Curse

Trinity_PoS · Dec 20, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Ok, you could surge their monks then spike another target, but that is a waste of an elite when you could do the same thing with gale. And good teams will have removed Surge before it goes off preventing the knockdown.

Dmitri3 · Dec 20, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity_PoS

Ok, you could surge their monks then spike another target, but that is a waste of an elite when you could do the same thing with gale. And good teams will have removed Surge before it goes off preventing the knockdown.

Protective Spirit have recharge time of 5 seconds... most damage oriented builds only use 2 monks, one prot - one healer.
Is this telling you nothing?

Blaine Derrick · Dec 20, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

"Fake" a target with Lightning Surge before spiking a real target? Or maybe anticipate the prot spirit and turn it against them with a shatter enchantment? Whenever we face Rus Corps they seem to have many different ways to spike out a target, so I could see a team using Lightning Surge as a diversion to mix up their spike patterns. Of course, this would require very good caller and top notch comunication, not something that every guild/PUG group would be able to pull off...

a cadet · Dec 20, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

FoC spikes wont kill 2 targets, i believe the skill description reads something like "do X damage to target, steal Y health from nearby enemies" - or something equivalent. Basically, you dont do the full aoe damage, and i doubt you could fell two targets at once.

The FoC spike is somewhat related to the Lightning Surge spike in that they both require a hex to be on the target for 2-3 seconds before the damage comes. I played against both teams - one using surge and one with FoC, in both it was quite obvious who was the target 2 seconds before the spike, and we could save most people by simply having them yell out "3 is the target", Putting up Prot Spirit and Reversal basically meant the spike did not work.

Quote:

most damage oriented builds only use 2 monks, one prot - one healer.

Not to my knowledge, no. Most Tombs builds have 3 monks. If you are reffering to GvG you may be right, im too busy playing in Tombs to know whats cooking in GvG.

In summary, i dont think a viable spike exists that can regularly kill 2 targets at once. I also dont think using hexes like Lightning Surge can work well because it tells the opponent who will get spiked. And with the exception of Ranger Spikes, it is almost impossible to spike a target with Protective Spirit on.

Quote:

Protective Spirit have recharge time of 5 seconds

So does Lightning Orb, now that i think about it

super dooper · Dec 20, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

FoC spikes wont kill 2 targets, i believe the skill description reads something like "do X damage to target, steal Y health from nearby enemies" - or something equivalent. Basically, you dont do the full aoe damage, and i doubt you could fell two targets at once.

it does full aoe damage, the health stolen is from each person in the aoe that is hexed. you can drop a whole IWAY team if they all crowd around. excluding the necros and whatever other caster they may have of course..

angshuman · Dec 20, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

So does Lightning Orb, now that i think about it

I think the point of the previous poster was that you typically have 1 prot monk in your team with a 5-sec recharge Protective Spirit, but you will definitely have multiple Air Eles in a Surge/Orb spike team. Plus, there's Arcane Echo...

twicky_kid · Dec 21, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity_PoS

Lightning Surge is not a good elite to bring for one reason, it tips off the monks on who is going to get spiked. Then they just throw on prot spirit or spell breaker and it ruins the whole spike.

I'm not a real fan of Lightning surge because Mind shock does basically the same thing, knocks down the target but hits for about 100-110. It does cause exhaustion but that is managable. And with deep wound 3 lightning orbs or Mind Shocks can easily drop a target.

look at all hex removal. the fastest casting is 1 second but the enchantment has to be canceled to remove the hex which will take 1-2 seconds if you are lightning fast now figure in lag and most likely it will not be removed before it ends by the fastest casting hex removal. it only gets worse from there.

remove hex is 2 second casting and if they are spamming spells the after cast of .75+2 casting will make it very difficult to remove surge before it fires off.

mind shock is no where even close to surge dmg wise. i can't have my mind shock and my orb hit the same target at the same time.

surge .75 aftercast>orb 2 second>orb flying through air surge ends knocks target down>orb nails them a split second later

you can't do that with mind shock. it does tip off the monks that is true but don't think for a second that mind shock can do the same job because really there is no comparison dmg wise.

best use of spikers i have seen is from balanced groups. if 1 ele uses surge then you effectly have 3 spikers. add lingering, parastic bond, malaise, faintheartedness, conjure, pp, and ect. i usually run 2-3 air spikers so they can take down a target with very little help from allies.

Dmitri3 · Dec 21, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaine Derrick

Whenever we face Rus Corps they seem to have many different ways to spike out a target, so I could see a team using Lightning Surge as a diversion to mix up their spike patterns. Of course, this would require very good caller and top notch comunication, not something that every guild/PUG group would be able to pull off...

Sure they do... 3 of their top spikers play at the same club, so even if TS turns down - spike can still work

Btw, if we're talking about AoE spike now... Look at this: Signet of Judgment, 79 holy damage...
Too bad you need 6 smiting monks for this to work

.

Trinity_PoS · Dec 21, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

look at all hex removal. the fastest casting is 1 second but the enchantment has to be canceled to remove the hex which will take 1-2 seconds if you are lightning fast now figure in lag and most likely it will not be removed before it ends by the fastest casting hex removal. it only gets worse from there..

I play monk for my guild, it's very easy to remove a surge with inspired or smite hex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

mind shock is no where even close to surge dmg wise. i can't have my mind shock and my orb hit the same target at the same time

surge .75 aftercast>orb 2 second>orb flying through air surge ends knocks target down>orb nails them a split second later

you can't do that with mind shock. it does tip off the monks that is true but don't think for a second that mind shock can do the same job because really there is no comparison dmg wise..

Deep Wound + 3 Mind Shocks or Orbs, nobody is going to live through that, and if they do quick follow up with strike. I'm a monk, against spike team if I see purple down arrow, instantly Prot spirit and reversal on him. Shatter Enchant may be good, yes, but remember its a 30 sec recharge. Not too reliable.

SilenceWeaver · Dec 21, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

two things that are nice to have in an air spike build are:
a. a fast cast air mesmer with shatter and drain
b. a warrior with crystal wave and aftershock (call gale, war chains CW+AS)

a cadet · Dec 21, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

look at all hex removal. the fastest casting is 1 second but the enchantment has to be canceled to remove the hex which will take 1-2 seconds if you are lightning fast now figure in lag and most likely it will not be removed before it ends by the fastest casting hex removal. it only gets worse from there.

I have to disagree completely on this. You are right that it is a 1 second cast, but i highly doubt it will take you two full seconds to click on the player with the purple arrow and hit the corresponding shortcut for hex removal. If you are talking about Holy Veil when you mention canceling the enchantment, as a monk whenever i cast that i always just spam-click the area where the icon shows up, so that the instant it goes up it gets canceled.

No one uses Remove Hex anymore for exactly that reason, you cant remove any hexes before they are covered (or time out, in the case of Lightning Surge).

Quote:

Btw, if we're talking about AoE spike now... Look at this: Signet of Judgment, 79 holy damage...
Too bad you need 6 smiting monks for this to work .

I was about to mention that, actually

The reasons this wont work is because you need so many monks for a spike, and on top of that the recharge on Signet of Judgement is terrible, meaning you have to use Mantra of Inscriptions and/or QZ if you plan on spiking more than once a minute... which means you cant use Mantra of Resolve... etc.

As to 'half spiking' other targets before you do a real spike, hey, thats beyond my scope really. Im sure you could probably do something like put Lightning Surge on 2 monks and then do a Lightning Orb spike on another person, but chances are if you can coordinate that well you wont need to do that (in tombs at least).

Quote:

I think the point of the previous poster was that you typically have 1 prot monk in your team with a 5-sec recharge Protective Spirit, but you will definitely have multiple Air Eles in a Surge/Orb spike team. Plus, there's Arcane Echo...

Multiple Air elementalists which spike the same target, so if they spike every 5 seconds you are at least theoretically able to put Protective Spirit on everyone they spike. And to be honest, ive never seen a spike team Arcane Echo something like Lightning Orb, but perhaps it may work.

Sephir Demange · Dec 21, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

1 thing that seems to be prevelant in this thread is that you need to take up 5 slots for spikers. Having only 2 monks in tombs can lead to several complications on non-deathmatch maps, like relic runs and especially alters. I've seen a HIGHLY effective spike using 3 spikers, 2 pressure damage characters, and the standard 3 monk backline. When properly timed, with correctly applied conditions you can spike with a bare minimum of people. In fact, I prefer spread pressure damage with a spike, because against most favored spikes right now the prot monk keeps the infuser protted, the infuser catches as many spikes as he can while the damage dealers drop target after target. Pressuring an infuser to cast standard heals keeps them from concentrating solely on catching a spike, thus making it MUCH harder to combat, and also, having 2 damage dealers that are not at all involved in the spike allows for "spirit watchers" to constantly take down spirits and harass the person dropping them. Just my opinion.

Zeru · Dec 21, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephir Demange

1 thing that seems to be prevelant in this thread is that you need to take up 5 slots for spikers. Having only 2 monks in tombs can lead to several complications on non-deathmatch maps, like relic runs and especially alters. I've seen a HIGHLY effective spike using 3 spikers, 2 pressure damage characters, and the standard 3 monk backline. When properly timed, with correctly applied conditions you can spike with a bare minimum of people. In fact, I prefer spread pressure damage with a spike, because against most favored spikes right now the prot monk keeps the infuser protted, the infuser catches as many spikes as he can while the damage dealers drop target after target. Pressuring an infuser to cast standard heals keeps them from concentrating solely on catching a spike, thus making it MUCH harder to combat, and also, having 2 damage dealers that are not at all involved in the spike allows for "spirit watchers" to constantly take down spirits and harass the person dropping them. Just my opinion.

You're right that a build with constant dps and a solid spike is going to be stronger overall than an instant kill spike build, online at least. A pity that more people don't realize this.

From a monks point of view stopping the very popular 5 man ele spike with phantom pain/shatter delusions is very easy compared to a build like you described because it's much harder to read the enemy than in a pure spike build and monks can't spend all their time watching for the next spike. Putting dps pressure in there forces monks to react and makes their job far harder. A good example of this is Te's GOTW build or a regular korean style 2 warrior 2 ele build. Monking against those offenses was far harder than monking against all the other top teams who used pure caster/ranger spike because you have to concentrate on so much more and there's lots of room to make mistakes.

I don't know what this is about keeping an infuser protted though. There should almost never be a need for that. Against pure spike teams, he's never going to be in danger unless you have a neutralized or horribly weak offense and against warrior teams you really need top top level coordination and battlefield control to be able to hurt an infuse healer that understands positioning (something a very small number of teams can do consistently).

SaintGreg · Dec 21, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

DPS spike is defienitely harder as a monk to play against, although it would make more sense to try to make all your damage dealers capable of both dps, and be able to participate in a spike with a big spell/attack, trying to have deticated spikers and deticated dps'ers leaves your dps lacking a bit.

Quote:

Against pure spike teams, he's never going to be in danger

Not true, after about one or two failed spikes because of a well timed infuse, the infuser will be the target, and he will go down as there is nobody to infuse you back (unless you carry two infuses or can otherwise prevent the spike). Don't know how well keeping him protted would work against enchantment removal though...

leeky baby · Dec 21, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

played agaist that think it was abotu a 20 second lost 2 fire nukers a spitful -what can i say also the ball wasnt to gd to begin with lol

Ristaron · Dec 21, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

"Lightning Surge is not a good elite to bring for one reason, it tips off the monks on who is going to get spiked. Then they just throw on prot spirit or spell breaker and it ruins the whole spike."

One word - lol.

You guys don't have any sense of strategy, do you?

You are either very smart or very stupid to mention this.
I'll go with you being very smart and agree, explaining what you meant without the holier-than-thou attitude.

Lightning Surge, if cast almost exactly before the moment the rest of the spikes hit, will not give away who is the target until it is too late. Though exceedingly difficult to time, theoretically the team could cast the surge and hit the target with the spikes before the poor soul can think of his mother's maiden name.
Casting Surge too early will knock down the target (tipping off the monks) early enough that they can get a prot spirit slapped on them, but when done almost at the same time there is no way anybody has the reflexes to counter the spike.

Blaine Derrick · Dec 21, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

You are either very smart or very stupid to mention this.
I'll go with you being very smart and agree, explaining what you meant without the holier-than-thou attitude.

Lightning Surge, if cast almost exactly before the moment the rest of the spikes hit, will not give away who is the target until it is too late. Though exceedingly difficult to time, theoretically the team could cast the surge and hit the target with the spikes before the poor soul can think of his mother's maiden name.
Casting Surge too early will knock down the target (tipping off the monks) early enough that they can get a prot spirit slapped on them, but when done almost at the same time there is no way anybody has the reflexes to counter the spike.

Before you accuse others of being holier-than-thou, you might want to actually know what you are talking about.

Ristaron · Dec 22, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaine Derrick

Before you accuse others of being holier-than-thou, you might want to actually know what you are talking about.

I'm talking about this:

Lightning Surge {Elite} - Hex Spell
After 3 seconds, target foe is knocked down and struck for 14-83 lightning damage. This Spell causes Exhaustion.

Cast too early, it tips off who is the target.

Please, do fornicate yourself with a plastic stick before claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. It will clear your mind of other distractions and give you an objective look at what I'm saying - which is 99.99% of the time correct.
Thanks.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 22, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Use Orb + spike or Mind shock + strike if needed.

no more lightning surge

Now go sit in a corner

Ristaron · Dec 22, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Use Orb + spike or Mind shock + strike if needed.

no more lightning surge

Now go sit in a corner

Yes, Mom.

And for the record: I wasn't arguing for Lightning Surge, I was rather explaining what the person had spoken about like it was obvious to every single person in the world.
Mind shock is superior, and the best choice even though it is yet another slot that deals out exhaustion.