Curse

JR · Jan 09, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I'm with reboot here.

Giving PvP players all unlocks on release would have absolutely zero effect on PvE players. Is it a disadvantage to people who want to do both, but settle on buying the PvE version? Not really, it only takes 10,000 faction to unlock a skill bar. Thats one TA trip with four competant players. The difference is PvE players have the advantage of unlocks through the PvE portion of the game, which is a far faster way than faction. There are a lot of PvE players who don't PvP, so whats wrong with PvP players who don't want to PvE?

Phades · Jan 10, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Let's see, Chapter 2 hits the shelves. I buy it. Why yes, I so happen to have 250k and 250 skill points lying around to spend on new skills by simply changing my secondary and getting the new skills. -.-"

Like the OP said, if he could store more Faction, he'd have millions. Granted he might have exagerated a bit, he could buy 1000 new skills on the spot. now, you got 10. Deal with it. Like I said before, the time to gain 1000 faction vs 15k xp and 1k gold is way smaller. Only 55HP monks wll probably be able to get all skills on the spot, but guess what, not everyone has a 55HP monk, and not everyone has the patience/desire to farm for hours.

You dont even have to go that far really. Make a new character, level it up past 20, have it wait for ch2. Then switch secondaries and absorb the new skill sets quickly. Its fast and cheap, and this also discounts the skill quests gained through pve as well. This is what people did prior to the introduction of faction anyway and is far superior to gaining skills than grinding out faction in terms of time spent. You are talking hours versus days of play kind of difference.

High skill point characters stored do not also have to be high experience point characters or high spent skill point characters. The point is, both sides should be similarly limted to 8(10) skills stored prior to the release.

Also doing pvp for hours just for faction would require patience, just like waiting for a gvg match when the matching system was worse than it is now. The solo pve character wouldnt have to worry about money for new skills due to how solo farming works. You would easily generate enough money per skill point gained through just selling junk to the venders and the basic gold drops.

Preventing the incentive to "rush" through the pve content or solo it, will help the pve players anyway due to the higher quality and pool of players to play with while going through the game normally.

Pardoz · Jan 10, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

High skill point characters stored do not also have to be high experience point characters or high spent skill point characters. The point is, both sides should be similarly limted to 8(10) skills stored prior to the release.

The problem with that is it reallys screws upcoming/low-level PvE characters - mine routinely have 15 or 20 skill points stockpiled by the time I get to the Desert, since I try to get most of my skills for PvE chars from quests, saving my skill points for cap sigs and skills that can only be purchased from trainers.

Speculation: the skills available from quests are the "core" skills Alex talked about, which will be available in all expansions, and the ones you can only get from trainers are the Chapter 1 only skills. Thoughts?

A simpler way to avoid the problem would be to not make the new skills available at Ember Light Camp (after all - why should they be available there? It's a Chapter 1 outpost). There should absolutely be an equivalent trainer in the late Factions PvE game, giving one-stop-shopping access to the entire Factions skill list, but even assuming Cantha's as easy to run as Chapter 1 is (which I strongly doubt it will be), it'll be a while before people find a reliable route there, by which time the two aspects of the game will probably have had time to catch up to each other in terms of acquisition.

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Your missing the whole point, we want a larger player base and we don't want to have to teach PvE players that arn't even serious about PvP, and don't even really want to PvP in the first place.

The PvP only type gamer in general dislikes PvE, because grind and battling weak ai present no challenge, we have better communication, coordination, team work, reflexes, etc...then a normal casual PvE player. UAS for PvP only editions would allow PvP players that wouldn't normally buy Guildwars, to play. MAny Many Many PvP oriented gamers left chapter 1 because of the forced PvE and grind, UAS edition would bring some of them back.

I don't see how people how play PvE should understand the mindset of a PvP gamer, so you make arguments when you think if anet gives PvP players what they want some how it hurts PvE, when it doesn't.

The people against UAS are allot like the player who thinks his warrior needs mending and calls me a noob when I try to help him. They both have no argument, and no reason to disagree, and no experience on the matter. They are just like many of the guildwars player who think they played 500 hours of PvE and they are as skilled as the top GvG players in the world.

Billiard · Jan 10, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Right now a whole lot more people play PvE than those who seriously play PvP. ANet is probably betting that as the game matures a greater percentage of the PvE people will migrate over to PvP, thus enlarging the PvP playerbase. I don't think they are too worried about it now, since GW is still a pretty new game and has sold over a million units already. Now myself, I don't really like PvE much anymore. I have multiple accounts and have been through all the missions several times with all of the classes. Now I just do PvE to either unlock/cap skills on a new account, or for a special trip to help out guildmates. When Chapter 2 comes out I will probably run through it once or twice, but I really cringe at the thought of unlocking the new skills on all my accounts. Probably I'll unlock 2 accounts worth and leave the others alone (they mostly do admin stuff for the guild now anyway).

gimpy wimmer · Jan 10, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Would like to say something about these leet guilds that ppl seem to think are anti noob. For like the last month the guild Te guild has been using our vent and on occasions running builds with us in our smurf guild. One of these builds is the infamous mend spike which consists of 8 premade paladens.

Quite possibly the noobest build ever concevied besides powerlvling in gvg. Not only did a few guildys from Te run with us a member of EnS made the build lol. Your leet antisocial single digit rank guilds arnt that bad. Whats worse is we made it to the 700s running it lol. O and to all u people that think LuLu the monk is a girl becuase of the myspace HESNOT DAMNIT k?

Daneish · Jan 10, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Why a UAS Version of Guildwars Would Be Bad for Guildwars

Well, kids, the focus of Guildwars has been, and always will be, competitive Player versus Player gameplay, no matter in which venue it occurs. Initially, the Player v. Everything experience served to validate the PvP experience. You played through the PvE portion to unlock skills, and while doing so, you actually learned how to play the classes with which you were working. Once you really hit PvP in earnest, you were well-equipped and seasoned enough to have an idea of what to do with your class.

This is what we'll call the "Golden Age" of Guildwars, because Rank 3 was considered elite, and one could find a PUG any time of any day. A majority of the top guilds were formed from players PUG'ing and finding people with whom they enjoyed playing.

Anyway, some folks complained that they had -no- interest in PvE, that they wanted a PvP solution to unlocking skills and items. Enter: Faction. This went over very well, and the PvP players were appeased, for a time. Well, Faction unlocking was still pretty inferior to PvE'ing it, so we saw PvP XTreme weekend, which saw doubled faction rewards, and this was adopted as the norm.

Around the same time, the PvE skill-buying setup was changed; skills, having an incremental cost from skill one to skill one hundred, capped out at 1k, and players now needed only 15k xp to earn a skill point. Players that had spent several hundred hours unlocking skills and such could now buy the remaining skills cheaper, so their advancement rate remained somewhat consistent with PvP, attaining balance.

So what would have been wrong with just making all the skills available to PvP Players?

To make a game interesting, the player has to be rewarded. No one would play Tombs if there wasn't Fame involved (which used to be a heck of a lot harder to earn) and getting to see your name or Guild Name flash across the screen, and knowing that hundreds of thousands of people just saw it, too. By making exclusive PvP'ers -earn- skills, they simultaneously increased the players' skill while gradually introducing new tools for them to flex their growing PvP muscle. If you were to give a player a fully unlocked assassin, he or she would have no idea what to do with it. But if you make said player -unlock- an assassin, starting from the CORE SKILLS THAT ANET SAID WOULD BE INCLUDED, that player develops into an accomplished Assassin, thereby enhancing the overall quality and competition in the PvP experience.

Furthermore, if you release a PvP Only Fully Unlocked Version of the game, you alienate players who play both PvE and PvP, as you limit the tools -they- have to compete against exclusive PvP'ers, which, in turn, degrades the overall quality and competition in the PvP experience.

Making people unlock classes will make players of the class an actual demand, and hey, you might just play with someone you wouldn't have before just because of it. Remember the days of looking for air spikers?

Yeah, Chapter 2 seems to have a bit more of a PvE flair, which has much to do with how surprisingly successful the PvE portion of the original game has been. But if you don't recognize the factions part of Guildwars: Factions as an attempt to turn PvE exclusives on to PvP, you're a couple fries short of a Happy Meal.

JR · Jan 10, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I have to say, that is the most well thought out counter-argument I have seen to this issue.

Phades · Jan 10, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardoz

The problem with that is it reallys screws upcoming/low-level PvE characters - mine routinely have 15 or 20 skill points stockpiled by the time I get to the Desert, since I try to get most of my skills for PvE chars from quests, saving my skill points for cap sigs and skills that can only be purchased from trainers.

Not all the skills are done via quests, nor is there anything stopping you from buying the capture signets you will need ahead of time. There is no issue with what you are saying and in play you are merely doing exactly what will be exploited later on, but without trying to exploit something new. There is no need to stockpile skill points like that, just like there is no realistic need to stockpile faction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Around the same time, the PvE skill-buying setup was changed; skills, having an incremental cost from skill one to skill one hundred, capped out at 1k, and players now needed only 15k xp to earn a skill point. Players that had spent several hundred hours unlocking skills and such could now buy the remaining skills cheaper, so their advancement rate remained somewhat consistent with PvP, attaining balance.

Pve is still faster to aquire any non-eleite skill sets in the game. Some single eliete skills are more convient to get via faction in addition to some select mods and runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

To make a game interesting, the player has to be rewarded. No one would play Tombs if there wasn't Fame involved (which used to be a heck of a lot harder to earn) and getting to see your name or Guild Name flash across the screen, and knowing that hundreds of thousands of people just saw it, too.

This is incorrect. People did other pvp venues prior to faction that had zero gain by doing so. Tombs provided the environment needed to attain sigils early on, thus enabling serious pvp players to participate within GvG fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

If you were to give a player a fully unlocked assassin, he or she would have no idea what to do with it.

This is also incorrect, because knowledge comes from expeirence using things you have. It is not mystically gained from aquiring it through any unlocking process. Any new player learning the game may not have any clue how to play any class, but a veteren will understand how to use the skill sets and the class rather quickly if given the opportuntiy to use the combinations available to them. Also, many skills used or unused in pve are very different when applied to pvp. The pve unlocking mechanic had very little to do with teaching how things work in pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Furthermore, if you release a PvP Only Fully Unlocked Version of the game, you alienate players who play both PvE and PvP

/nod
Splitting the playerbase is bad, but basically what we have currently is a bais towards anyone who does both pve and pvp instead. This is the case due to the ability to store skill points and faction, while being able to change the secondary profession with existing ch1 characters. Then placing them into low level environments that scale with the game will just have a similar effect, just in reverse to the pvp unlocked edition. It will invariably slightly degrade the play quality of people making new characters in ch2, as many of the people will be going through the current status quo motions of rushing through the game and not really exploring it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Making people unlock classes will make players of the class an actual demand, and hey, you might just play with someone you wouldn't have before just because of it. Remember the days of looking for air spikers?

Exclusive seperations of people is just as bad as segregating the pvp and pve players with a pvp uax edition.

Daneish · Jan 10, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Pve is still faster to aquire any non-eleite skill sets in the game. Some single eliete skills are more convient to get via faction in addition to some select mods and runes.

So you agree that both systems have merits that enable a balanced attainment of skills and items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

This is incorrect. People did other pvp venues prior to faction that had zero gain by doing so. Tombs provided the environment needed to attain sigils early on, thus enabling serious pvp players to participate within GvG fights.

People participated in CA and TA, yes, but the game would have floundered had those two modes been the only two modes. And, despite the fact that Sigils hold virtually no appeal, anymore, Tombs still bustles with players. Fame and glory, baby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

This is also incorrect, because knowledge comes from expeirence using things you have. It is not mystically gained from aquiring it through any unlocking process. Any new player learning the game may not have any clue how to play any class, but a veteren will understand how to use the skill sets and the class rather quickly if given the opportuntiy to use the combinations available to them. Also, many skills used or unused in pve are very different when applied to pvp. The pve unlocking mechanic had very little to do with teaching how things work in pvp.

You're a world-class athlete, specializing in soccer. You've played midfield your whole life. Your coach makes you the keeper. In just a few short weeks, you still suck. A Rank 10 warrior specialist is by no means comparable as an elementalist or a monk. A veteran with no experience playing with or against the skill set will be clueless, especially as compared to the player that has earned the skills for his class.

You can't argue that PvE has nothing to do with PvP, since the "early" and oft considered the "best" GW players played PvE to unlock their skills, and -those- players, in turn, have trained the Faction-era players.

Futhermore, the PvE experience, in several instances, mirrors PvP. The Avicara were the first example of Ranger Spike. The Fissure of Woe has a nice Air Spike clinic. "Fear Me" shouting? Grasping Darknesses. I'll stop there, but there are plenty more examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Splitting the playerbase is bad, but basically what we have currently is a bais towards anyone who does both pve and pvp instead. This is the case due to the ability to store skill points and faction, while being able to change the secondary profession with existing ch1 characters. Then placing them into low level environments that scale with the game will just have a similar effect, just in reverse to the pvp unlocked edition. It will invariably slightly degrade the play quality of people making new characters in ch2, as many of the people will be going through the current status quo motions of rushing through the game and not really exploring it.

So, as Arenanet, intended, the people getting the most out of the game are the people playing all aspects of the game. There's really no argument here. If I play A and B, I get to benefit from A and B.
Your scenario pinpoints PvE exclusive characters, if they're to be able to so quickly uncover a skillset with skillpoints. These players don't have anything to do with PvP, unless they're turned on to it by the Factions part of Chapter 2, in which case, they'll be the perfect example of a player with a brand new, unlocked class...that sucks with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Exclusive seperations of people is just as bad as segregating the pvp and pve players with a pvp uax edition.

Hardly accurate. Guild Wars, as it is now, has an extremely segregated playerbase. PvE v. PvP v. Rank 3+, 6+, 9+, v. Guilds v. IWAY'ers...
New classes that require some time and dedication to unlock and play effectively will virtually force integration, as it did with Air Spike, as it did with Spirit Spam (*shudder*), as it did with Dual Smite, etc. At this stage in the game, so many people can play so many things, there's almost no need to go outside your Guild or "Usual Group." New classes that require unlocking will only encourage playing outside one's usual social circle.

Chef Boyardeath · Jan 10, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Heres what I think would be the best solution.
Along with faction and new premades we add guild templates.

Through some sort of system that im not going to dream up right now, your guild can unlock skills for the whole group.
So after you install GWs on your grandmas computer and invite her to play in your guild she simply selects a template your guild has created and she fits in with the team build instantly.

This would be a powerful tool, so I would limit it to GvG.
And then also, it should be earned through.....Grenth faction or something that takes team effort.

this got me thinking about a way to fix atleast one of the problems ppl are having about getting into pvp...and that is just starting out. what if they gave you like 8 (atleast 8) pvp skill points after you joined your first guild? then you could get the help of experienced pvpers on making atleast 1 build so you can learn the ropes with something that will get you by.

Fantus · Jan 10, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Yes and you know what? Only PVE grinders act like this. They want to "farm" fame as they "farm" gold/items/xp. Using IWAY or whatever.
Most PVP-only oriented players play for fun and to learn more and more. They don't care about winning and loosing when they do PUGs.

That's not entirely correct. People "farm" fame, so that they can get into good groups. The fun in PvP mainly comes after you got to Rank 3, not really before that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

PUGS for PVP is the worst way anyway to win something, most PUGs are made by PVE fame farmers.

And what choice do you have if your guild is either small or not a PvP-only guild? And please don't give my that "change guilds" thing, that some people here repeat like a mantra whenever this point gets arised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

As all PVP players do when it comes to teamplay: they don't use their PVE character, they create specifically a PVP character that will fit with the team strategy. They think "what character/build will fit to this team strategy?" and not as many PVE players "what group will fit my character?".

As long as there is no UAS version, a refined PvE character is entirely competitive with a PvP only character. Do you really think nobody having a PvE toon knows how to change a skillbar? Come on! I know PLENTY of people doing PvP with PvE toons and being quite successful with that.

My PvE toons have all elite skills from their primary class, common elites from several secondary classes, different weapon to chose from and multiple armor sets. They all have some skill points and money stored to buy additional skills whenever necessary. A PvE toon is 99% as flexible as any PvP character, really.

It has been pretty much a design goal for GW that PvE and PvP character should be equally competitive in PvP. UAS would break that balance between PvE and PvP characters. GW is, as many people here pointed out, for people who like both PvE and PvP. It's NOT for hardcore PvP players just like it's not for hardcore PvE players.

To be totally blunt: If the current system keeps the extremist players from both sides away, I am totally happy with that. World of Warcraft and Counterstrike is what these people are looking for, not Guild Wars.

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I have to say, that is the most well thought out counter-argument I have seen to this issue.

yeah its much better then the normal flame/argument. Still... I disagree with him on every point and saying UAS would just fill PvP with lots of players who don't know how to play is not true. This isn't Pro Soccer, it dosen't take a life time of pratice to be any possition in Guildwars. Every person I know in PvP would figure out how to play new characters in a UAS system in a matter of minutes. If a friend of mine came in from FPS games to play UAS GvG im sure that i could give him a build explaine how its used and get him up to speed in less then an hour, to the point where all they had to learn was positioning which takes pratice. Why? Cause any of my FPS friends are used to team vs team games, they all have been using vent/ts for years, they all have great reflexes and most of them played D2 or some other RPG allot.

Not to be mean but really i find this humorous..."If you were to give a player a fully unlocked assassin, he or she would have no idea what to do with it. But if you make said player -unlock- an assassin, starting from the CORE SKILLS THAT ANET SAID WOULD BE INCLUDED, that player develops into an accomplished Assassin, thereby enhancing the overall quality and competition in the PvP experience." Anets decision on PvP "CORE SKILLS" , like the paladin premade, is horrible. Its so bad that we have entire threads devoted to why WA/MOs SUCK. Even Anet realized this is true so they went to top GvG guilds for help, im sure you heard of 'bring out your builds?'

"Bring Out Your Builds!
It's time to do a swap-out on some of the PvP Pre-builds. We're looking for effective new character templates to offer to players choosing a quick-start character for PvP play. In order to get the best and freshest builds, those guilds in the Top 20 of the Guild Wars ladder as of 11:59 PST on Sunday, December 4th, will be invited to send us a character build. Then, the player community will vote on their favorites and several templates will be incorporated into the game. We'll have more information on the Bring out Your Builds Challenge soon, but in the meantime, keep on with the GvG and start thinking about what your template will be!"

Adding anets Idea of a premade CORE SKILL assasin will be just like the Premade CORE SKILL pali build. It wont thereby enhance the overall quality and competition in the PvP experience, it will degrade it by no doubt attracting all the people who IWAY, cause ASSASINS LOOK 1337. No Doubt we will see this come day one chapter two 'RANK 9+ ASSASINWAY LFG, the new IWAY.' It will also not effect GvG in a good way, untill we can unlock skills in the assasin line that will actually work in GvG.

EDIT: Another funny thing, many of my friends who PvE who play causal PvP (probally the normal average guildwars players ) store up skill points because in PvE they don't need to unlock skills to be Victorious in PvE. They get there fire ele all set up with Echo or GoR and thats it. They have one of the most "powerful" PvE builds in thet game and can't be bothered to unlock mindshock, in the time they have to play. Thats Fine In PvE, even casual PvP, but not in high level PvP.

The worse case is when I get these Pali's and Echo nukers, who want to join my guild, after seeing us in tombs or observermode.
Seriously I can't even consider them for training, or even a tryout, becuase Playing Anets Core Skills and lots of PvE has done more harm then good in the form of bad habbits and additudes that they are really skilled cause they can beat AI. Many of them get very very very mad when I explaine that were a top 50 GvG guild and that PvE experiance isn't enough.

Phades · Jan 10, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

So you agree that both systems have merits that enable a balanced attainment of skills and items.

The difference is quantity. The pve route will net a far greater quantity of all of the above in a shorter amount of time. All players at one point had to do this. Faction gave a choice. That is all faction is, it is a choice, but its not exactly directly comparable. The cap on faction is one of the more obvious differences. If the faction cap didnt exist, there would be players who pvp'd almost exclusivly within sucessful guilds that would be tantemount to having a near UAX situation upon the release of CH2, just like the dedicated pve player have with large skill point stores. The current situation causes merely a bias to leapfrog through the pve once more with advanced characters and soak up the skills in order to have them available to learn. You are completely ignoring the fact that you must have them in order to get the most out of them, opposed to just speculating on use timing and other situational needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

People participated in CA and TA, yes, but the game would have floundered had those two modes been the only two modes. And, despite the fact that Sigils hold virtually no appeal, anymore, Tombs still bustles with players. Fame and glory, baby.

The point is people did these things because of the game mechanics involved. If they didnt like using the game mechanics, people wouldnt do pvp or pve. Your point is irrellevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

You're a world-class athlete, specializing in soccer. You've played midfield your whole life. Your coach makes you the keeper. In just a few short weeks, you still suck.

You didnt play sports very long did you. Your analogy is bad because of physical elements involved, the unkown talents of the individual, and the ability of the coach. If anything the coach would be at fault here. Basically you are saying that people are simply incapable of learning unless they play pve..... Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

A Rank 10 warrior specialist is by no means comparable as an elementalist or a monk. A veteran with no experience playing with or against the skill set will be clueless, especially as compared to the player that has earned the skills for his class.

Situational awareness gained through play experience is far greater than the general knowledge of each skill function individually. Also, if the player has played that long, they would have been rather ignorant of everyone they played with and against in terms of build use and construction because the game revolves around working together, not just soloing like you can do in pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

You can't argue that PvE has nothing to do with PvP, since the "early" and oft considered the "best" GW players played PvE to unlock their skills, and -those- players, in turn, have trained the Faction-era players.

Maybe because back in the begining, they had no choice? Why do you think runners are so envouge now? Those players developed ways to skip through the pve efficently in order to get to the pvp with the skills they wanted to use. They didnt wait to do pvp until after they logged in X hours in pve to start doing pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Futhermore, the PvE experience, in several instances, mirrors PvP. The Avicara were the first example of Ranger Spike. The Fissure of Woe has a nice Air Spike clinic. "Fear Me" shouting? Grasping Darknesses. I'll stop there, but there are plenty more examples.

Yep and monsters standing inside aoe or casting through backfire are excellent examples of pvp play. The running back and forth between aoe bursts is amusing now too, in addition to the npc hate that some of the races have allowing the player to cause the monsters to fight each other instead of them. That was the fastest way to do villany of galrath for a very long time without a single death and only required 1-2 characters to do. The npc encounters also rarely have balanced or well mixed and complimentary groups. Your examples of one style of build do not reflect pvp overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

So, as Arenanet, intended, the people getting the most out of the game are the people playing all aspects of the game. There's really no argument here. If I play A and B, I get to benefit from A and B.

There is no need to have someone who does both have the opportunity to merely create a situation that one exclusive group is asking for. The unlocking issue only applies to those who pvp anyway. The point is to have them on a relative even playing field, not tilted in favor of one style over another. The current game mechanics merely reflect a runner's playstyle and not really experiencing the game or exploring it at all. Just follow the green arrow, dont read any of the text, and bring your favorite run buffs and you are fine for the most part. For people trying to enjoy the game with other people and do not always play within their own guilds, having a diverse playing field of people who are not just trying to go from point a->b is a far better situation. Removing the reason that caters to one style of play over another is just as much of a game balance issue as any kind of skill rebalancing done over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Your scenario pinpoints PvE exclusive characters, if they're to be able to so quickly uncover a skillset with skillpoints. These players don't have anything to do with PvP, unless they're turned on to it by the Factions part of Chapter 2, in which case, they'll be the perfect example of a player with a brand new, unlocked class...that sucks with it.

I guess that people are simply incapable of learning anything where you come from by having something to learn with. While true knowledge only comes from studying others who went ahead and unlocked everything initially and tryed it out first hand then posted their results. Forced baby steps is meaningless, because everyone learns at a different pace. Some can grasp complicated issues quickly, while others cannot. There will be people who will grasp the capabilities of each new profession and skill combination and find any possible exploits with them before the majority of the player base even knows it exists. This always happens and creating a situation where one group will not aquire them drastically faster will help ease out the re-balancing that is sure to come over the next few months. You can look at the current skill revision history of skill changes versus preference in metagame if you want a good reference.

My scenario also does not pinpoint pve exclusive players. Merely players who exploit the current ability to store skill points for rapid aquisition and use them for pvp. This is what people did before faction was introduced btw, while being run through the existing game. A exclusive pve player doesnt affect anyone, but themselves. You are also assuming single character storage for the skill points, which does not have to be the case as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

Hardly accurate. Guild Wars, as it is now, has an extremely segregated playerbase. PvE v. PvP v. Rank 3+, 6+, 9+, v. Guilds v. IWAY'ers... New classes that require some time and dedication to unlock and play effectively will virtually force integration, as it did with Air Spike, as it did with Spirit Spam (*shudder*), as it did with Dual Smite, etc. At this stage in the game, so many people can play so many things, there's almost no need to go outside your Guild or "Usual Group." New classes that require unlocking will only encourage playing outside one's usual social circle.

No it wont. If the goal is to be fast and efficient with them you would go with your usual group to avoid any slow downs, then take all the goodies you unlocked into a semi controlled environment like 4v4 TA and test it or the new additions to the guild hall for practice. Then bring in an altered 8v8 to incorporate the new skills/builds and go from there. There is no need to dillute that with anyone outside of the people within your guild.

I seem to get the impression that you think that the current skills used are the result of people not knowing how to use the rest of them. The reason why they are used is directly due to how effective they are and that there is no real alternative in many instances. Expect the people who create builds to knock out the skill aquisition first through pve and then take those into pvp and take advantage of everyone else that did not go the same route until everyone else catches up. (To clarify, aquire from pve, then use in pvp not aquire in pve, use in pve, then play pvp) This is how the meta game works, and has worked through previous patches and revisions.

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Also i'm not saying PvE players have no place in guildwars, its the opposite in fact. UAS PvP only version and regular Ch Two versions should be sold. PvE Gets the same game they love with no changes. PvP gets what they love with out being forced to play missions they don't enjoy.

PvP players, more so then any PvE players I know have multiple accounts, so its very likely they will buy both editions, I know I Would, and thats more money for Anet.

PvP would be happy, PvE would not be changed (maybe even happier with out so many "meanie PvP players" telling them how to play), and Anet makes more Sales.

Fantus · Jan 10, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by reboot

EDIT: Another funny thing, many of my friends who PvE who play causal PvP (probally the normal average guildwars players ) store up skill points because in PvE they don't need to unlock skills to be Victorious in PvE. They get there fire ele all set up with Echo or GoR and thats it. They have one of the most "powerful" PvE builds in thet game and can't be bothered to unlock mindshock, in the time they have to play. Thats Fine In PvE, even casual PvP, but not in high level PvP.

Don't know if you have played much PvE, but this is how it works:

Buying skills with skill points or money is quite expensive, that's why many players are reluctant to unlock skills they currently are not sure if they really need them. That's especially true for secondary class skills. You can't buy all skills from all 5 secondary classes for all toons you have - not even the most dedicated farmers have that much money. It's 1k of gold per skill and there are 400 of them in total. Like 60 of them can be quested, but they rest you have to buy. Also remember, in PvE only the CHARACTER gets the skill, not the account. If your monk has Mend Ailment, your Ele still has to buy it, if wants that skill, too

Most PvE toons have all primary class skills and a select few from secondary classes. This is why it's a good idea to keep some skill points in case you need a new skill for PvP. And yes, some skills don't make the slightest sense in PvE but are cool in PvP (like Infuse Health). That's why PvE toons usually don't have them unless they go into PvP.

I guess you have a very low opinion of PvE, but many PvE players use a LOT of different builds according to the area they plan to go in. I don't know any dedicated PvE player who never changes their skillbar.

sun is in us · Jan 10, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by reboot

2) IWAY Will be "ballanced" so tombs will be fun to play again, and not 95% IWAY.

I'm sorry, I couldn't find the green text that says this in the OP.....could you point out where Gaile says this please?

Daneish · Jan 10, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The difference is quantity. The pve route will net a far greater quantity of all of the above in a shorter amount of time. All players at one point had to do this. Faction gave a choice. That is all faction is, it is a choice, but its not exactly directly comparable. The cap on faction is one of the more obvious differences. If the faction cap didnt exist, there would be players who pvp'd almost exclusivly within sucessful guilds that would be tantemount to having a near UAX situation upon the release of CH2, just like the dedicated pve player have with large skill point stores. The current situation causes merely a bias to leapfrog through the pve once more with advanced characters and soak up the skills in order to have them available to learn. You are completely ignoring the fact that you must have them in order to get the most out of them, opposed to just speculating on use timing and other situational needs.

Yes, PvE is faster for unlocking common skills, but faction is exponentially faster for unlocking elite skills, superior runes, and final weapon upgrades. Balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The point is people did these things because of the game mechanics involved. If they didnt like using the game mechanics, people wouldnt do pvp or pve. Your point is irrellevant.

Partially right and mostly wrong. Game mechanics have much to do with how fun a game is, but even after Celestial Sigils have lost their appeal, Tombs still bustles with players clamoring for a) Fame, and b) Glory, neither of which are irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

You didnt play sports very long did you. Your analogy is bad because of physical elements involved, the unkown talents of the individual, and the ability of the coach. If anything the coach would be at fault here. Basically you are saying that people are simply incapable of learning unless they play pve..... Whatever.

I've played sports for awhile, but -that- is irrelevant. A new goalkeeper thrown against professional talent will get smoked over and over and over, and he will progress much more slowly than a classically trained keeper. Likewise, a player grabbing a plethora of skills he's never worked with and just attempting to make something useful, won't. This is why Paladins were the common PvP warrior at day 1 and Shock Warriors are the common PvP warrior today. As time has progressed and people worked with the skills that came available to them, they advanced their builds and their tactics. Oh, and at no point did I ever say that people are incapable of learning unless they play PvE. Whatever, indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Situational awareness gained through play experience is far greater than the general knowledge of each skill function individually. Also, if the player has played that long, they would have been rather ignorant of everyone they played with and against in terms of build use and construction because the game revolves around working together, not just soloing like you can do in pve.

I agree completely with the bold-faced portion. However, everything after that is unapplicable, as a veteran player still has no experience playing as or against the new classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Maybe because back in the begining, they had no choice? Why do you think runners are so envouge now? Those players developed ways to skip through the pve efficently in order to get to the pvp with the skills they wanted to use. They didnt wait to do pvp until after they logged in X hours in pve to start doing pvp.

Whether or not players had a choice doesn't change the fact that those players did, in fact, play PvE. And those players trained the next crop, who trained the next crop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yep and monsters standing inside aoe or casting through backfire are excellent examples of pvp play. The running back and forth between aoe bursts is amusing now too, in addition to the npc hate that some of the races have allowing the player to cause the monsters to fight each other instead of them. That was the fastest way to do villany of galrath for a very long time without a single death and only required 1-2 characters to do. The npc encounters also rarely have balanced or well mixed and complimentary groups. Your examples of one style of build do not reflect pvp overall.

I never commented on monster AI, so it can hardly be used as a counter-point to the fact that many popular builds were influenced by certain areas of the PvE game. In any case, AoE scatter occurs in PvP matches, as well, and "NPC Hate" harkens back to 6 team Burial Mounds matches. Any one is lying if he or she says he never sat back and watched two teams decimate each other before swooping in for the kill. I do agree with you on the difficulty of most PvE encounters, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

There is no need to have someone who does both have the opportunity to merely create a situation that one exclusive group is asking for. The unlocking issue only applies to those who pvp anyway. The point is to have them on a relative even playing field, not tilted in favor of one style over another. The current game mechanics merely reflect a runner's playstyle and not really experiencing the game or exploring it at all. Just follow the green arrow, dont read any of the text, and bring your favorite run buffs and you are fine for the most part. For people trying to enjoy the game with other people and do not always play within their own guilds, having a diverse playing field of people who are not just trying to go from point a->b is a far better situation. Removing the reason that caters to one style of play over another is just as much of a game balance issue as any kind of skill rebalancing done over time.

A good point, balanced only by the fact that there are still players playing through the game legitimately. However, the above circumstance is certainly valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I guess that people are simply incapable of learning anything where you come from by having something to learn with. While true knowledge only comes from studying others who went ahead and unlocked everything initially and tryed it out first hand then posted their results. Forced baby steps is meaningless, because everyone learns at a different pace. Some can grasp complicated issues quickly, while others cannot. There will be people who will grasp the capabilities of each new profession and skill combination and find any possible exploits with them before the majority of the player base even knows it exists. This always happens and creating a situation where one group will not aquire them drastically faster will help ease out the re-balancing that is sure to come over the next few months. You can look at the current skill revision history of skill changes versus preference in metagame if you want a good reference.

First of all, watch your tone. You don't want to open the box. At no point have I been disrespectul for uncivil, I expect you to do the same.

I've seen "True Knowledge" referenced a few times in this thread, and the only efforts to define it have been based entirely on personal opinions. Anyway, as far as your point goes, it seems as though you're saying that a drastic allocation of skills causes a rift in the playerbase that results in skill balance changes to counter the metagame. Since PvE players don't propose a threat to the PvP metagame, it seems you're saying that alotting PvP players a drastic increase in skills would be terrible for the metagame, since it would grant them a distinct advantage over their only competition, those who play both PvE and PvP. I'm sure this isn't what you meant, so please revise the above for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

My scenario also does not pinpoint pve exclusive players. Merely players who exploit the current ability to store skill points for rapid aquisition and use them for pvp. This is what people did before faction was introduced btw, while being run through the existing game. A exclusive pve player doesnt affect anyone, but themselves. You are also assuming single character storage for the skill points, which does not have to be the case as well.

Yes, this was the issue before faction was introduced. Before faction was introduced. Due to the current cost of skill points, there's little reason to spread large numbers of points over large numbers of characters. Prior to the adjustments, this would have been the case. While some players are hoarding the skill points and the gold to be able to unlock an entire new class, these players are in the minority, and the minority hardly justifies an entire account unlock for another branch of players for the sake of competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

No it wont. If the goal is to be fast and efficient with them you would go with your usual group to avoid any slow downs, then take all the goodies you unlocked into a semi controlled environment like 4v4 TA and test it or the new additions to the guild hall for practice. Then bring in an altered 8v8 to incorporate the new skills/builds and go from there. There is no need to dillute that with anyone outside of the people within your guild.

Unless the people in your guild don't yet have the skills necessary, in which case you dip into the appropriately equipped playerbase. Both our cases here are hypothetical, so there's really no room for argument on either side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I seem to get the impression that you think that the current skills used are the result of people not knowing how to use the rest of them. The reason why they are used is directly due to how effective they are and that there is no real alternative in many instances. Expect the people who create builds to knock out the skill aquisition first through pve and then take those into pvp and take advantage of everyone else that did not go the same route until everyone else catches up. (To clarify, aquire from pve, then use in pvp not aquire in pve, use in pve, then play pvp) This is how the meta game works, and has worked through previous patches and revisions.

So the hardcorp PvP'ers are going to PvE to unlock the common skills...and then they're going to use their faction to unlock the elite skills, superior runes, and weapon upgrades applicable to the new classes. Meanwhile, the exclusive PvP'ers will be playing with the new classes and gradually attaining skills, effectively gaining a leg up on their soon to enter "better equipped" competition. In whatever case, if guilds are as well equipped as your previous point alluded, said guilds should have no problem GvG'ing and garnering the large amounts of faction there that literally let one fly through the unlocking process.

And if your guild isn't that well equipped, just "join another guild." Man, where do I keep hearing that? (No Phades, that's not from your mouth, and I'm not paraphrasing you. I respect your ability to confront your debate thoughtfully and with concise English and understandable grammar. That's a rarity.)

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

I'm sorry, I couldn't find the green text that says this in the OP.....could you point out where Gaile says this please?

i missed the screen shot, but I did ask her about nerfing IWAY and she did say ballance changes were comming in reply.

reboot · Jan 10, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Don't know if you have played much PvE, but this is how it works:

Buying skills with skill points or money is quite expensive, that's why many players are reluctant to unlock skills they currently are not sure if they really need them. That's especially true for secondary class skills. You can't buy all skills from all 5 secondary classes for all toons you have - not even the most dedicated farmers have that much money. It's 1k of gold per skill and there are 400 of them in total. Like 60 of them can be quested, but they rest you have to buy. Also remember, in PvE only the CHARACTER gets the skill, not the account. If your monk has Mend Ailment, your Ele still has to buy it, if wants that skill, too

Most PvE toons have all primary class skills and a select few from secondary classes. This is why it's a good idea to keep some skill points in case you need a new skill for PvP. And yes, some skills don't make the slightest sense in PvE but are cool in PvP (like Infuse Health). That's why PvE toons usually don't have them unless they go into PvP.

I guess you have a very low opinion of PvE, but many PvE players use a LOT of different builds according to the area they plan to go in. I don't know any dedicated PvE player who never changes their skillbar.

hmm sorry to come off that way, I beat the game with 8 chars to unlock skills before faction came out, and I really hate PvE game play. PvE players are fine with me, I like them, except when they troll PvP posts with nonsence and they never make a point or shut up. Its really annoying to have people try to ruin a thread that dosen't even effect them, and for no reason at all. To bad some of them give you all a bad name.