Curse

JYX · Feb 10, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

I run a mo/nec OOB prot monk and I'd agree that it has the best energy management but the OP was saying that the rangers were disrupting him. Mo/nec won't help at all against that. He'd still get owned by rangers.

Yeh thats not the only thing he said. He also said he needed to add some decent energy management to the mix, Mo/Nec helps. Even assuming he meant getting interrupted by rangers: Offering is a quarter cast time whereas the others are 1. Basically it means you absolutely cannot be interrupted. That helps. Also I fail to see how using a sub-par Energy Drain with EXACTLY the same cast time as MoR is helping. Also I fail to see what you're agreeing with, I did not say that OoB was the best energy management, I said it was the most efficient single energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

I know the energy management numbers too but you still have to build up 15 energy just to use MoR.

You obviously do not know the numbers. You do not need to build up 15 energy to use MoR, it costs 10 energy, as I have mentioned before I do not feel CoP is absolutely needed here. Also you said that Energy Drain will give "nearly the same", I have demonstrated that mantra of recall gives roughly 175% the energy that energy drain gives. This does not constitute "nearly the same".

All this would point to the idea that you in fact...do not know the energy management numbers, or you choose to ignore them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

I like the skill the first time, but after that when you actually need the energy is just when you can't get it.

If you weren't CoPing this wouldn't be a problem. Just use the energy given back to you from the first time to restart it. 10 energy is not a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

Energy Drain isn't awful, it's the third best and I didn't put it in there to deny the opponent but that's a nice tiny positive whereas 10% health is a tiny negative.

It is awful. No it is not third best. Drain enchant and Inspired Hex are both better than it by virtue that it is not elite. Therefore you can put it together with Word of Healing or whatever else you feel like. Even the elementalist Glyph of Lesser Energy which is unlinked and non elite operates at 91% of Energy Drain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

Whatever, just because you can copy what every monk in the top guilds are using doesn't mean that nothing else is even decent.

No, thats not the reason why it is Energy Drain is no good. Its no good because it gives less than half of the energy that Offering gives and ~75% less energy than mantra gives. It is also not "decent" because it is elite, and there are non elites that almost match it, alowing us to use elite monk spells such as word of healing.

"Copying" is awfuly presumpuous. I have been using mantra of recall from the time they nerfed Energy Drain, not that this remark has anything to do with the topic at hand. If I were more cynical a person, I would interpret this as an attempt to bolster your own flawed assertions by personally discrediting me. But as you said..."Whatever".

BannyD · Feb 10, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

if you want to stay Mo/Me..i would recommend using the non-elite e-management mesmer skills

this is what i run in RA/TA most of the time because im not a fan of OoB (althogh it may be good, sig of humility destroys you)

reversal
sig of devotion
mend ailment
shielding hands (1) CoP (2)
shield of deflection [E]
holy veil (1) divine boon (2) hex breaker (3)
inspired hex
channeling

-for skill tab 1 & 2-
10 inspiration
14 prot (10+1+3)
12 divine favor (11+1)

-for skill tab 3-
10 inspiration
12 prot (8+1+3)
13 divine favor (12+1)
2 domination

i absolutely love this over OoB boon prot. Shield of Deflection allows me to be able to stand in the midst of battle so i can abuse channeling; i purposely try and stand near 3 enemies for best results but less is sometimes all you can get. warriors absolutely hate me with this. all i have to do is stand and cast shield of deflection every 7 seconds and that is all the healing i need to do vs them. vs rangers i do the same thing but try and stay out of their line of sight if possible to reduce my energy costs.

personally i like to run build 1 but you may find yourself having trouble to keep your entire party alive. you should be able to spam away endlessly but even then, you dont heal for that much.

i find this having much better energy management than OoB alone..as long as you do abuse channeling as stated above, however that could just be from my lack of experience with an OoB healer. the only real way to destory this builds e-management is with constant enchant removals. a single shatter will not keep you from putting up channeling in the next 15 seconds (most likely less though), plus you have plenty of cover enchants to bury your management. whereas while running OoB...one inscriptions + humility mesmer (isnt that rare with energy surge builds) could keep you're elite locked endlessly (if they are smart...which is rare)

but thats just my tastes

asdar · Feb 10, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I wasn't trying to attack you, I didn't quote you or anything like that.

MoR has it's drawbacks, that's all I'm saying. OOB isn't going to help you against rangers that's all I'm saying.

Go inspired if you want, I've done it and had success that way too. Heck, go Monk/ele and take armor of earth and a ward against melee if you want. That works most of the time and you don't have to run.

My point is there is more than one way to play monk and win, especially in teams at random arenas, which is where it sounds like he's playing.

Lighten up Francis, you don't own the Mo/Nec build there are a thousand monks out there that use exactly that build. There are also quite a lot of monk builds that will work in 4v4 arenas that aren't the same cookie cutter builds that every top guild uses.

tafy69 · Feb 10, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

I'm not against your idea, but I'd have a couple reasons I wouldn't go that way.

Distortion doesn't help against gale or shock and you have to keep hitting it every five seconds. It's one more bit of confusion when you're trying your best to spam heals. It's in illusion too so you have to either split stat or live with worse results. The good thing is that you completely avoid attacks, but the bad is that you have to always be using it or you're open to interuption or knockdown.
.

Ah but it does, when your getting gale locked by 2 warriors this little skill will save you, it also saves you if the warriors build up adrenaline on your team mates then come your way for the adrenaline spike.

Timofmars · Feb 10, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

For 4v4 arena, I've taken this hybrid build with my monk:

Touch
Kiss
Prot Spirit
Vig Spirit
Healing Breeze (or orison)
Aura of Faith
Contemplation of purity
Mend Ailment

This is a fairly tough build to play, since it works by keeping up enchantments. If you don't keep the enchantments up, you could spend too much energy healing. The enchants actually save you lots of energy. I'd say the build is similar to a boon heal, minus the boon.

The advantage of the build is that it's fairly easy to keep yourself alive, but pre-emtively protecting yourself is key.

Before the fight, and during the fight, you basically try to keep Aura of faith on all the expected targets, expecially yourself. You can keep Aura of faith on 3 people at a time (so you'd cover yourself, the mes, and maybe the ele if you can, leave the warrior or ranger not covered. Also cover any necro who sacrafices). Try to keep vig spirit on everyone. I'll also use vig spirit as a first heal if the target isn't gonna die, since it'll help out long-term. It'll give kiss more healing too. This combo will work well against degen teams, or teams that spread out damage. Anyone who has Aura of faith on them will heal easily. The vig spirit will help them keep up their own health a bit, letting you run around more without healing.

If you find you're facing a spike team, just use prot spirit. Worry less about vig spirit and aura of faith, unless you have the energy for them (a lot of spike groups don't make you use a lot of energy healing, they build up and hit one target quickly).

Usually you'll be the target, so keep AoF on yourself, and when warriors come near, keep prot spirit up. Use healing breeze on yourself also, as so you won't have touch disrupted right when you need a heal. This is especially true when facing kd or gale warriors. I've found much of the time I'll be the only one targeted. So it's actually fairly easy to keep myself alive.

For Hexes, use contemplation only when there is a nasty hex on you. Also keep at least vig spirit on yourself when you expect more hexes after, and of course be quick to use contemplation before a bad hex is covered by another. If you have multiple enchants on yourself, it's not a bad idea to wait for that number of hexes to be put on you so you can remove them all at once.

You may want to switch out vig spirit for something if you're on a team with no warrior or rangers, or other fast attacking builds. Perhaps use holy veil.

asdar · Feb 11, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I like distortion. I didn't mean to put it down. Guess I came across way wrong in this thread.

The only thing I don't like about it is the need to keep hitting it and with an axe warrior with any speed enhancement going is going to drain much needed energy even if you have enough Illusion to knock the drain down to 2 a miss.

It's a good skill and might well be what he's looking for.

My apologies if I offended anyone.

minor · Feb 11, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I see ppl saying that their builds are better then the standard boon prot; while this may be true in RA i have to ask whats the goal of our original poster?
If he s simply looking for faction i would say try all and see what he likes best. However if the idea is to get better and play gvg then play the boon prot.
It may not win quite as much but it will give exp with a build that a lot of ppl run and seems to be in demand.

Studio Ghibli · Feb 11, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

.. in the 4v4 arenas, both Guardian and Pacifism are very useful spells. Mind you, the latter helps if you have a team that understands -not- to attack the target. If you do manage this, you've effectively removed one attacker from combat for at least fifteen seconds.

Midnight Signet, too, I find is very useful.

Offering of Blood is a waste, imo.

But that's because I prefer Midnight Signet.

Shield of Judgement, too. Best way to shift aggro from yourself is to drop an SoJ. Suddenly, those warriors attacking you aren't too keen anymore--and, if they are.. kekeke.

Accurax · Feb 12, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Ok guys thanks for all the help... here's a quick run down of the recent developments with my monk.

First off, ill explain what im trying to acheive.

To start with i'm attempting to gain enough faction to unlock all the skills and runes that im going to need. To do this i am playing only in Random Arena's.

Now, i came accross a build last night that caused the following to happend

1) Every team i joined in over 8 hours of game time allways won at least 3 battles.

2) On 12 seperate occasions teams i joined won 10+ matche's and thus got sent to TA. And on one occasion we managed 21 runs total... allthough i think it was luck more than anything.

3) getting called a fool by one single person because he expected a monk to float behind him when he runs off on his own.... Silly 12 year olds Pish.

Ok, heres the build i was running / tweaking last night... i think its a bit unconventional... and it may only ever work in 4 vs 4.. but here goes.

Prot = 13
heal = 13
Div = 9

(i think... thats pretty close anyway)

Mending-(should give +4 at 13 healing)
Blessed Signet-@ Divine fav 7 it gives 13 energy ... 3 per enchantment so 3x 4 = 12 ... i put any spare points in here too)
Guardian- use when chased, and also when u need time to recast blessed. Also use if someone is taking a pounding
Aieges (sp?) - Spam this as often as you can manage
Remove hex
Mend Ailment - fast recharges fast, also tried Mrtyr + purge.. but the recharge on purge makes that combo close to useless.
healing Touch - self heal
Res Signet

Like i said i did very well with this last night .... despite people leaving the team, we continued to win.

Now, based on my previous experiance of hardley ever winning one battle nevermind 21 in a row (mmm 3000 faction) I can only assume its somthing i was doing right with this build.

I also tried a Bonder Balth combo build, but didnt enjoy anywhere near as much success.

Critique ......?

NatalieD · Feb 12, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

With that build you'd have a hard time healing anyone but yourself. It's just lucky for you that most players in RA can't recognize when it's best to attack someone other than the monk.

Remove Hex, Aegis, and Blessed Signet are all interrupt-bait. A single Distracting Shot could kill your entire energy strategy, and you can't rely on Guardian/Aegis to hold that off forever.

You're using Blessed Signet just to support Mending, but Mending is not a very good skill. You're wasting time and energy to provide weak healing to teammates who may or may not actually need any help.

You have no elite!

I think that build could be improved by replacing Mending with Word of Healing (E), Blessed Signet with Signet of Devotion, and Remove Hex with Holy Veil. (Also rebalance your attributes a bit for higher Divine Favor.) Word of Healing is far more efficient than Mending for patching up your teammates and doesn't require Blessed Signet to maintain it. Signet of Devotion gives you another heal to use when Word or Touch is recharging, and makes up a bit for your lack of energy management. Holy Veil is just plain better than Remove Hex, since it's less interruptable and can be pre-cast at the start of the match.

Accurax · Feb 13, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I did write a really long reply defending this build......

But half way through i though.. why bother .... i fear you may have missed the point ..ive given up on being a PvP healer..... this is a condition removal & aegias spammer ... mending is just a way of maintaining an energy income when its needed... and +4 mending compensates for degen skills.

Thats it.... it does what it says on the box... i do aggree with you that its not the best build.... but it worked really well the other day.

Oh; i didnt take an elite because i decide they all stink ... martyr is my favorite... but i just wish purge conditions had a faster recharge time, at the moment martyr is pointless...<sad looks>

Siliconwafer · Feb 13, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

I wish we all had room for a character as specialised as an evade spammer/condition removal. But we don't. In 4v4, people might dedicate one or two character slots to defensive characters. This means that you have to fit condition removal, hex removal, heals, prots, and energy management spells into 16 slots. The monk has to be well rounded.
So unfortunately, "what it says on the box" doesn't cut it. In CA, when you're being put in random teams, you've got to have a well rounded monk.
So, to your build:
There's nothing that stops high packet damage dealers (e.g. an air elementalist). They're pretty common on arenas. They do more than 8DPS. Your only chance is healing touch, and then you have to waste time moving to touch your ally, which is not very efficient.
Try Word of Healing, RoF or Prot Spirit.

A dom mesmer will have a field day with you. Veil is by far superior to remove hex.

Blessed Signet is not a good choice for energy regain. Unless you use it with Mantra of Inscriptions, it barely compensates for the energy you lose in pips from maintained enchantments.
Try using your secondary; OoB (Necro), Mantra of Inscriptions, Mantra of Recall, Inspired Hex, Drain Enchantment (Mesmer).

Linked to the above point, your energy will cause you all sorts of problems. Spamming a 15e spell every 30 seconds (aroundabouts)? Your only chance against a warrior (which is also a high packet damage dealer) is to spam guardian and Heal touch. Two 5e every 5-ish seconds? With Aegis? With everything else? Blessed signet won't cope, and that warrior will kill someone eventually. Take some energy management.

And again, as NatalieD said, a two second blessed signet is interrupt bait. Even through guardian. Even through Guardian and Aegis. It's almost certain that it's going to be interrupted, and then you're in big trouble.
Don't rely on Blessed Signet; take some alternative energy managements, or try Distortion or Mantra of Resolve.

Cold · Feb 13, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio Ghibli

.. in the 4v4 arenas, both Guardian and Pacifism are very useful spells. Mind you, the latter helps if you have a team that understands -not- to attack the target. If you do manage this, you've effectively removed one attacker from combat for at least fifteen seconds.

Midnight Signet, too, I find is very useful.

Offering of Blood is a waste, imo.

But that's because I prefer Midnight Signet.

Shield of Judgement, too. Best way to shift aggro from yourself is to drop an SoJ. Suddenly, those warriors attacking you aren't too keen anymore--and, if they are.. kekeke.

Ok, Pacifism is a hex, so it will last less then 5 seconds, depending on how busy your monk is. Midnight Signet blinds warrios and so will last probably for about 3 seconds. And Shield of Judgement, well, ok, it'll fix the warrior for some time. But you are not the only target so prepare yourself to "return of the tank", cause if I was that warrior, I'd punish you for been such a smart ass

I saw a monk once in GvG using Mark of Protection. I said "wow" and used shatter enchantment

Cold · Feb 13, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

Mending-(should give +4 at 13 healing)
Blessed Signet-@ Divine fav 7 it gives 13 energy ... 3 per enchantment so 3x 4 = 12 ... i put any spare points in here too)
Guardian- use when chased, and also when u need time to recast blessed. Also use if someone is taking a pounding
Aieges (sp?) - Spam this as often as you can manage
Remove hex
Mend Ailment - fast recharges fast, also tried Mrtyr + purge.. but the recharge on purge makes that combo close to useless.
healing Touch - self heal
Res Signet

You got that far probably because other teams didn't have any monks, or mesmers, or axe warriors, or air nukers, or... well, I think I should stop here. Remove hex is bad. Take Holy Veil or Smite hex. Mending is only useful for pre-Droknar runners. It won't save u from any DD. And I have 1 big question. What are u going to do with something like Backfire+Phantom Pain (Mind Wrack or other cover hex) put on you? And another thing, blood necros will eat you alive with this build. You won't be able to heal yourself for long against Dark Pact/Vampiric Gaze/Shadow Strike spammer.
And yes, Aegis is good... in FoW, but not in PvP

Accurax · Feb 15, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

hmmm, oki.. i think i'm coming up with an idea based on all your suggestions.

Which I am very very very gratefull for.

Thankyou all for taking the time to help

I'll post my new build here sometime 2nite once ive got it set up and working.

Oh.. whats CA??.. RA= random arena's ... TA = Team arena's ??!!?? <confuzzled>

Just one more question ... im assuming everyone is in agreement that Aegis is usefull in FOW but not PVP.... would everyone aggree that i should still take guardian with me?

Siliconwafer · Feb 15, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

CA=Competition arenas=Random Arenas.
Guardian is a fine spell. Aegis has its place, but I wouldn't carry it in 4v4.

FrogDevourer · Feb 15, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

CA stands for Competitive Arena which is the old name of the Random Arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

1) Every team i joined in over 8 hours of game time allways won at least 3 battles.

2) On 12 seperate occasions teams i joined won 10+ matche's and thus got sent to TA. And on one occasion we managed 21 runs total... allthough i think it was luck more than anything.

3) getting called a fool by one single person because he expected a monk to float behind him when he runs off on his own.... Silly 12 year olds Pish.

Sounds like basic RA results you can get with little experience and a random build. As a monk, your victory ratio is not half as relevant as the number of deaths per match, and your flawlesss ratio. Simply put, if nobody died in your team, but if your team failed to kill any opponent and quit, you did a great job, and your team sucked. On the contrary, if you won 10 times in a row and died within seconds each time, your team was great and you were the deadweight of the group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

Prot = 13
heal = 13
Div = 9

Splitting your monk attributes is generally is bad idea, at least until you know what you're doing. Based on the skill list below, I can safely say you don't. Play a pure healer or a pure protector. In 4v4, a basic boon protector is often more reliable since you can handle conditions and hexes more easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

Mending-(should give +4 at 13 healing)
Blessed Signet-@ Divine fav 7 it gives 13 energy ... 3 per enchantment so 3x 4 = 12 ... i put any spare points in here too)
Guardian- use when chased, and also when u need time to recast blessed. Also use if someone is taking a pounding
Aieges (sp?) - Spam this as often as you can manage
Remove hex
Mend Ailment - fast recharges fast, also tried Mrtyr + purge.. but the recharge on purge makes that combo close to useless.
healing Touch - self heal
Res Signet

No offense intended, but... yuck! Mending is a worthless waste of energy: ditch it. Aegis is good in 8v8, but the protection/energy ratio is crappy in 4v4: ditch it. The recharge time of Remove hex is bad, Holy Veil is your best tool so use it. Learn to precast against hex spammers, and to cast/remove very fast. Healing Touch with only 9divine and touch range is a bad idea. Res Signet is really optional on a monk. If one of your allies died, it means you failed to keep him alive, so you *really* shouldn't waste time rezzing. Try to save your other team mates alive instead, and let *them* rez. Now where's your elite? Where is your energy management?

Then let's clear up a common misconception. The build iself doesn't guarantee a good victory rate. You must be able to use correctly. Being a good monk takes a lot of time and practice. As far as I understand your problem, you're struggling with crappy skills while not understanding while your build sucks. Instead of trying to improve your build, you should wonder *why* you failed to stay alive. It's really the first step toward improving upon yourself.

Learn to manage your energy. Learn when to heal, and when to kite damage (run away, dodge projectiles, hide behind obstacles...). Learn that kiting doesn't mean running while crippled and hit with scary axe criticals every second. Learn to handle degen teams, spikes, and knock down. Learn to hide your energy against e-denial... All these mandatory monk skills cannot be acquired in a forum.

The best advice you can follow is to use a popular and resilient build like the boon protector. It's one of the best templates you can use in RA. Experienced boon-protectors can stay alive forever against the average RA team (which means 80% flawlesss ratio). Even in the TA, you should be able to get decent winning streaks. Take this build, and then learn to use each and every skill properly. Trust me, it's not as easy as it may seem. Although I know why I am not half as good as the best PvP players, and although I can identify and undertsand my mistakes, I'm still making errors in a serious PvP game.

Last advice, don't listen to the average RA player who is hardly better than you at monking or build crafting. Identify the best PvP players out there, read their posts, and learn from them. Few experienced players will post in a thread like this one.

4runner · Feb 18, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

and that is why i live, breath these forums!!! So much knowledge! Its awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Accurax · Feb 20, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

I've graduated to TA now

finally found a build that works well.

Critique please .. (but be nice... No flamers)

/puts on flame retardent vest

Mo/Me

Cant remember my stats at the moment... ill check when i get home and ill post / edit them in.

Mantra Of Recall *elite - try to keep this going
Distortion - Pre kite skill, also buys you enough time to cast that game saving spell.
Reversal Of Fortune - Nice skill spam this like a spam sandwich
Holy Veil - Hex removal
Mend Ailment - Condition removal
Divine Boon
???????????
Rez Signet

Ok, In the 7th skill slot Ive tried the following:

Divine spirit - It was fun to spam ROF at a cost of 1 NRG for 10 seconds... but takes 60 secs to recharge ... is it worth it?

Guardian - Possibly my favorite skill outside of ROF.. problem is i found that spamming both was A) an nrg drain and 2) difficult.. however it may work with practice ??

Illusion of Haste - Hmmm... i found that i was distracted from what i really should be doine (protecting) by the cripple i was giving myself....... again maybe this would work if practiced with Mend Ailment or CoP ?

Contemplation of Purity - Worked well, clearly requires some practice, allthough thats not a reason to dis regard it ..... i found i automatically jumped to mend ailment for myself rather than Cop ... possibly just habbit ..... Opinions on this skill choice for me?

Ok thats where i am.... again all advice is gratefully recieved.

Siliconwafer · Feb 20, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

It's a solid MoR boon prot. I recommend Guardian for the ? slot (thus less reliance of distortion). It's your choice whether to bring Res Signet or not; usually in TA you're not required to bring one.