Curse

LightningHell · Jan 03, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Unh, my SoJ spike again.

This time, I'm going REAL crazy

4x Mo/Me Prot/Spike
4x Mo/Me Heal/Spike

So, 4 teams, each consisting of one Prot/Spike and one Heal/Spike. Split up.

Heal/Spike:
Divine Favor: 7 +1
Healing Prayers: 8 +1
Smiting Prayers: 12 +3 +1
Inspiration: 8

Orison of Healing
Signet of Judgement
Mantra of Signets
Mantra of Inscriptions
Signet of Devotion
Dwayna's Kiss
Healing Touch
Resurrection Signet (2 of them)/Banish(?) (the other two)

Prot/Spike:
Divine Favor 7 +1
Protection Prayers: 8 +1
Smiting Prayers: 12 +3 +1
Inspiration: 8

Protective Bond (Each person only bonds 2 people, so I guess it's alright?)
Signet of Judgement
Mantra of Signets
Mantra of Inscriptions
Mend Ailment
Aegis (2 prots)/Smite Hex (the other 2 prots)
Blessed Signet
Resurrection Signet

I'll talk more later.

Rico Carridan · Jan 03, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I don't like the idea of splitting your team up. It's too easy for something to go wrong. It also clearly makes no sense to have your healers and protectors separated into two groups. If you have to split, take two of each. Otherwise, well, your life bonds won't work, your aegis won't work, etc. Now, you will also note that if you split you probably won't get complete aegis coverage either, since you will only then have 1 aegis per group. Most people would probably run life bonds rather than protective anyway.... I guess prot bonds could work, since your signet stuff will help ease your energy pains. Now, that said, let's look at it for a moment if you don't split up, since most maps, particularly in tombs, there isn't enough room for it to be viable. Now, I don't mean that you should ball up either, just a compact group idea.

First off, for your protectors, you probably want mend ailment instead of condition, since this allows you to treat yourself. I suppose you could argue that you have enough protectors that this isn't a problem, but in my experience as a monk, it is far better to count on yourself than on someone else if you have the choice. I would also swap shielding hands out for smite hex, since you have no other hex removal, and the damage from smite hex at 16 is actually pretty significant. Actually, it could be downright destructive. I still also think you might want to look at holy strike as a followup to your spike, but that's up to you.

Defensively, it will still be tricky. If you do decide to run protective bonds, (as opposed to life bonds), your protectors can expect to lose 4 energy every time one of their targets is hit. If the enemy focus fires a little bit, they could run out of energy very quickly. Once your protectors are out of energy, or if they start dying, your team will fall apart. For your healers, since your healing and divine values are both pretty low, you might want to swap out sig of devotion for divine boon, so you can do some power healing. Downside to that is the energy burn is much higher. I would suggest putting channeling into the build, but there isn't really anywhere it could fit that wouldn't compromise you too much. If your healers were organized, I suppose you could limit the energy burn pretty well just by making sure you don't get multiple heals to the same target to limit overhealing.

Now, as for the general power of your spike, well... against any balling team, trapper team, whatever, minion team (double damage against minions!), you should have no significant problems. This is really the ideal case for you. They can't possibly hope to interrupt all of your SoJ, so they will have to scatter and hope for the best. If I recall correctly, the range on SoJ is pretty big, so unless you get really unlucky, you shouldn't have too many problems here.

Now, I think my earlier concern was that you would have a hard time against IWAY teams. In your present form, you will probably have a reasonable chance against them, as long as you're reasonably quick about it. If you can draw them in, you may have a shot at dropping a good number of the warriors in one go. The problem will be if your spike fails, and you have to wait for the ~20 seconds (assuming you've got inscriptions on, which you should, of course) for your next spike, you may start running into energy problems, since you will have to contend with the increased attack speed of the warriors from whatever deaths were incurred, the traps, and worst, whatever the necros can throw at your with regard to wells, since you have no corpse control. It's a delicate balance because you will need to be spread out enough to avoid the problems from the necros, but close enough to be able to heal and spike effectively. I don't remember offhand what the attack distance on SoJ is, but I don't think it is terribly large.

Other teams, well, it will depend. Obviously, any team that has heavy interrupts, like a ranger spike, will give you a lot of grief. Enchantment removal is a big problem too, and other spikes may give you pain since you aren't running protective spirit. Teams that are able to function very well spread out will give you the most trouble, since they will really be able to limit the damage you will be able to inflict. Obviously, again, you will be basically hopeless on any relic run type situations, but that isn't a huge problem, I guess, since those scenarios aren't terribly common.

Of course, if you happen to be unlucky enough to meet a team that uses rust, panic, ignorance, or primal echoes, you could run into some fairly significant problems. Of those, I've only ever seen panic used in PvP, and its effect would be frustrating, but not showstopping.

As a last thought, does arcane mimickry work with signets or only spells? Since you're mesmer secondaries, you might be able to steal yourself another SoJ from your allies.

Rico

LightningHell · Jan 03, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Arcane Mimicry only works with spells. I was thinking of putting that in.

I put two mantras in. (Putting Signets on first, then after the first spike, put Inscriptions for better recharge after the second spike.)

What if I wasn't running Prot Spirit? I'm running Protective Bond, remember. I'm thinking of Life Bond...

The 2P teams I'm trying to slip in are Healer+Protector, so they're actually evenly distributed. It's 4 groups, by the way.

Rico Carridan · Jan 03, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Arcane Mimicry only works with spells. I was thinking of putting that in.

That's a shame, it would really help here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

What if I wasn't running Prot Spirit? I'm running Protective Bond, remember. I'm thinking of Life Bond...

Well, the deal with protective spirit is that (similar to infuse health), it can be used to save an ally who's being spiked, if you get a hint of warning. The problem with prot bond, in comparison, is that, aside from the energy problems, is that enchantment removal team will happily remove it, and you won't have time to get it back up before you get spiked because of the ugly 2 second casting time. Life bond is quite popular... in theory protective bond is a better spell, but the -3 energy per hit is pretty significant. Since you aren't carrying many bonds, you might be able to get away with this, I don't know, might be worth a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The 2P teams I'm trying to slip in are Healer+Protector, so they're actually evenly distributed. It's 4 groups, by the way.

Hmm, ok, I misread that from your initial post. I'm not sure why you have your heart set on groups--usually it plays against you rather than for you. Your groups have to be close together anyway, remember, because you're going to need to be able to have monks from one group heal the others, and everyone needs to help with the spikes. Do you want the groups doing different jobs? Or do you have something else in mind for your splitting up?

Rico

Mosgerion · Jan 04, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Well, I can certainly offer one smidgen of adivice. Ressurection signet is not needed on all eight members of your team, I believe.

In those slots you could use energy management (Something basic, like Channeling for a cover enchantment, or Ether Tap) Spirit of Failure might work as well to combine with Aegis, though, of course, hex removal is quite heavy in HoH.

I'm not too sure about Mantra of Signets either. Granted, that's from my brief days as a zero energy Holy Wrath/Signet monk (6 of 8 skills were signets! Well, including Ressurection Signet.-plug- Go look under the over-long topic with the word 'bling' in it under the Monk Forum -/plug-), but the 15 energy will certainly bite if you want to keep bonds up.

What about Bane Signet? Some extra damage to follow up can't be all that bad, right?

Anyway, my two cents. Good luck trying it out!

LightningHell · Jan 04, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

I was thinking about some other extra damage, but definitely not Bane Signet. Not with that 2-second cast time.

Rico, I don't really want the team to split up so much, I need them to be able to split up, though. Possibly to roundup the opponents for the spike. Or, if a group or two get killed, the rest of the team has to be able to survive.
Hmm...casters are hard to round up, though...

I (nearly desperately) need that mantra, mainly because SoJ, like most other signets, have an absolutely horrible recharge.

I'm too lazy to update for the moment. I'm save it for 2 hours later.

Rico Carridan · Jan 04, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Interesting idea... what if you had one guy not take Signet of Judgement, and take Echo instead as his elite? Then the rest of the team uses arcane mimickry to steal echo. That gives you three shots of SoJ per spike instead of two, I guess. The energy cost would be getting pretty significant at that point, you'd need something to be able to make up for that.

In elaboration you use:
7x Arcane mimickry
7x Echo
7x SoJ (regular one)
7x Mantra of Signets
7x SoJ (echoed one)
7x SoJ (mantra one)

Since you're losing one SoJ, you only have a net gain of 5 more casts, at the painful cost of 35 energy to your seven spikers.... Hmm... that probably wouldn't work with your current setup, you'd need to be able to recover a lot of energy, fairly quickly. Maybe if the last person was N/Me running blood rituals and echo as his elite?

Rico

LightningHell · Jan 04, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

The N/Me one won't work, since then they would have no points in Smiting Prayers, right?

Arcane Mimicry needs Spells. Too bad, no signets.

I'm still trying to devise a way to survive CTFs...

LightningHell · Jan 06, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

...any other opinions or suggestions?

Or in other words, a bump.

This doesn't obstruct rules and regulations, right?

Divine Elemental · Jan 06, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

How Bout...

1 R/W
Dolyak Signet
Quickening Zephyr
Frozen Soil
Ressurection Signet
Oath Shot
Dust Trap
Barb Trap
Flame Trap

2x Mo/W
SoJ
Banish
Bane Sig
Shields Up
Watch Yourself
Ressurection Signet
Heal Area
Healing Seed
Symbol of Wrath

1 Mo/Me
Life Bond
Balthazars Spirit
Blessed Signet
Restore Condition
Mend Ailment
Guardian
RoF
Holy Veil

1 Mo/Me
Orison
Dwaynas Kiss
Heal Area
Healing Seed
Ressurection Signet
Holy Veil
Shield of Deflection
Heal Other

2x Mo/E
Ward Against Melee / Ward Against Elements
Healing Seed
SoJ
Banish
Bane Signet
Symbol of Wrath
Ressurection Signet
Heal Area

1 Mo/N
SoJ
Bane Signet
Infuse Health
Banish
Ressurection Signet
OOB
Healing Seed
Heal Area

Thats. Good
Anti Iway [Wards/Shield of Deflection]
Anti Ranger Spike [Shields Up!!/Shield of Deflection]
Anti Me [ Well Not Really ^^ ]
Enjoy

LightningHell · Jan 06, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

^^

The problem is, SoJ has a horrible damage for a single-spell spike, and horrible recharge, too. It's not your Obsidian Flame Spike, which causes some 119 at 15-6 Earth, SoJ deals 79 damage per person. Therefore all 8 people are needed.

Divine Elemental · Jan 06, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

^^

The problem is, SoJ has a horrible damage for a single-spell spike, and horrible recharge, too. It's not your Obsidian Flame Spike, which causes some 119 at 15-6 Earth, SoJ deals 79 damage per person. Therefore all 8 people are needed.

..

lol
The Recharge + QZ = GG
No Need Mo/Me

ive done this with FoSa.. they held hoh for 13 too

79 + Banish Follow ( Estimated to 50 ) So Thats... = 139 Damage?
GG Have 4 Peopel ? Enough To Take Down Target
4 Spikers Would be Enough....
What Are U Talking About..
with your build ur gonna get raped by IWAY + RANGER SPIKE

add me to ur Yahoo Messenger
thatll be easier to explain.
[email protected]

LightningHell · Jan 06, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Oh, i never noticed Banish. Nice, then.

I'd like to know how I would get raped by IWAY, though.

I haven't got Yahoo Messenger.

Divine Elemental · Jan 06, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Oh, i never noticed Banish. Nice, then.

I'd like to know how I would get raped by IWAY, though.

I haven't got Yahoo Messenger.

ud get rocked by iway
by not having any Dodge Etc.

Aegis will be good for 7 secs or so.
since ur most likely gonna be a ball
its better if u have a Aegis + Ward
also if aegis goes down u wont get rocked
since u rely on Healing Area + i added a Bonder to take less dmg from anything

if i didnt add the mo/w ud get rocked by Ranger Spike.
>_>

eh PM Me?

LightningHell · Jan 06, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

I have one rather extreme strat, that involves people 2 teams to die, and the other 2 teams to survive.

Let the 2 teams die, let the enemy advance, rez the 2 dead teams, then surround them + 2 SoJs. On the healers first, if the others manage not to die then we don't have to worry about healing. Then comes 2 more SoJs. This might be too situational though. What if the enemy casters refuse to be rounded up? Well, I guess put one on a group of casters, one on their Warriors (if there are little, round them up near one surviving enemy caster and then SoJ for them both), then wipe out the remnant. Well, it is quite situational. Guess you have to be a little flexible.

Maybe Symbol of Wrath for some area control?

Divine Elemental · Jan 06, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I have one rather extreme strat, that involves people 2 teams to die, and the other 2 teams to survive.

Let the 2 teams die, let the enemy advance, rez the 2 dead teams, then surround them + 2 SoJs. On the healers first, if the others manage not to die then we don't have to worry about healing. Then comes 2 more SoJs. This might be too situational though. What if the enemy casters refuse to be rounded up? Well, I guess put one on a group of casters, one on their Warriors (if there are little, round them up near one surviving enemy caster and then SoJ for them both), then wipe out the remnant. Well, it is quite situational. Guess you have to be a little flexible.

Maybe Symbol of Wrath for some area control?

Symbol of Wrath is used for IWAY also Area Control ^^
as it drops em like Flies
Expecting 35 x 5 Per 5 Secs = GG

Your First Plan.. eh Not So Sure Srry

LightningHell · Jan 06, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Not really the first, just a really extreme and weird one.

LightningHell · Feb 05, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Okay, sorry for doublepost. Maybe not, since this is aeons ago.

Apparently, Arcane Mimicry also works on non-spells. Therefore, I can do a lot better than this now

Sorry for reviving old thread.