Curse

SirJackassIII · Jan 10, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

In PVE, you already have prettiest armors/weapons/colors you don't have in PVP. SIncerely, PVP is nothing but only about skill.

Yes and you know what? Only PVE grinders act like this. They want to "farm" fame as they "farm" gold/items/xp. Using IWAY or whatever.
Most PVP-only oriented players play for fun and to learn more and more. They don't care about winning and loosing when they do PUGs. PUGS for PVP is the worst way anyway to win something, most PUGs are made by PVE fame farmers.
If PVP players want to win, you know what? They call their guildies and take sometimes several hours to build a strategy and test it/mod it if necessary.
They don't loose their time trying to apply their strategy with random PVE players LFG in Tombs who are probably not willing to change their build or create a specific PVP character.
As all PVP players do when it comes to teamplay: they don't use their PVE character, they create specifically a PVP character that will fit with the team strategy. They think "what character/build will fit to this team strategy?" and not as many PVE players "what group will fit my character?".
Personnally, as many, I began with PVE characters. I refused, like many, to change my PVE builds to fit team strategy. "Lingering curse? Bleh, this is a noob Elite skill. And Curses suck, sorry". I lost. And took lessons. I understand, I think, the two mindsets, the PVE one who wants to be a virtual hero, with best items/gold/coolest stylest armor, and the PVP one, where beauty is not the point, only efficiency and skill is.

It seems to me you don't know what is the PVP community. You confuse PVE fame grinders with harcore PVP players. Sorry.

I also understand the view from both points, playing PvE and PvP (PvE more though) but there are some mistakes I see in that text.
PvE: looks - right
PvP: skills -right
Rerollong your character to fit the team build - right
Fame grinders =/= hardcore PvP players... - wrong, it's both. Both sides are as bad and both are to blaim.

The mistakes I refer to are not necessarily from you, you are right, but from the whole PvP community. If the PvP players don't join PUGs seriously, who's there to help the beginners? Surely one can not expect the PvE players to teach them? This however, is sadly true, which causes elitism amongst those PvP players. I'm fairly experienced, and worked rather hard on getting a Deer (not IWAY, balanced builds), when it ment something (one month later shattered by IWAY -.-" ), when you needed a good build to manage to win in Tombs. I must say, that in all the time of trying to get to that deer, I didn't see a single experienced PvP player in my teams. We all started from scrap. I was using a PvE character (God forbit) with collector's weapons (looks, yes. Grind, no) and maxed/semi-maxed mods.
The fact that so little PvP players help the newbies is saddening. And even if a Guild group only consisted of 6-7 players and they needed an extra that exactly fit my build, guess what their question was when I asked them to join? Rank is probably the worst thing in GW, since it splits up the community into "noobs" and "1337". I ask you now, after IWAY, Spirit Spam, all different Ranger Spikes, Air Spike, Dual Smiting and all other builds that have been nerfed due to being "overpowered" or "hard to stop by new groups", which player now dares to say Rank = Skill? At the moment, it requires you to have a minimum of R6, or 1000 fame. How is a new player going to get that? Easiest way: PvP oriented Guild, and we all know those grow on trees -.-"
Second easiest way: IWAY. The right way, the wrong way, and the IWAY (wrong way, only faster). Right way is balanced groups, whom want R6, so right way is a no go. Wrong way is going into so called balanced groups where the leader is incompetent, you all have different skillbars that don't help each other, and lose to the first team you meet after several left because you don't have enough Morale boost.
So, fame means nothing, what else is there? Unlocks. Grindable. Period.
PvE players grind them, PvP players grind them. Grind (again) =/= skill.
The only way for the PvP community to grow, is to join low ranked PUGs, teaching them how it's done, organising them and making sure they know the basics. Can it be done by anyone? No, some people are sadly too elitist and can't be bothered to. Other may feel like doing it, but may get angry when their first group screws up. Due to this, I fear the PvP community is growing slower and slower, while more and more people leave faster and faster, which results into PvP running low on experienced characters and cheap builds like IWAY being the only ones ran, while the balanced builds" contain ways to stop them. At this rate, the PvP community will be gone before the PvE community. After all, the PvE'ers come to grind fame afterwards, right?

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Yes, PvE is faster for unlocking common skills, but faction is exponentially faster for unlocking elite skills, superior runes, and final weapon upgrades. Balance.

Not true for most Elites, feast of coruption and random boss spawns are the only ones that take time. Super Runes are just a matter of luck and saying its exponentially longer with out backing it up is very misleading. Exponentially can be a very very very very very very very big number and you just don't go throwing the term around, unless your argument is weak and you are bluffing your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Partially right and mostly wrong. Game mechanics have much to do with how fun a game is, but even after Celestial Sigils have lost their appeal, Tombs still bustles with players clamoring for a) Fame, and b) Glory, neither of which are irrelevant.

tombs hasen't bustled in a long time... its about 30% as active as it used to be if you guage it by distrists. American Tombs was at 9-12 districts 24/7 and now your lucky to have 3-4. People stopped PvP much because of unlocks and skill ballance problems. This threads about bringing players back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I've played sports for awhile, but -that- is irrelevant. A new goalkeeper thrown against professional talent will get smoked over and over and over, and he will progress much more slowly than a classically trained keeper. Likewise, a player grabbing a plethora of skills he's never worked with and just attempting to make something useful, won't. This is why Paladins were the common PvP warrior at day 1 and Shock Warriors are the common PvP warrior today. As time has progressed and people worked with the skills that came available to them, they advanced their builds and their tactics. Oh, and at no point did I ever say that people are incapable of learning unless they play PvE. Whatever, indeed.

whatever your self... Soccer at a pro level has no relevant comparison to a video game. Pro soccer players pratice hours and hours every day for there whole life playing goalie, its beyond stupid to think you could take a striker and place him in net. Guildwars is a game, instead of years it takes a couple hundered hours to master. If some one is good at interupt ranger ZOMG they are also good at mesmer...If you can air spike you can ranger spike or addrenal spike with very little pratice. Monking not as hard as you think fo some one whos good at games. I have a hard time taking you serious if you insist on compairing a life time effort in pro soccer to a kid playing guildwars after school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I agree completely with the bold-faced portion. However, everything after that is unapplicable, as a veteran player still has no experience playing as or against the new classes.

lol ok man the world dosent revole around you and you arn't the gold standard in guildwars tallent. Sorry you can't learn from watching and playing aginst others, most of us can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Whether or not players had a choice doesn't change the fact that those players did, in fact, play PvE. And those players trained the next crop, who trained the next crop.

I am one of "thouse players" you hold in such high regard, but I want UAS so I can enjoy chapter 2, because I am sick of the way it is now and so are alot of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I respect your ability to confront your debate thoughtfully and with concise English and understandable grammar. That's a rarity.)

/rollyeyes As if it matters? This is a forum. All the good grammer in the world dosen't make a argument correct as demonstrated in your posts.

I am still waiting for a solid argument aginst UAS.

Akathrielah · Jan 10, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

The mistakes I refer to are not necessarily from you, you are right, but from the whole PvP community. If the PvP players don't join PUGs seriously, who's there to help the beginners?

Themselves. I'm not sure about others, but I learned how to play in different roles through practice and experience. Simple as that; no one was around to give me tips or hold my hand, sure the few insightful posts made by the folks at the top of the game helps a lot, but more often than not its just a lot of practice mixed experience that is acquired over playing several games. You have to be able to keep an open mind and use your head.

To give an example my first PvP experience with the warrior class was (unfortunately) the paladin pre-made, the first thought to come my mind after a few games was "gee mending and healing breeze isn't keeping me alive very well (against anyone that could actually deal damage), why don't I try concentrating on damage and stop worrying about healing, since I can't do it very well anyway?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Surely one can not expect the PvE players to teach them? This however, is sadly true, which causes elitism amongst those PvP players.

Eh? How is expecting PvE players to teach beginners lead to elitism among PvPers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

I'm fairly experienced, and worked rather hard on getting a Deer (not IWAY, balanced builds), when it ment something (one month later shattered by IWAY -.-" ), when you needed a good build to manage to win in Tombs. I must say, that in all the time of trying to get to that deer, I didn't see a single experienced PvP player in my teams. We all started from scrap. I was using a PvE character (God forbit) with collector's weapons (looks, yes. Grind, no) and maxed/semi-maxed mods.

Which was how many PvPers had to start out as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

The fact that so little PvP players help the newbies is saddening. And even if a Guild group only consisted of 6-7 players and they needed an extra that exactly fit my build, guess what their question was when I asked them to join?

Cause people want to be ensured that they have a player who at the very least has some idea what they are doing? Who wants to spend an hour getting a group together only to find out that their pick up monk doesn't know how to heal properly? That their elementalist doesn't know when to use his skills? That their warrior brought berserker stance instead of frenzy "cuz itz betta"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Rank is probably the worst thing in GW, since it splits up the community into "noobs" and "1337". I ask you now, after IWAY, Spirit Spam, all different Ranger Spikes, Air Spike, Dual Smiting and all other builds that have been nerfed due to being "overpowered" or "hard to stop by new groups", which player now dares to say Rank = Skill?

Those who earned the majority of their fame via gimmick builds tend to be passed up when the group is looking for a pick up. You find out very quickly if that r3/6/9 player doesn't have the slightest clue what they doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

At the moment, it requires you to have a minimum of R6, or 1000 fame. How is a new player going to get that? Easiest way: PvP oriented Guild, and we all know those grow on trees -.-"
Second easiest way: IWAY. The right way, the wrong way, and the IWAY (wrong way, only faster). Right way is balanced groups, whom want R6, so right way is a no go. Wrong way is going into so called balanced groups where the leader is incompetent, you all have different skillbars that don't help each other, and lose to the first team you meet after several left because you don't have enough Morale boost.
So, fame means nothing, what else is there? Unlocks. Grindable. Period.
PvE players grind them, PvP players grind them. Grind (again) =/= skill.
The only way for the PvP community to grow, is to join low ranked PUGs, teaching them how it's done, organising them and making sure they know the basics. Can it be done by anyone? No, some people are sadly too elitist and can't be bothered to. Other may feel like doing it, but may get angry when their first group screws up. Due to this, I fear the PvP community is growing slower and slower, while more and more people leave faster and faster, which results into PvP running low on experienced characters and cheap builds like IWAY being the only ones ran, while the balanced builds" contain ways to stop them. At this rate, the PvP community will be gone before the PvE community. After all, the PvE'ers come to grind fame afterwards, right?

The community would die sooner if the majority was filled with a bunch of spoiled children who expect their hand to be held than a bunch of mean ole elitest, sadly, I believe this to be the actual case.

crimsonfilms · Jan 10, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Yes, PvE is faster for unlocking common skills, but faction is exponentially faster for unlocking elite skills, superior runes, and final weapon upgrades. Balance.

This is actually not true. You can blow through the game for basic skills one day and spend another day to get elites.
Superiors/mods can be farmed or bought and naturally gathered from runs and missions.

It takes MUCH longer to unlock anything with faction. Create 3 characters and you can unlock 80-90 of the game in 2-3 weeks with decent gaming hours. Not to mention you can use current characters extra skill points to unlock more skills and cap elites.

Try doing that with faction and it will take you several months. The fastest way to gain faction is holding Tombs or winning GvG. Either is extremely difficult and can actually take longer (like 45 min GvG battle)

I am sorry you are extremely mistaken about this comment.

Phades · Jan 11, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Yes, PvE is faster for unlocking common skills, but faction is exponentially faster for unlocking elite skills, superior runes, and final weapon upgrades. Balance.

Only if you played through pve thoroughly to get the previous unlocks out of the way in order to take out the randomness between the two. The parity of relative balance for aquisition one at a time is not the issue. Its the accrual of things enmass which will be/is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Partially right and mostly wrong. Game mechanics have much to do with how fun a game is, but even after Celestial Sigils have lost their appeal, Tombs still bustles with players clamoring for a) Fame, and b) Glory, neither of which are irrelevant.

Actually both are irrelevant as their time would have been better spent in GvG going for real fame and glory going to the top of the gvg ladder in order to compete in the world championship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I've played sports for awhile, but -that- is irrelevant. A new goalkeeper thrown against professional talent will get smoked over and over and over, and he will progress much more slowly than a classically trained keeper.

I already stated that someone new to the game will take longer to grasp things than someone who is a veteren of the game. If you have played sports for awhile then you wouldn't have brought this up as players are at times required to cover other positions in different sporting events and they tend to not remarkably suck at it when they do so. They might not be as good as the person normally covering the position, but they do not just simply suck because they havent been trained. Also training in a virutal world such as GW has very little to do with the training needed in the real world when adapting to situations that need proper "training".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Likewise, a player grabbing a plethora of skills he's never worked with and just attempting to make something useful, won't. This is why Paladins were the common PvP warrior at day 1 and Shock Warriors are the common PvP warrior today.

More like people read forums and copy builds. You are grossly overestimating the ability to come to similar conclusions over time. There was a debate regarding warriors using gale and shock about 6 months ago in the pvp forums here, where the majority of the people at the time were stating that warriors should not use them or that they havent seen them. Obviously there were those that figured it out long before other people because they had the skill sets available to try out the combination. The gale/shock warrrior also is generally crap in pve anyway, while amazingly enough the paladin/tank is rather useable in pve. I do not think that this is a coincidence as new people to pvp try to use the tired and true pve methods and get laughed at and crushed in real pvp. Forcing people to learn things the wrong way first does not help anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I agree completely with the bold-faced portion. However, everything after that is unapplicable, as a veteran player still has no experience playing as or against the new classes.

Umm they have to start somewhere you know and having a good working knowledge of the existing mechanics does not put them at a disadvantage when they are given a wealth of skills to experiment with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Whether or not players had a choice doesn't change the fact that those players did, in fact, play PvE. And those players trained the next crop, who trained the next crop.

So, hypothetically speaking, should genetics take the next leap forward anyone who is a clone isnt really human because they were not birthed from a woman. People who played then didnt have a choice, just like you or i didnt have a choice when we were born. That doesnt neccacarially make it the better way to do things in order to learn/grow and that everyone should do things the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I never commented on monster AI, so it can hardly be used as a counter-point to the fact that many popular builds were influenced by certain areas of the PvE game. In any case, AoE scatter occurs in PvP matches,

Yep, but they dont randomly scatter and change their targets as a result of the aoe. They just take 3-5 steps and get out of the area or range of it. The counter point is valid, because the most important aspect in pvp is knowing player behavior and tendancies. This is achieved through knowledge of what the skills are capable of and what their limitations are while recognizing the possibilities within the profession combinations of the opponent. That is the hard part of the game, not figuring out when to push 1-8 while playing something new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

as well, and "NPC Hate" harkens back to 6 team Burial Mounds matches. Any one is lying if he or she says he never sat back and watched two teams decimate each other before swooping in for the kill. I do agree with you on the difficulty of most PvE encounters, though.

Umm lets see, i dont believe you can directly control who fought who durring those 6v6 matches unlike in pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

A good point, balanced only by the fact that there are still players playing through the game legitimately. However, the above circumstance is certainly valid.

Legitimate pve only players will just remake into the new classes, nor do character skills transfer between characters like with account unlocks. A normal player will also spend those points as needed. Simply stated, there is no need to hoard in normal play. As a consequence, there should be no reason to allow it to occur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I've seen "True Knowledge" referenced a few times in this thread, and the only efforts to define it have been based entirely on personal opinions. Anyway, as far as your point goes, it seems as though you're saying that a drastic allocation of skills causes a rift in the playerbase that results in skill balance changes to counter the metagame. Since PvE players don't propose a threat to the PvP metagame, it seems you're saying that alotting PvP players a drastic increase in skills would be terrible for the metagame, since it would grant them a distinct advantage over their only competition, those who play both PvE and PvP. I'm sure this isn't what you meant, so please revise the above for me.

First off, you have come out and stated several times that people are not capable of adapting to something new quickly. It is only natural to assume that you are speaking from personal experiences. You did not also explain in detail how things are learned over time or how it directly corrolates in the transition between pve and pvp.

My point is, pvp only character have certain restrictions on how much they can aquire at once. PvE characters do not have such restrictions. They both should have the same restriction. The PR team from ANET have repeatedly stated that they will not give out everything to the pvp crowd. The natural flow of logic would dictate placing an equivilant restriction upon the pve character in order to retain the same parity between the two types of characters and allow for the gradual progression that you are advocating for. I have also brought up points where if the desire to skip through the game is removed, that it will improve the general quality of the pve player base for playing the pve game. This is opposed to merely using it as a fast unlock mechanic for pvp. This style of progression will also give time for needed balance changes before things become common knowledge and distorts the game dramatically. This is also assuming the development team at ANET will use a agressive approach to change like they have shown in some instances like the adjustments to ranger interupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Yes, this was the issue before faction was introduced. Before faction was introduced. Due to the current cost of skill points, there's little reason to spread large numbers of points over large numbers of characters. Prior to the adjustments, this would have been the case. While some players are hoarding the skill points and the gold to be able to unlock an entire new class, these players are in the minority, and the minority hardly justifies an entire account unlock for another branch of players for the sake of competition.

If you are saying dedicated pvp players and guilds are the minority, then sure whatever. It doesnt change that it will happen if allowed to occur and affects all people who pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Unless the people in your guild don't yet have the skills necessary, in which case you dip into the appropriately equipped playerbase. Both our cases here are hypothetical, so there's really no room for argument on either side.

If the guild isnt very large or active, it does not really fit my situation at all. A small and inactive guild does nothing to the grand scheme of things within pvp. It is the dedicated pvp guilds that will take advantage of this. It is the same people who will use those tools available to them to create the situations they desire. That is the whole point and purpose behind the guild hall additions in the new chapter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

So the hardcorp PvP'ers are going to PvE to unlock the common skills...and then they're going to use their faction to unlock the elite skills, superior runes, and weapon upgrades applicable to the new classes. Meanwhile, the exclusive PvP'ers will be playing with the new classes and gradually attaining skills, effectively gaining a leg up on their soon to enter "better equipped" competition. In whatever case, if guilds are as well equipped as your previous point alluded, said guilds should have no problem GvG'ing and garnering the large amounts of faction there that literally let one fly through the unlocking process.

This seems to be a contridictory statement. On the one hand you are stating that people cant learn new things quickly, while on the other you are saying that people that have nothing to learn with will magically choose exactly the right 8 skills right away and become more proficient with them than the large remaining body of skills left over and be equally effective in any given situation.

Trial and error is still common place when delving into the new. Being able to conduct those trials in a controlled environment, such as the new guild hall additions, will speed this process along. Having all the tools at their disposal and seeing the attribute adjustments, allows them to make the neccacary calculations and tweaks to make the build work right for their 8v8 team also speeds this along.

Pardoz · Jan 11, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Legitimate pve only players will just remake into the new classes, nor do character skills transfer between characters like with account unlocks. A normal player will also spend those points as needed. Simply stated, there is no need to hoard in normal play. As a consequence, there should be no reason to allow it to occur.

Actually "hoarding" skill points is a direct consequence of legitimate PvE play. A Ranger primary(*) who plays every mission and does all the available skill quests will arrive at Droknar's Forge having accumulated 38 skill points (and 2 capture signets, so 40 effective); buying every trainer-only Ranger skill available through normal play (ie. without getting run) up to that point will use 10 of those, leaving 28+2 stockpiled. Spend another 10 or so for trainer-only secondary skills, and you're down to 18+2; use the two free cap sigs and buy two more to get all four possible Desert/Dragon's Lair elites, and you're still left with approximately 16 skill points after spending as many as it's possible for you to have spent at that point in the game; you could quite legitimately have as many as 28 if you didn't buy/cap skills for your secondary.

(*) I used Ranger primary for the example because I happened to have a complete Ranger skill checklist handy; the exact number of skill points will vary slightly depending on your primary/secondary class choices, since different classes get their trainer-only skills at different points.

Phades · Jan 11, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

Actually "hoarding" skill points is a direct consequence of legitimate PvE play. A Ranger primary(*) who plays every mission and does all the available skill quests will arrive at Droknar's Forge having accumulated 38 skill points (and 2 capture signets, so 40 effective);

Spent skill points are not the issue and can not be compensated for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

buying every trainer-only Ranger skill available through normal play (ie. without getting run) up to that point will use 10 of those, leaving 28+2 stockpiled. Spend another 10 or so for trainer-only secondary skills, and you're down to 18+2; use the two free cap sigs and buy two more to get all four possible Desert/Dragon's Lair elites, and you're still left with approximately 16 skill points after spending as many as it's possible for you to have spent at that point in the game; you could quite legitimately have as many as 28 if you didn't buy/cap skills for your secondary.

Spend the skill points on capture signets for the other ~27 or so eliets that you can not get through questing. Then you have 1 skill point stored by the time you get to droknars. The general arrangement of the non-eliete skills gained post droknars through skill venders can be had at any time and also does not require hoarding a stockpile of free skill points unused. That number of free skill points used to be a bit less before they introduced the new quests, i forget if it was 6 or 8 skills total overal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

(*) I used Ranger primary for the example because I happened to have a complete Ranger skill checklist handy; the exact number of skill points will vary slightly depending on your primary/secondary class choices, since different classes get their trainer-only skills at different points.

Considering your "worst" case scenario falls dramatically short, the best cases (ele & monk combinations) are going to be in the negative numbers for skill points stored and needed post droknars anyway. There is zero need to hoard them in normal play.

Daneish · Jan 11, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually both are irrelevant as their time would have been better spent in GvG going for real fame and glory going to the top of the gvg ladder in order to compete in the world championship.

You misunderstand. Fame, in the actual numerical sense that lets players flash their precious tigers, and glory, in the sense of instant gratification in seeing your name flash across what you know to be everyone's screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I already stated that someone new to the game will take longer to grasp things than someone who is a veteren of the game. If you have played sports for awhile then you wouldn't have brought this up as players are at times required to cover other positions in different sporting events and they tend to not remarkably suck at it when they do so. They might not be as good as the person normally covering the position, but they do not just simply suck because they havent been trained. Also training in a virutal world such as GW has very little to do with the training needed in the real world when adapting to situations that need proper "training".

Players cover different positions similar to their own. In football, a safety may play cornerback, or vice versa. These positions are similar, as interrupting rangers will have a similar play style to interrupting mesmers. But the Assassin and Ritualist are -new- classes with -new- skills, thus the striker to keeper comparison. It notes the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

More like people read forums and copy builds. You are grossly overestimating the ability to come to similar conclusions over time. There was a debate regarding warriors using gale and shock about 6 months ago in the pvp forums here, where the majority of the people at the time were stating that warriors should not use them or that they havent seen them. Obviously there were those that figured it out long before other people because they had the skill sets available to try out the combination. The gale/shock warrrior also is generally crap in pve anyway, while amazingly enough the paladin/tank is rather useable in pve. I do not think that this is a coincidence as new people to pvp try to use the tired and true pve methods and get laughed at and crushed in real pvp. Forcing people to learn things the wrong way first does not help anyone.

I never insinuated a mass, planned exodus from paladin to shock warrior. In any case, the Shock warrior, had it been massively implemented six months ago, wouldn't have survived due to the metagame of the time. The shock warrior works now because player skill, strategy, and understanding of the game have evolved, which makes this build viable. By the same token, the assassin and ritualist will also follow a gradual evolution, as all classes do, as players work with the classes and discover new combinations step by step, keeping consistent with the flow of the metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Umm they have to start somewhere you know and having a good working knowledge of the existing mechanics does not put them at a disadvantage when they are given a wealth of skills to experiment with.

That still doesn't refute my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

So, hypothetically speaking, should genetics take the next leap forward anyone who is a clone isnt really human because they were not birthed from a woman. People who played then didnt have a choice, just like you or i didnt have a choice when we were born. That doesnt neccacarially make it the better way to do things in order to learn/grow and that everyone should do things the same way.

You've lost sight of what this portion of the debate actually referenced, and this analogy is perversely off target. PvP, as a whole, has been influenced by PvE, period. If I played PvE, and go to PvP, my PvP has been influenced by what I've seen in PvE. Every player I work with and train, from thereon, is influenced by my own experiences, and therefore PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yep, but they dont randomly scatter and change their targets as a result of the aoe. They just take 3-5 steps and get out of the area or range of it. The counter point is valid, because the most important aspect in pvp is knowing player behavior and tendancies. This is achieved through knowledge of what the skills are capable of and what their limitations are while recognizing the possibilities within the profession combinations of the opponent. That is the hard part of the game, not figuring out when to push 1-8 while playing something new.

This still has nothing to do with my point. Entire PvP builds have been gleaned from PvE. You haven't debated that, and I didn't drag in the dead horse you're beating with the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Umm lets see, i dont believe you can directly control who fought who durring those 6v6 matches unlike in pve.

An inconsequential point that related "NPC Hate" to actions of PvP players in the PvP setting. Forgive the generalization. Not every single team used this tactic in Burial Mounds, and not every PvE map features "NPC Hate." I'm not sure what you're getting at, here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

First off, you have come out and stated several times that people are not capable of adapting to something new quickly. It is only natural to assume that you are speaking from personal experiences. You did not also explain in detail how things are learned over time or how it directly corrolates in the transition between pve and pvp.

No, I came out and stated several times that the player who works with the new classes in the fashion ANet has intended will advance in skill with the class more quickly than a player given an unlocked character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

My point is, pvp only character have certain restrictions on how much they can aquire at once. PvE characters do not have such restrictions. They both should have the same restriction. The PR team from ANET have repeatedly stated that they will not give out everything to the pvp crowd. The natural flow of logic would dictate placing an equivilant restriction upon the pve character in order to retain the same parity between the two types of characters and allow for the gradual progression that you are advocating for. I have also brought up points where if the desire to skip through the game is removed, that it will improve the general quality of the pve player base for playing the pve game. This is opposed to merely using it as a fast unlock mechanic for pvp. This style of progression will also give time for needed balance changes before things become common knowledge and distorts the game dramatically. This is also assuming the development team at ANET will use a agressive approach to change like they have shown in some instances like the adjustments to ranger interupts.

PvP players who skip through the game don't impact the PvE player base aside from helping balance the economy by finding drops and contributing to gold flow. Removing the "flash farmers," as we'll call them, certainly won't help the exclusive PvE'ers that really don't mind that they're there. Were faction not capped, it would make for a ridiculously faster method of unlocking skills and such, due to the huge amounts of faction one can gain in Tombs and GvG. A better argument, instead of calling for a completely unlocked, PvP version of the game, would be for a heightened faction cap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If the guild isnt very large or active, it does not really fit my situation at all. A small and inactive guild does nothing to the grand scheme of things within pvp. It is the dedicated pvp guilds that will take advantage of this. It is the same people who will use those tools available to them to create the situations they desire. That is the whole point and purpose behind the guild hall additions in the new chapter.

Small doesn't mean inactive, and regardless, relying on other players to play certain classes brings integration. Playing with new people. Your guild may never need a PUG for anything, but other guilds will, small and large, and this will help uncover a lot of the underexposed PvP player base that's been smothered by IWAY and Rank Nazi's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

This seems to be a contridictory statement. On the one hand you are stating that people cant learn new things quickly, while on the other you are saying that people that have nothing to learn with will magically choose exactly the right 8 skills right away and become more proficient with them than the large remaining body of skills left over and be equally effective in any given situation.

No, actually, none of that is in my paragraph, at all. The large, active guild scenario, which you refer to, should have no problem rapidly unlocking classes thanks to the large faction gains from GvG. And, at the same time, people actually playing with the classes in PvP will be gaining experience with the class, and they'll be better with the class than the PvE rushing PvP'er that jumps in with an unlocked Assassin and no PvP experience with it.

immolatus · Jan 11, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Well, first offI will say I play PvE and PvP. I play PvP has much has I can since I left a character slot for PvP character. I have to say that if an "unlocked" version of GW comes out it will greatly hinder those of us that play both sides of the game. How can I be "competitive" and "learn" if all the "true" PvPers have fully unlocked accounts off the bat and I have to actually work for it? It would be unfair.

Has far has new players that know nothing about PvP getting a fully unlocked version of the game, I say it would be a big mistake. I mean, you dont learn how to ride a car, fly a plane, tie your shoes, play sports, play cards or many other things by just beign thrown into it. You start slow, and build up from it. Grind you say? So what, no matter what happens there will always be grind one way or the other. Next thing you know, everyone will be asking to get max rank off the bat because its a grind to get all that fame.

I'm not Anti-PvP, if I could I would only play PvP. I would say, if you get full unlock, it should be after getting a certain ammount of rank or faction. Rank should be gained in GvG also to make it fair for those non-"Iway" lovers. And after you finish the PvE side of the game with one character you get full unlock has well. Fair to both sides and those of us who dont want to buy a PvP only version of the game can still be "competitive". Fair enough to people? Probably not, someone is going to complain about it, PvPers and PvErs, but you can never satisfy everyone.

Sorry for my spelling if any mistakes, and notice I'm not flaming/arguing against PvPers, I'm just stating my opinion and trying to make sense of this argument. One game, 2 very separated sides? Bad idea, What one gets, the other one should? Good idea, I pay the same for this game has the other person so I should get the same "balance" has far has "skills".

EternalTempest · Jan 12, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

eeck this is a twist on the whole Universal Unlock System aurgment, I bet Anet regrets doing this on the final beta to test skill balancing before the game went live.

Gw from Developers, Gale, interviews have created a game with PvE & PvP came that co-exist and stated that they care about both and admit it's juggling act with doing stuff for PvE and PvP and have both PvX "only" arugments constantly from players.

I do only PvE and looking at PvP but I don't complain about not having access to Fow/Uw if we don't have favor nor if they tweak a skill due to the effect in PvP and the effect in PvE.

Agree with striderkarru

reboot · Jan 12, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Seems like we finally got a reasonable post, Thanks, even if i don't agree with you and heres why...

Quote:

Originally Posted by immolatus

How can I be "competitive" and "learn" if all the "true" PvPers have fully unlocked accounts off the bat and I have to actually work for it? It would be unfair.

Are you competitive now, are you in a guild thats top on the ladder, holding halls allot? Please don't take this the wrong way but if your not in high level competitive PvP then you Don't Need UAS, so you shouldn't buy a UAS version. Its for players like me, who are very competitive.

Incidently - My highest guild rank is 33, my record for holding halls is 25 matchs, my long streak in 4v4 is 93 games, and I have had UAS since before faction by beating the game with eight characters. I want UAS editon to avoid grinding again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by immolatus

I say it would be a big mistake. I mean, you dont learn how to ride a car, fly a plane, tie your shoes, play sports, play cards or many other things by just beign thrown into it.

You don't learn PvP from PvE, you learn it by trying skills, making and testing builds, and by playing PvP. Having UAS would allow people to try more builds faster then if they had to play PvE or insane amounts of faction grind. It takes pratice to be good at PvP and I would rather a new player pratice PvP to improve at PvP, the sonner they start with UAS the sooner they can try all the skills and builds, they feel like, the more and faster they should improve. By Playing PvE many players develop habbits and conceptions thats hurt them in PvP, heres a list of some:

PvE Misconception #1 - Warriors need mostly stances and monk spells because they hold agro and tank, commonly known as a "stance/book/gear tank."
The truth In PvP - Warriors need damage more then defense, one or 2 skills like endure pain or healing sig are enough defence for a war in pvp.

PvE Misconception #2 - Frenzy Sucks.
The truth In PvP - almost every GvG warrior in the top 200 uses frenzy, its a great skill if you know how to use it.

PvE Misconception #3 - only monks should res, they should use rebirth mid fight, and healing sig sucks.
The truth In PvP - healing sig is great and monks should never stop to res, they shouldn't even equip one, other people should use res sigs and a fast cast resurect is a good idea too.

PvE Misconception #4 - wand the target all the time because the damage adds up.
The truth In PvP - wanding, certianly isn't important and should only be done with a reason. In some builds, as you might break an ice prision or give away a spike.

PvE Misconception #5 - res ASAP
The truth In PvP - check the clock they might auto res, call your res to avoid double sig reses, dont res a body blocked teamate mindlessly.

PvE Misconception #6 - Stand there and take a beating if you die blame the monks.
The truth In PvP - kiting is very important and so is possition.

PvE Misconception #7 - Monks dont need energy management cause they can rest inbetween fights.
The truth In PvP - monks need energy managment.

I could keeep going and going, like blah blah mesmers suck, rangers suck, air eles suck, smiters sucks, you don't customize weapons so you can sell them, water eles suck, sword sucks, tatics sucks, and finally PvE takes as much skill as PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by immolatus

I pay the same for this game has the other person so I should get the same

I agree it could be unfair to give away UAS to PvP only, thats why I want a seperate PvP only unlocked edition that I can buy. I will buy the PvE (regular) guildwars also, beat it once playing it when I can't gvg. If you don't play high level PvP you don't need UAS.

Juhanah · Jan 12, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I wouldn't really care if PvP player had UAS.. But you have to know that Anet built a PvE & PvP game. The PvP-only characters option wasn't even suposed to stay after retail. It was only for player to be able to test end game PvP. People wanted it to stay and they had it. But now are still unhappy and blame Arenanet.
It always been the same. The most you give to people, the most they will want. And they will blame the giver for not giving enough.

I'm neither defending the PvE or PvP side on this. Since it's the same in PvE anyway. As soon as they get something they asked, they cry for more.

And it is true that UAS would drop the skillful PvP player. It is better to work on every skill for a while and learn how the game works than getting everything right away.

Its like the saying:
Give a man UAS; you have IWAY in HoH. Teach a man the skills; and you have him on the top 10 ranked guild. (probably running spike but let say he don't

)

As for making a separated game, i really don't think Anet will break their idea of the game(which they have since 2003) into two separated game.

Pardoz · Jan 12, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Spent skill points are not the issue and can not be compensated for.

Actually those two cap sigs are quest rewards. Since you don't have to spend a skill point to get them, and they can be used to get your first two elites (or any other two skills of your choice) without spending a skill point on a cap sig, they effectively increase your number of useable skill points.

Quote:

Spend the skill points on capture signets for the other ~27 or so eliets that you can not get through questing.

I could, sure, assuming I wanted to cap those twenty-odd elites and had the cash on hand to buy ~30 cap sigs. I don't see any pressing reason why I should be forced to do so.

Quote:

There is zero need to hoard them in normal play.

Again, I'm in absolute agreement. Up to a certain point hoarding's built into the system, though, and that would have to be taken into account if they were to introduce a cap on unspent skill points. Once you get past Drok's, the numbers drop fairly quickly as you buy your last few trainer-only skills, start elite capping, and possibly start buying skills to open up a new secondary class or two on your character, which is why I looked at how many you'll have, max, when you arrive there, since that would be a reasonable number to cap acquisition at.

I don't know that such a cap is really necessary, because I think there are better ways to avoid potential problems with people stockpiling 2 or 3 hundred skill points so they can immediately unlock all the new skills the same day a new chapter comes out, but I'm not against the idea of a cap in principle.

If there are problems caused by skill point hoarding when Factions comes out, I'll absolutely support a cap on stored skill points; if there aren't, we can all go look for other things to swing the nerf bat at

Daneish · Jan 12, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reboot

Are you competitive now, are you in a guild thats top on the ladder, holding halls allot? Please don't take this the wrong way but if your not in high level competitive PvP then you Don't Need UAS, so you shouldn't buy a UAS version. Its for players like me, who are very competitive.

Incidently - My highest guild rank is 33, my record for holding halls is 25 matchs, my long streak in 4v4 is 93 games, and I have had UAS since before faction by beating the game with eight characters. I want UAS editon to avoid grinding again.

Congratulations, but your personal achievements do absolutely nothing to support your argument, as there are players who've won more tombs matches, had longer streaks in 4v4, and belong to higher ranked guilds who don't have a problem with the system the way it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reboot

PvE Misconception #1 - Warriors need mostly stances and monk spells because they hold agro and tank, commonly known as a "stance/book/gear tank."...etc.

How can you possibly compare Pve tactics to PvP tactics? No one's claimed a direct translation of player skill from PvE to PvP. The fact is playing PvE goes a long way toward learning to use a character, in a PvE or PvP setting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reboot

I could keep going and going, like blah blah mesmers suck, rangers suck, air eles suck, smiters sucks, you don't customize weapons so you can sell them, water eles suck, sword sucks, tatics sucks, and finally PvE takes as much skill as PvP.

Again, you can't compare the two in this fashion. PvE is a mostly proactive game, where players prepare for the challenges they know they're going to face. PvP is reactive and players have to rely on a small measure of luck - yes, luck - when competing, due to the myriad different builds and strategies. The two modes are very different, so skill level can't even remotely be compared between the two. Apples and oranges.

Phades · Jan 12, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

You misunderstand. Fame, in the actual numerical sense that lets players flash their precious tigers, and glory, in the sense of instant gratification in seeing your name flash across what you know to be everyone's screen.

I pvp, but i dont care about those things at all. What i do care about is the actual performance within the game. That performance can not be achieved without having the tools available and having them in a similar timeframe as everyone else without having to go through the exact same motions everyone else does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Players cover different positions similar to their own. In football, a safety may play cornerback, or vice versa. These positions are similar, as interrupting rangers will have a similar play style to interrupting mesmers. But the Assassin and Ritualist are -new- classes with -new- skills, thus the striker to keeper comparison. It notes the difference.

The assassin will be akin to an offensive character probably somewhere between a warrior and a ranger in form and function, while the ritualist will lie somewhere in the support realm given the information. There wont be a harsh transition between these beyond figuring out if they require niche builds from the other 6-7 players on the team. The only way to find that out is through testing and observation of al the skills available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

I never insinuated a mass, planned exodus from paladin to shock warrior. In any case, the Shock warrior, had it been massively implemented six months ago, wouldn't have survived due to the metagame of the time. The shock warrior works now because player skill, strategy, and understanding of the game have evolved, which makes this build viable.

I dont know what you are talking about, its been a staple from the korean teams for alot longer than that. It was actually common for the rangers to have gale as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

That still doesn't refute my point.

It didnt need to, there was none. I was considering just leaving that body of text blank. The idea was to try to bring you back to what was important, rather than continuing along that line of thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

You've lost sight of what this portion of the debate actually referenced, and this analogy is perversely off target. PvP, as a whole, has been influenced by PvE, period. If I played PvE, and go to PvP, my PvP has been influenced by what I've seen in PvE. Every player I work with and train, from thereon, is influenced by my own experiences, and therefore PvE.

Pvp is influenced by sucessful pvp players, not computer controlled AI in predictable patterns and layouts. You obviously missed the previous comment regarding paladin/tank warriors and doing things the wrong way initially when transitioning over from pve to pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

This still has nothing to do with my point. Entire PvP builds have been gleaned from PvE. You haven't debated that, and I didn't drag in the dead horse you're beating with the above.

What pvp builds are you talking about? Most computer AI use 4 skills on the bar and rarely have more than 3 different professions in a given area. Even the closest equivilant would be IWAY builds that do not include any support beyond 1 necromancer have alot more variance and depth than the white mantle in the maguuma region. Simply stated there are none due to the existance of balanced builds. You had no arguable point and was trying to discuss something that doesn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

An inconsequential point that related "NPC Hate" to actions of PvP players in the PvP setting. Forgive the generalization. Not every single team used this tactic in Burial Mounds, and not every PvE map features "NPC Hate." I'm not sure what you're getting at, here.

There is no direct corrolation between pvp and pve in any kind of learning scenario. The opponent behaves differently in both. One is overly predictable, while the other is not. One you can bring the same 8 skills throughout most of it and never find a need to alter it, in the other you would make tweaks due to player trends over time. In one you can control how much and what type of agressor is engaging you, in the other you cannot. The type of strategy within the builds is totally different as well between the two. This is obvious when observing the tank warriors from pve who need to sit there and hold attention of monsters, versus the total offense warriors of pvp who rely upon damage to cause pressure and remove the threat before they worry about being targeted/killed themselves. The order of target priority is a bit different as well in pve and there is virtually no need to change targets on the fly, while in pvp it is commonplace. The level of challenge between the two is radically different as well, but it is partially due to the predictable nature of the pve environment. No where in pvp do you hear about 1 person of any proffession soloing 8 opponents (or more) at the same time.

The pve game is designed for exploration and sucess, while pvp is designed for competition. The types of skills and strategies derived from both are fundamentally different. The only common ground between the two is the skill database knowledge. That knowledge can not be aquired if the player does not have them at their disposal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

No, I came out and stated several times that the player who works with the new classes in the fashion ANet has intended will advance in skill with the class more quickly than a player given an unlocked character.

You cant work within the class if you dont have the skills. Taking the character through pve from start to finish will not put the player ahead of someone who unlocked the skills and took it directly into pvp. The problem with your line of thought is one person is getting vaulable pvp experience using the character in pvp situations, while the other is wasting time in pve. The pve was useful for getting used to the interface, but thats about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

PvP players who skip through the game don't impact the PvE player base aside from helping balance the economy by finding drops and contributing to gold flow.

Right and spam for runners to "x" location is just my imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Removing the "flash farmers," as we'll call them, certainly won't help the exclusive PvE'ers that really don't mind that they're there.

Nothing in what i said had anything to do with people concerned with the fame emote specifically. It had everything to do with people who actual make an impact upon the metagame opposed to the people who just follow it like sheep. The thing is, by not giving preference to skill aquisition in one form or another, the player will merely choose which style of play they like best for it. This is instead of defaulting to the faster method in order to "begin" playing again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Were faction not capped, it would make for a ridiculously faster method of unlocking skills and such, due to the huge amounts of faction one can gain in Tombs and GvG. A better argument, instead of calling for a completely unlocked, PvP version of the game, would be for a heightened faction cap.

Were faction not capped, it would be the same as an unlocked pvp edition for some individuals. Just like how it will be for people who use stored skill point characters to do so through pve. There is no difference what so ever beyond the pve player having to goto cantha and do a little point a -> b running through low to mid level and eventually high level areas. A stable build level 20 character with max AL and perfect equipment will have zero challenge moving through the first parts of the game and will only have a minor pause towards the end of it. A team of that style of character will have an even easier time. It would be foolish to think that pve exclusive players making new characters are not going to be snubbed by large bodies of level 20 players moving through the game quickly just to aquire skills. It would be similarly foolish to assume that the existing player base will remake into existing character classes just to play the pve begining phases of CH2 with others who decided to create a character with one of the new professions. People who do/did not own ch1 may do this, but they will certainly be in the minority overal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Small doesn't mean inactive, and regardless, relying on other players to play certain classes brings integration. Playing with new people. Your guild may never need a PUG for anything, but other guilds will, small and large, and this will help uncover a lot of the underexposed PvP player base that's been smothered by IWAY and Rank Nazi's.

IWAY was developed as an easy build to play, but it ended up being effective. The easy part of it allows PUG to run them with reasonable sucess, similar to air spike durring early summer and e/mo smite in late summer/early fall. The reason is there is little overal depth to the build and is not overly dependant on timing between players. Creating situations for more depth and different timing needs will not change anything on the PUG level of play. It will change some aspects at the higher levels of play, depending on the skill synergies involved between the classes. The only thing that might change, is if IWAY gets squashed into oblivion with changes comming with the expansion through possible alternatives or counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

No, actually, none of that is in my paragraph, at all. The large, active guild scenario, which you refer to, should have no problem rapidly unlocking classes thanks to the large faction gains from GvG. And, at the same time, people actually playing with the classes in PvP will be gaining experience with the class, and they'll be better with the class than the PvE rushing PvP'er that jumps in with an unlocked Assassin and no PvP experience with it.

The difference is, that they would take longer to unlock the new professions using faction gains opposed to rushing through pve to do so. It would be rather foolish of them not to go through pve and do the mass aquire method and test on their own time later with any skill of their choosing. Are you somehow thinking that a player with a pre-made assasin will somehow gain some radical advantage over someone who custom makes a assassin? I seriously hope you arent really advocating that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

Actually those two cap sigs are quest rewards. Since you don't have to spend a skill point to get them, and they can be used to get your first two elites (or any other two skills of your choice) without spending a skill point on a cap sig, they effectively increase your number of useable skill points.

The thing is, there would be no fair way to retroactivly adjust skills like capture signet, because they can be stored through spending skill points. The crux of the issue is preventing a UAX for one party of play over another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

I could, sure, assuming I wanted to cap those twenty-odd elites and had the cash on hand to buy ~30 cap sigs. I don't see any pressing reason why I should be forced to do so.

Considering the percentage of skills left to gain post draknors, the majority of them are eliete skills anyway. If you werent planning on using those skill points to get the elietes for your current class combination, then you could get them for any other profession you changed your secondary to. Or are you saying you weren't planning on using the skill points anyway? In which case your point is rather moot. It would not be that arduous if the cap was, for instance, at 10 skills stored for a ranger combination. In my example the player spent skill points only on capture signets and did not pick up any of the skill trainer skills not gained through skill quests leaving 1 skill point stored afterwards upon arriving at droknars forge and saving those signets for only eliete skills. This would be instead of using them on a couple select possibilities that are not available till marhan's grotto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

If there are problems caused by skill point hoarding when Factions comes out, I'll absolutely support a cap on stored skill points; if there aren't, we can all go look for other things to swing the nerf bat at

By then it would be too late and considered status quo. Then you would only see more individuals stating that they were tired of doing the pve skill exploit routine similar to reboot, or others that made similar arguements in the summer of last year.

crimsonfilms · Jan 12, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish
Were faction not capped, it would make for a ridiculously faster method of unlocking skills and such, due to the huge amounts of faction one can gain in Tombs and GvG. A better argument, instead of calling for a completely unlocked, PvP version of the game, would be for a heightened faction cap.

I am not sure where you get such information. Please do the basic math. It takes at least 3 GvG wins - assuming you have no guild duration penalty (2 weeks or more) to unlock ONE elite (3k faction). Assuming each GvG is somewhere 20 min to 1 hour plus preperation - you are looking at 1-3 hours for one elite.

I can unlock 2-3 regular skills with 1 quest. Cap many elites in 10-20 minutes with henchmen.

Your argument is innacurate at best. Worse it is disengenous or based on lack of experience.

Like I said, you can grab almost all regular skills in one day. Cap elites in another day. So in 2 days you can have all regular skills for 2 classes and several elites - not to mention runes and mods you unlock on the way.

How long did it take you unlock everything on one character with faction only. It is not 1 day. Not 1 week. Hell I bet most not even in 1 month.

Your argument is just plain wrong.

reboot · Jan 12, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Congratulations, but your personal achievements do absolutely nothing to support your argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Your argument is just plain wrong.

5 chars

pintpointfive · Jan 12, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Every PvE player that is arguing that an UAS PvP version is bad because you have to work hard to unlock PvE items to be competitive in PvP... Shut up... You can create a PvP character very easily... And guess what... It didn't take hundreds of hours of game time... And if you have 4 PvE toons then you're bitching from the wrong angle. Motion for more char slots... Don't try and botch PvPers from having fun just because you want everyone to have to grind... You have the same opportunites as the PvP players to create PvP chars... But instead you choose to wallow in your own self pity mumbling something about how PvPers get free unlocks.

And all these skills don't take 15k experience and 1k to unlock... "Private Pyle of the Ascalon Vanguard requests you deliver these acorns to the indigenous chipmunks of Ascalon. But warning, they have teeth." Quest Reward: Most any of your skills except the ones in the special towns.

Yeah, this was a bit of a rant, but the whole think about PvEers not wanting a UAS for PvP is based on them believing PvP people have an advantage because the PvEers don't take advantage of what they're given: THE SAME OPTIONS OF A PVP SLOT AS EVERYONE ELSE.

Fantus · Jan 12, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pintpointfive

Every PvE player that is arguing that an UAS PvP version is bad because you have to work hard to unlock PvE items to be competitive in PvP... Shut up... You can create a PvP character very easily... And guess what... It didn't take hundreds of hours of game time... And if you have 4 PvE toons then you're bitching from the wrong angle.

The one bitching from the wrong angle is you. Guild Wars was designed so that PvE and PvP character are equally competitive. Read Gaile's post in response to mine on page 2, if you don't believe me. Guild Wars is NOT designed that PvP can only be done with PvP characters and it never will be.

Besides, I am not bitching. You are. I am fine with the current system. Guild Wars is designed for people who like both PvE and PvP. That's why PvE characters need to be competitive. The only solution to that problem would be to have UAS people play on another server and offical word is that Anet is not going to do that. Can't you guys just accept that and move on?

lord pun|shment · Jan 12, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

if you want the unlocked skills......play the damn game .....PvE chars need to unlock......so SHOULD PvP chars........if your not ready to play a game that requires effort please visit the following link ..... www.nickjr.com

otherwise, spend more time earning faction & less time complaining.

i have 4x PvE chars & i can earn 10,000 faction in a few hours....if not less depending on group......& i dont even need bloody faction

have a nice day