Curse

Phades · Feb 09, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Regardless of what it can or can not do now, i always found it amusing when i bumped into one using an assassin durring the preview event. 1 expunge enchantments and they became dead very fast. Multiple people running drain enchantments will quickly end anything that relys on sustained enchantments like this without too much difficulty as well.

Basically, unless it refreshes like a monk enchantment, i wouldnt rely upon it in the long term in pvp. However, i do not think that this can begin to be a replacement for the standard gale warriors out there. The thing is, the warrior acts as both pressure and shutdown, while the necro does not. This is more of an issue with gale, opposed to the warrior, but it exists.

Symbol · Feb 09, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

You can bury the key skills (AOTL and Dark Aura) deep in enchantments pretty easily. Blood renewal is an automatic cover. Balthazar's spirit is another. And blood ritual brings the total up to 3.

You really need rend or people running things like GoR + shatter/drain to really hurt this build via enchant removal.

The main problem is if you run it solo energy management is an issue. But that's true of all caster builds relying on spell spamming. I'm growing increasingly irritated by the fact that almost all non-elite energy management in this game blows, but there it is.

Phades · Feb 09, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Yeah, but then you are spending nearly half your energy pool "covering" the freshly cast enchantments, if they werent interupted. How exactly do you plan to do damage?

Inspiration skills are typically "best" at energy recovery outside of elietes. To be fair though, they are basically one of the only non-eliete sources of energy recovery. Well inspiration and a zealous weapon really.

Also, i dunno about you, but blood ritual states that it cannot be used on the caster, so if you are including yet another necro into this picture to just make 1 build work then you are really trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Symbol · Feb 09, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Yeah, but then you are spending nearly half your energy pool "covering" the freshly cast enchantments, if they werent interupted. How exactly do you plan to do damage?

Blood renewal is an intrinsic part of the build and only 5 energy. No big deal. Balthazar's spirit is maintained. Blood ritual GIVES you energy.

mortalis doleo · Feb 09, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Also, i dunno about you, but blood ritual states that it cannot be used on the caster, so if you are including yet another necro into this picture to just make 1 build work then you are really trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

two of these are better than one, since the damage is greater and if one is shut down, the pressure is still on the enemy team.

also, i would advise the necros to get a blood staff with +20% enchants...

Phades · Feb 10, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Blood renewal is an intrinsic part of the build and only 5 energy. No big deal. Balthazar's spirit is maintained. Blood ritual GIVES you energy.

With the list of enchantments you gave, you are spending 50e on just enchantments in preperation to do anything. With balthazar's spirit you are sacrificing 1 pip of regen in to cover your enchantments and only gain energy in the event that your oppoenent acts like npcs and doesnt have any enchantment removal. For each time you are stripped you are spending 5-10 (or more)additional energy to recover yourself, while your oppoenent is either rendering you useless, gaining 8-9 energy, or dealing 106 damage potentially halved by aura of the lich. This doesn't even go into sustaining the build with refreshing aura of the lich and dark aura over time. The blood ritual gives someone else additional energy, not yourself and that person must be touched. Even if 2 necros were using mirrored builds to give each other energy, they are only netting 2 positive pips of regen due to balthazar's spirit. Furthermore, for the skill slot of using blood ritual in such a manner you are getting effectivly 1/3rd the regeneration of ether prodigy for 2 seconds less at 16 blood, versus 11 energy storage, while spending twice the energy to use it and twice the casting time. Even more than that, you are spending your entire build to attempt to sustain doing damage, while warriors and rangers can do damage through pressure and spike while performing other functions like applying snares, interupts, or shutdown like gale. This is in addition to the downtime spent renewing the enchantments for the build.

The build isnt that hard to take apart even in comp arenas and is no where near the resiliance that the old style ether renewal had using a similar amount of space devoted to enchantments enhancing the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortalis doleo

two of these are better than one, since the damage is greater and if one is shut down, the pressure is still on the enemy team.

also, i would advise the necros to get a blood staff with +20% enchants...

Considering what other builds do in addition to damage, many would argue that none of these are better than one or two. It is conditional pressure damage that has no spike capability, unlike warriors or rangers.

Glasswalker · Feb 10, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

First off, but forgive my ignorance. What is GoR?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yeah, but then you are spending nearly half your energy pool "covering" the freshly cast enchantments, if they werent interupted. How exactly do you plan to do damage?

Inspiration skills are typically "best" at energy recovery outside of elietes. To be fair though, they are basically one of the only non-eliete sources of energy recovery. Well inspiration and a zealous weapon really.

Also, i dunno about you, but blood ritual states that it cannot be used on the caster, so if you are including yet another necro into this picture to just make 1 build work then you are really trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Personally, I like having the regen pips instead of the set amount that Mesmer non-elites give you. The drawback is that it can't be used on the caster. That's why there are two.

As far as my covering enchantments go, they are doing damage because of Dark Aura. 45 damage per skill -- not too bad. That is actually the point of this build. It has 3 sources of Energy Management: Soul Reaping, Consume Corpse, and Blood Ritual (which costs 10 I'm afraid, not 5

). 6 skills on each of these bars are Sacrificial, which means with Dark Aura up (and you have to dig realllly deep to kill it), every cast causes AoE damage. So that means the trick to this build (and granted, it really is a trick) is to stay within range of your target. If you can manage it, the damage you can do is substantial and unblockable. The splash damage is all just extra. It helps to task the Monks, and it means your next target goes down that much quicker, but it isn't necessary. 5 of those skills are offensive as well, so it isn't as if it is only relying upon the one skill. In the listed 13 seconds there are 9-10 individual sources of damage -- plus what comes from OoP -- per Necro. That is plenty to overpower Protective Spirit on 2 individuals. Then add in what the rest of the team is doing.

Blood Renewal, Aura of the Lich and Consume Corpse are keeping us alive, usually without issue, and that is before our Monks come into it. So, 3 heals, 3 sources of energy regen and 6 damage-dealing skills. If anyone said this without showing you the skill bar, you'd have to say it was a hack, wouldn't you? These guys kick @$$. Get some skilled players behind it, and you can go far. Will it change the course of Guild Wars? No, I don't think so. But is it an answer to those who say there are no options? Yes, I believe it is.

Your last statement is just plain odd though. Does this imply that any build with 2 Warriors is wrong? Or that while planning things, I shouldn't account for teamwork? Both builds work (alone or together), and in the end, they have energy to spare. Take a look at them and do the numbers yourself.

Mortalis Your recommendation on the staff is duly noted. I actually have a Truncheon/Cesta combo that I have a hard time parting with in Weapon Slot 2.

Phades · Feb 10, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

First off, but forgive my ignorance. What is GoR?

GoR would be glyph of renewal. I dont know why you would use a 15s skill to refresh a 20s skill, but i guess it could be done. As for the rest, see above your post.

Four Pool Rush · Feb 10, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Listen to Phades, this build is really trying hard to force itself into accomplishing high damage output when realistically it just wont ever do that.

First of all you must recognize that the build is a huge energy hog and is based off an enchantment stack. While enchantment stacks are hard to fight through, ONE character that solely depends on enchantments to be somewhat of a threat is easy to smash.

Secondly your build needs speed buffs badly. No necro is going to survive melee based combat without a speed buff, AoTL or not. Of course this assumes we are talking about decent level GvG combat because anything else would be pointless(based on the original post).

Third, you need snares. Which presents a fundamental problem with the build: You need to add in support characters to make the necros work. Without them, the necros don't do anything, and the support characters are just that-support. Do you see where this can become a hassle? A build that relies on Sac-necros to keep targets under pressure has a lot of difficulty to overcome before even getting on the battlefield. You cant just take a build, calculate some numbers and go off thinking it'll win.

Fourth, including 2 of these guys that have to blood ritual each other is going to be a nightmare to pull off effectively. My suggestion is if you really have to use this character, make only one of them. Maybe they'll become better when Water Eles can actually go on full support mode, but until then they are really a bad choice for too many reasons.

Glasswalker · Feb 10, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

AotL costs me 10, Dark Aura costs me 10. That's 20 not 50. Balthazar's Spirit is someone else's build, and with the current Energy in the build, I don't think it's necessary. The other skills are used in battle, and cause damage:

-ToA does 105 damage (45 AoE)
-Dark Pact does 95 damage (45 AoE)
-Blood Renewal does -- you guessed it -- 45 damage(AoE).
-Signet of Agony (89 AoE) or OoP adds 17 to all physical damage for 5 seconds and does 45 AoE.
-ToA is ready again -- 105 (45 AoE)
-Dark Pact 95 (45 AoE)

-Blood Ritual should be inserted as necessary. (45 AoE). Without BR, that's 25-35 Energy. An extra 10 per BR, but then you have to work out 3 extra regen pips. +7 Energy from SR, and 8 net from CC. Rinse, repeat.

As far as Ether Prodigy goes, how much would it cost this build to put 11 points into Energy Storage instead of the 16 BM I already have? Not to mention that I would lose the ability to stick my extra points in SR. Add to this the fact that it isn't a Sacrifice skill, so I lose the damage. Then I take away my Elite spot. I'm afraid that is not an option. It's a fine skill, no doubt, but not part of this build.

You are right, this build only does damage. I actually stated that as one of its weaknesses. But the damage it does is equal to Warrior spike easily, so that comparison is unfair. Snares, Interrupts and Shutdown, I will have to rely on my teammates for. I'm not happy with that, but I'm not finished tweaking yet. I might still figure something out. As I've said though, there is no down time with this. Two of those enchantments still cause damage. The other two last for at least 2 skill cycles.

One other thing -- it's Elementalists that bring Gale. Warriors often have El secondaries, but on a Profession and Skill comparison, you can't say that Warriors have Gale.

Phades · Feb 10, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

AotL costs me 10, Dark Aura costs me 10. That's 20 not 50. Balthazar's Spirit is someone else's build, and with the current Energy in the build, I don't think it's necessary. The other skills are used in battle, and cause damage:

In short, you are more vulnerable to enchantment removal than the guy spending 50e on layering enchantments. You have less down time to renew though. The moment you start using OoP, you are going to lose whatever melee distance you had for your "sustained damage nuke build" throwing your dps into the toilet. At which point your comparison against warrior damage is null. If you are going for utility that is fine, but you would be better off with ranged nukes so that you didnt have to balance your time between chasing and casting. At which point the entire life sacrifice to deal damage side of the build begs as to why its there in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

-Blood Ritual should be inserted as necessary. (45 AoE). Without BR, that's 25-35 Energy. An extra 10 per BR, but then you have to work out 3 extra regen pips. +7 Energy from SR, and 8 net from CC. Rinse, repeat.

Ok good, now you are chasing the enemy and your allies and using 2 seconds of time to do so, while your dps continues to fall through the floor. Anyone wouldnt just walk away from you in 2s it takes to cast that, i mean that would just be silly if they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

As far as Ether Prodigy goes, how much would it cost this build to put 11 points into Energy Storage instead of the 16 BM I already have? Not to mention that I would lose the ability to stick my extra points in SR. Add to this the fact that it isn't a Sacrifice skill, so I lose the damage. Then I take away my Elite spot. I'm afraid that is not an option. It's a fine skill, no doubt, but not part of this build.

Its a relative comparison of a skill slot devoted to a utility character such as you are attempting to propse. If eles have issues with better energy recovery skills, why do you think necros fair any better? The only instance where you are comparable energy wise is if people are dying, but considering the damage with disruption is sub par compared to ranger or the favored warrior means i do not see what you are getting at here at all. The theoretical dps is nice and all, but unlike warriors there are start up and cool down times in addition to all the failings energy has compared to adrenalin on top of energy constraints if you are unable to make kills unassisted.

Basically you are making alot of your comparisons against a warrior that doesn't use energy for anything other than frenzy and never uses adrenalin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

You are right, this build only does damage. I actually stated that as one of its weaknesses. But the damage it does is equal to Warrior spike easily, so that comparison is unfair. Snares, Interrupts and Shutdown, I will have to rely on my teammates for.

It compares to warrior sustained damage, not the spike capability. You would have to compare it against the frenzy dps, including damage skills, other buffs, and while the target is knocked down from gale that the warriors alternate in using. In short you are forcing your team to use 2 slots, one for damage and one for disruption while the warrior equivilant requires only one. This allows for other slots such as the heal party/blinding flash spam guy (who also has gale), the me/e gale/blackout guy(who has other "standard" mesmer tricks), or other "utility" characters that further augment the team and do not need to focus on the target that the warriors are working on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

One other thing -- it's Elementalists that bring Gale. Warriors often have El secondaries, but on a Profession and Skill comparison, you can't say that Warriors have Gale.

W/E have gale. I dont think you can really debate that. Just like Mo/N have offering of blood. Unless gale begins to have a energy storage requirement they are going to continue to use it. That is basically the standard you have to compare it against. It has high sustained damage, high spike damage, combined with disruption.

mortalis doleo · Feb 10, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

bringing along fertile season and symbiosis (two spirits used a lot for altar holding) would give these necros (and the team) a great boost.

the necromancers would have A LOT of hp, and the enemy team wont gain anything from the fertile season armor bonus, since the damage ignores armor.

glountz · Feb 10, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortalis doleo

bringing along fertile season and symbiosis (two spirits used a lot for altar holding) would give these necros (and the team) a great boost.

the necromancers would have A LOT of hp, and the enemy team wont gain anything from the fertile season armor bonus, since the damage ignores armor.

*

Yes but it decreases the effect of Regen from BR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

W/E have gale. I dont think you can really debate that. Just like Mo/N have offering of blood. Unless gale begins to have a energy storage requirement they are going to continue to use it. That is basically the standard you have to compare it against. It has high sustained damage, high spike damage, combined with disruption.

I wouldn't enter again in this discussion, but being a primary warrior, I can tell you that warrior's DPS are FAR more CONDITIONNAL than people would want to admit.
I barely land more than 75% of my hits when I play a warrior, and yet, when the opponent brought mid to few warrior hate. Spike attacks from warriors are terrible.... But only when they land...
Blind, cripple, Enchantments (guardian, RoF), Stances, hex (not many cause of HoD helm) will reduce warrior's effectiveness a lot whereas It's a lot difficult to mitigate saccer's one. If you don't have, well, support characters (ironically...), warriors are simply too easily shut down. So the "warrior's uberness" rely on your... support characters, that is to say their ability to remove conditions/enchants. Once the HoD helm will be fixed, hex warrior hate will come back (I do not see many anti W hexes nowadays) and their job will be even more difficult.
Gale needs to be fixed by linking KD time to Air attribute (12 for 3 seconds KD).
This necro build is correct. People are prepared to fight gale warriors because of its popularity so they bring warrior hate, and doing so they generally lack any way to fight saccers.
Saccer's build suffer from big flaws but rare are the teams bringing anti-saccer's skill, like rend enchant. They rely on Drain/Shatter enchant which are not sufficient skills to take down a saccer (especially when only one character on the opposite team wear this skills).
I admit this build won't win many Top GvG battles, but it is a pleasant way to change from the common Iway/GaleWay/WarriorWay builds.
And ultimately, you forget the splash damage from this build. You can hit multiple target, and tight groups, like warrior squads, suffer a lot from Saccer's attack. And finally, if it lacks from side effects (KD, conditions, etc...), this build does more damage than a common warrior's one.

BannyD · Feb 10, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

as a mostly monker, i find saccers -much- more of a threat than warriors. these things can completely destroy my teammates in a matter of seconds and are quite difficult to heal against. granted..warriors can take down targets in a matter of seconds too...but i am always ready with a guardian or shield of deflection to half, if not completely mitigate their potential.

so normally when im scanning through the enemies and i see someone running dark aura, i immediately alert my teammates. this character -must- be snared and shutdown...or...killed extremely quickly with vampiric qualities (AoTL doesnt help vs that)

Four Pool Rush · Feb 10, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

there is no necro build that is even remotely scary as compared to Eviscerate+whatever. Ask any monk that is in a PvP oriented guild that plays vs a lot of good teams and they will tell you sacrifice necros are not even a threat.

Do not bring Fertile Season if you're playing Sac necs, you lose more hp per sacrifice while your damage doesnt quite jump through the roof. It's just stupid.

Phades · Feb 10, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I barely land more than 75% of my hits when I play a warrior, and yet, when the opponent brought mid to few warrior hate.

The support on your team is not doing their job. The point of monk and monk alternatives is to keep people running and condition removal is alot easier than enchantment and hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Blind, cripple, Enchantments (guardian, RoF), Stances, hex (not many cause of HoD helm) will reduce warrior's effectiveness a lot whereas It's a lot difficult to mitigate saccer's one. If you don't have, well, support characters (ironically...), warriors are simply too easily shut down. So the "warrior's uberness" rely on your... support characters, that is to say their ability to remove conditions/enchants.

The necro setup in question relys on more support characters than the current gale/war setup. The mere presence of the warrior is also causing more of the focus to occur to counter the warriors instead of shutting down the support on the team. It is a dual purpose profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Gale needs to be fixed by linking KD time to Air attribute (12 for 3 seconds KD).

That will change nothing, just put on stone fist guantlets and optimize the attribute for a 2s duration. Until the skill outright fails without energy storage points, this just wont change anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

This necro build is correct. People are prepared to fight gale warriors because of its popularity so they bring warrior hate, and doing so they generally lack any way to fight saccers.

You dont need a specific build setup to fight sacrifice people. You can beat them just like a 55hp monk even if you have zero enchantment removal. Knockdown is just that strong. Having 2-3 sources of single enchantment removal is enough too though, unless the enchantments are many layers deep. In which case the necro has setup and maitnence energy issues, where comparitivly speaking they are doing zero damage durring that time while the warrior is still doing damage and drawing hate while creating disruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

And ultimately, you forget the splash damage from this build. You can hit multiple target, and tight groups, like warrior squads, suffer a lot from Saccer's attack. And finally, if it lacks from side effects (KD, conditions, etc...), this build does more damage than a common warrior's one.

The premis of the original argument in the other thread was that necros dealing damage in this manner was a deturrant or counter to warriors, due to the AL ignoring damage. So, in essence, you are using a necro who deals damage to stop the warriors from using frenzy. In reality, you could just simply use faintheartedness and stop the IAS for periods of time that way instead using only 1 skill slot instead of an entire build. The necro build doesnt replace warriors, i dont think anything can. If you are going for just outright damage from lots of sources, then rangers do that better too. Most of this was brought up in the why nuking sucks thread.

Symbol · Feb 11, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Phades:

Go back and read I have been saying carefully. Balthazar's spirit is NOT merely a cover enchant. It gives you a net energy GAIN because it triggers on dark aura self damage. It would be retarded to sacrifice a pip of regen just for a cover enchant, fortunately no one has suggested that.

Your argument about enchant maintenance is just flat out wrong. With minimal expenditure you can stack it two deep on top of DA. If you don't like balth's spirit, take something like demonic flesh which isn't maintained and lasts for a long time.

I agree that:
a) snaring is a problem
b) energy management is a problem when things aren't dying
c) utility is a problem (mostly because gale is just broken on warriors now).

But enchant removal and enchant maintenance are not problems unless everyone starts carrying multiple enchant removals for each necro or mesmer.

Quote:

GoR would be glyph of renewal. I dont know why you would use a 15s skill to refresh a 20s skill, but i guess it could be done. As for the rest, see above your post.

Uh, because you can use it like echo/arcane echo except that it's more flexible?

The main problem with necro damage builds is, IMO, energy management. Energy management in this game is generally fairly lame. Something considered good (like offering) will give you 3-4 pips effective when used with a maxed blood attribute and fast recharge items, which sounds good until you realize that spamming 5 and 10E spells eats up anywhere from 9 to 12 pips of regen.

And inspiration as an energy regain line is by and large pretty sad. At 12 insp most of the non-elite energy regain skills grant just over a pip of regen, with the notable exception of power leak. Those that grant more are hampered by long cast times and annoying conditions (spirit of failure for ex). Plus, the vast majority of builds can't afford 12 in inspiration anyway.

Phades · Feb 11, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Go back and read about the maitenence times, cost, and overal durability of the build over time.

Symbol · Feb 11, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

You are wrong about maintenance times and cost. I've already gone over this, I'm not going over it again.

Phades · Feb 11, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Simply stated assuming 100% casting an no moving from the moment you cast your enchantment stack following the 8th damage spell, which would be touch of agony and at which point you would be breaking exactly even for the 10e you spent on balthazar's spirit, you would have to renew both blood ritual and renewal assuming you had a 20% enchantment staff wrapping. When this occurs, the necro who is refreshing both is left with 1e assuming an insightful staff head(unless you are using tattoos with an insightful staff head).

For a boon prot monk who has to compensate for this "pressure" damage, he must cast RoF 2 times over the course of those 8 casts to stay alive assuming divine favor of 14 and a protection prayers of 8 and have roughly 200hp left over. For a healing monk without divine boon it would require either 3 self used healing touches or 3 heal others assuming the same level of divine favor and 11 healing prayers and have just over 100hp left.

To say that this build is a warrior substitute is kinda silly considering it cant even kill either the master of healing or protection by its self. A gale enabled warrior however can kill both without any outside aid. This is not even considering the downtime following those 8 casts to refresh the enchantments or the next time dark aura needs to get refreshed midway through the next 8 casts and aura of the lich being refreshed shortly after the second set of skills assuming 100% cast time and no movement and no enchantment removal or energy denial and so on. This is also ignoring the cast/aftercasts of just preperation buffs before you even start to attack. While the warrior is already up in the opponents face doing damage and causing disruption.