViM monks are good - but the problem with ViM is: if it works, you have the best energy management on the planet, but it's easy to shutdown.

Indian · Nov 11, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

did we forget

Glyph Healers? (Mo/E)

a lotta energy saving right there

Patrograd · Nov 11, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian

did we forget

Glyph Healers? (Mo/E)

a lotta energy saving right there

i had a long play with the glyph renewal/divine spirit thing, and it has got quite alot going for it. Its big weakness though is to the oh so popular energy surge/drain/etc mesmers which are knocking about, as you always have to have that little pool of mana for the recharge of the glyph and spirit. Another drawback is that you have to cast those two at exactly the right moment or you lose full efficiency (you have to cast the glyph and the spirit before the old spirit runs out really). Thats two or three seconds when you arent healing, Alot can go wrong in that time

. it also involves the use of two skills for pure energy management, one of which is an elite, which is a little restrictive IMO.

i think that when it works its a great combo, you actually seem to gain energy as you cast, but it is so easily broken open by a mesmer its untrue

Phades · Nov 11, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

i had a long play with the glyph renewal/divine spirit thing, and it has got quite alot going for it. Its big weakness though is to the oh so popular energy surge/drain/etc mesmers which are knocking about, as you always have to have that little pool of mana for the recharge of the glyph and spirit. Another drawback is that you have to cast those two at exactly the right moment or you lose full efficiency (you have to cast the glyph and the spirit before the old spirit runs out really). Thats two or three seconds when you arent healing, Alot can go wrong in that time

. it also involves the use of two skills for pure energy management, one of which is an elite, which is a little restrictive IMO.

i think that when it works its a great combo, you actually seem to gain energy as you cast, but it is so easily broken open by a mesmer its untrue

It functions similar to a dual attunement ele, except that its renewable and caters to a much higher volume of spell use and gains energy opposed to operating at a near insignifigant loss.

Ollj · Nov 11, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

if you have one trapper and you can prevent the opponent from using martyr "Victory is mine" is nice for one of 2 healing monks.

NEVER use more than one "victory is mine" monk because a single martyr makes it pretty much useless.

Actually "vicroty is mine" on primary monks is way too risky, there are better alternatives. For example, ANY "ether renewal" secondary monk is generaly better than a VIM monk.

Rey Lentless · Nov 11, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

There's a lot of options, and I don't think there's a clearly superior way of doing it.

Offering of blood gives good energy, only requires 1 skill, is quick, and let's you focus on your healing more than most energy management tools. It operates well under qz as well. Since it's a quick cast, diversion can sneak in. Humility is popular and can leave you with no other energy management, unlike inspiration.

VIM. Ultimately the most powerful of the energy management skills, but easier to shut down than most energy management skills. Also requires a heavy commitment from the build. I find trap builds slow and annoying and don't care for them much.

Mantra of Recall. I don't think this belongs on monks at all personally. Primary mesmers can get some use out of it, they rarely need an energy management elite to support what they're doing.

Non-elite inspiration. I think this is the safest and most effective most of the time. Channelling can give elite like energy, and power drain, drain enchantment, and inspired hex can all supply energy while giving a beneficial second effect. Positives: Doesn't give up an elite, doesn't require a specific build, isn't effected by humility, can bring multiple energy management skills making it harder to shut down.

Dual Glyph. Usually on the secondary heal monk and best used with qz, this can be extremely useful for heal party, convert, aegis, and the like. It doesn't require attribute points, and if your team has communication issues or lag, it works well because you can cancel casts and not lose energy (using a glyph and then a 15 skill, you can cancel and start again without penalty). Humility can hurt it, and won't do a whole lot for a primary healer.

Divine + Renewal. I like this setup a lot, but it does use up two skills for essentially one purpose. If either of those are shut down, it makes both of them subpar skills, so things like diversion and humility can hurt. Doesn't require attribute points, and useful for the primary healer. There is a period of downtime every 15 secs or so, but that's similiar to someone using a seed, aegis, heal party, convert, etc.. so I don't consider that a real negative. This isn't as good in qz.

Summary. I'd use oob on primary heal monks under qz. ViM in well built trap groups. Dual glyph on secondary heal monks under qz. Divine + renewal on non-qz heal monks. Inspiration if you need an elite, don't want to suffer from humility, and are comfortable paying adequate attention to the field to get use out of the skills.

rii · Nov 11, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

As rey said, I use inspiration mainly since if i run into a man with signet of humility who knows what he's doing (like a mirror of me) then Im really really screwed. At least inspiration would allow me to run at a level for a while, whereas oob is just... screwed (matching downtimes and having two copies for the cynics among you). If your against warrior assist then scourge sacrifice is an easily incorporated skill also, since your often running a smiter buffer, who has smiting and spare skill slots. Im beginning to value it a little since it goes in so easily in some builds and can destroy one or two basic energy management skills (bip and oob). Oob, if say... non elite -.-, would be my first choice. Since its possible to pick it out and disable I find your asking it from a decent team.

Moskel · Nov 11, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

With Offering of Blood {E} being the best e. management skill...

Would we possibly start seeing ANYTHING to counter it? If not Scourge Sacrifice, then perhaps a Scourge Healing? [couple that with Lingering Curse and Defile Flesh... yowza...]

Energy Burn/Surge followed by Signet of Humility.

Quote:

Another question pops up:

N/Mo? go 16 Blood magic, 12 healing/prot, rest to soul reaping?

Then you're getting a LOT of energy for your 10% hp and can use said energy to pump out those heals. A hidden healer perhaps?

You're better off doing N/Mo protection as you don't need super high protection for the prot skills to work good and the Divine Favor bonus doesn't mean as much either. I'd stop at 14 Blood though unless you're an offensive character with a couple of 'extra' backup heals for a 2 monk team.

Patrograd · Nov 11, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

You're better off doing N/Mo protection as you don't need super high protection for the prot skills to work good and the Divine Favor bonus doesn't mean as much either. I'd stop at 14 Blood though unless you're an offensive character with a couple of 'extra' backup heals for a 2 monk team.

I do like a N/Mo protector. Put your soul reaping at 10+ and you'll be surprised at the energy gain. Its conditional, yes, but it requires no skill slots at all, and thats always a big plus.

Havent used this in GvG yet, but my experiments in tombs and arenas seem to show that a N/Mo prot is a very viable proposition, and may allow the two skills which are usually used for energy gain to be used offensively (putrid, well of profane with careful selection)

Zhou Feng · Nov 12, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Still no one metions THE most effecient energy gain spell....Blessed Sig. *Sigh* one day people will learn. An easy 15-24 energy gain every 12 seconds (recharge + casting time) is much better than any option out there and doesn't rely on 2nd class.

OoB since the update is far more superior at energy gain then any other skill... by itself. However notice that it would be the only good energy managing skill you will find in the N department.

So why do I still prefer mo/me? The inspiration line grants me a lot of versatile tools to adapt my energy management. For example MoR coupled with Divine Boon and CoP to remove hexes quickly while gaining energy in a prot build. Or perhaps energy drain and inspired hex along with holy veil and a repertoire of raw healing like seed and other. Or maybe Word of Healing coupled with other energy management from the inspiration line like Ins Hex and Channeling.

Yes OoB is far superior but energy management is much more versatile coming from the mes department then from the necro department. Heck I even make use of spirit of failure and midnight signet in arenas for anti warrior purposes (note: conditional energy management) or spirit of failure in my prot builds.

What Im trying to say is that perhaps OoB might have the upper hand but the versatility of the inspiration line still wins me over, come on inspired hex gaining energy AND removing hex, plus if by any reason you miss ins hex it recharges almost instantly compared to smite hex and remove hex? That beats OoB in my book even though OoB is far "better" any day of the week.

Hannibel · Nov 12, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

easy to shutdown, you actually think a monk is gonna stop to martyr you when someone is attacking them, people think that vim monks are easy to shutdown, most players(even the good ones) will run through traps without knowing it, trappers don't go around luring people they lay traps where everyone is attacking.

Zeru · Nov 12, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

it may be surprising to most people but protection spells benefit more from divine favor than healing spells do, partially because you want healing very high and protection does not need to be at 14 or 16. Prot spells are generally more spammable, whereas the spammable healing skills are just so bad you don't want to use them in most cases.

ViM monks are wierd. They have an amazing energy engine if things work out but if they ViM misses once or twice things are really going to go bad for them fast. In tombs we have single handedly changed the outcome of matches by moving to a more open battlefield location versus trap/vim teams (traps hitting less and vim hitting less). In gvg ViM is garbage unless enemy teams have 0 condition removal and your monks can afford to play in their face which is a very very rare time. There are going to be times when ViM won't hit twice in a row for enough and since warrior secondary has terrible energy management otherwise you are pretty much going to be useless for a fair amount of time.

JR · Nov 19, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

I run OoB on my Boon Prot, and Word on my Healer. There is no real elite prot skill I find viable to fit a Boon Prot build, especially if I had drop OoB in favour of it. Word is an awesome elite, quite simply because its low cost and spammable. To compliment my Healer, I do run drain enchantment or inspired hex occasionally, but I normally find with efficient healing that Word is enough.

Channeling is absolute trash in my opinion, in anything but tombs altar maps where you don't have any kind of real formation. Even then it's pretty weak. The only two other skills I would consider taking as Mo/Me for energy management are Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment. Neither of which are amazing.

OoB is great, if you know how to use it. Don't wait for your energy to hit 5 before casting it, use it to keep your energy constantly within about 5 of max. The sacraficing is trivial, I use it even when I'm taking hits.

ViM isn't terrible if you run a very condition heavy build, and have a mes with Signet of Humility, but it's conditional, and I am not a fan of running anything that can't allways be relied on.

a cadet · Nov 20, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I agree with just about everyone here - OoB is clearly the most efficient energy management skill available. However, alot of the time i need the elite slot for something else. (True much more in tombs than anywhere else - SpellBreaker, WoH, Restore Condition, etc).

If you used up your elite on something, you dont have much of a choice for energy. You have to go /me for things like channeling and inspired hex, drain enchantment, whatever. Whenever i took power drain it was a dead slot, if i had the time to camp someone with it then i was just regening energy; if i had 5 energy and needed a quick boost it did me no good since i had to find someone - usually a fire elementalist - to use it on, and by the time i used it i had enough energy to go without it.

I experimented alot with Drain Enchantment, and maybe i didnt use it right, but it seemed that each time i needed energy i had less than 10 energy, and each time i regened to 10 energy, i felt like the energy i got from it was just extra - nothing i really needed. I keep returning to it because i feel like i didnt use it right, but each time it disapoints. Im not sure what im doing wrong here.

Channeling, in tombs, is wonderfull. I use it all the time and its really a great form of energy management.

One option people have overlooked (maybe, sorry if i didnt notice that you mentioned it) is glyph of lesser energy. I played a prot monk, using that glyph as my only energy management. Big surprise, but it was fine. I used it primarily on aegis, or if it was a really tight moment i would use it on protective spirit. This glyph works especially great in tombs with all the morale boosts - more than once i had a lucky morale boost and was able to save my energy with a quick recharge on the glyph. I honestly dont really know why it worked so well for me, the numbers come out to something like 10 energy every 30 seconds, but it was just excellant. Something to consider beyond the standard /me energy management.

Schorny · Nov 20, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

I I experimented alot with Drain Enchantment, and maybe i didnt use it right, but it seemed that each time i needed energy i had less than 10 energy, and each time i regened to 10 energy, i felt like the energy i got from it was just extra - nothing i really needed.

use a weapon set with +15 energy and -1 energy regen for switching, casting drain enchantment, switching back. so you always have the needed 10 energy for drain enchantment.