Curse

Divine Elemental · Jan 06, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Have you ever played against them?

Why do you think their rank is 36?

why do you think they always win halls?

respect where its due, I dont like IWAY any more than the next guy, but they are an outstanding team. Its not about the skills on the bar, its about how they are used.

Always Which is 3 Times

No One is Prepared For IWAY In GvG

EP Isnt Either.
Barely Anyone Expects IWAY In GvG.
MATH... Gah Congrats To Yall On Gettting To Regionals ^^ Thats All This One Will Say

sau970982 · Jan 06, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddie

Ok, I maddie from the math guild, maddie tee rapper
I think the reason because we play better IWAY than the most is because of the fact that we know the skills put on us and what they do..
Of course our iway is the same, but its all about experience and getting to know each other. You need to know how an other guy in the guild acts and work together with them. A lot of tombing together contributes to this a lot..

As you know we can be beated.. Just look for an anti-iway build here..
But then again, youre build will be anti-iway, but what if you dont meet us in GvG you will be slaughtered by a other guild because your build is focussed on anti-iway.

GL.
Maddie

You ppl did a great job... congratulations~!

IGN - Goddess Beauty
Leader of Mission Impossible [MI]

Sayshina · Jan 06, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

You see I dont understand the mentality of posts like this.

Do you have any concept of what is involved in getting anywhere near the top 50 of the rankings? if you think that you can get there with a 'shitty' build then you are sadly mistaken.

While it is true that GvG is more about tactics than it is build, you still need to have a solid build,.. .

Hmm, I must dissagree with you there. The last time I played the game IWAY didn't exist, and Spirits were the "it" build everyone was crying about.

A couple of weeks before that my crap guild, with no real build whatsoever other than "Let's just go for balance and see what happens" managed to get to rank 74 or somewhere around there.

Back then the power guilds still dominated the top 25, and from what I hear the skill level today isn't even half what it was. It's really not that hard to rank up, it's another story to get into the top 10 and stay there week after week.

Whoever Math is, I expect they'll be forgotten soon enough. Anyone remember "Carebears gone Wild"? I didn't think so.

Patrograd · Jan 06, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayshina

Hmm, I must dissagree with you there. .

There are 1500 guilds who have won more than they have lost in GvG, meaning I guess that there are 3000 or more reasonably active GvG teams. Now even if you discount smurfs and disbanded guilds etc there are still alot of Guilds, I would hazard a guess at well over 500, who are pretty good. yes they'll get rolled on by a team rank <50, but they'll give pretty much anyone else a good game.

Personally I have found that the standard has increased dramatically over the course of the last ladder season. Even in mid season we could expect to roll over a rank 400 team pretty easily (and we're not by a long way the best team in the world), that just isnt true any more, most of these teams will put up a pretty good fight now, even down to rank 700 or so (or at least did so prior to the ladder lock, since when everyone has been mucking around).

My experience is that the guilds in the top 100 are all very good teams - OK, there is another group that are way above that (the top 15 or so), but getting into the top 100 is still a huge achievement, and the top 50 even more so, and requires a pretty high standard of play.

I think alot of people are blinded by IWAY. Its a perfectly viable build if run well, same as ranger spike, same as ele spike, same as pressure. just because it is played (usually very poorly) by new players doesnt make it a bad build. I've seen poor ranger spikes, poor ele spikes and pressure builds that didnt do any pressure. Doesnt make them bad builds, it makes them bad players.

All MATH have have done is take a tried and tested tombs build and adapted it very successfully for GvG. Maybe they were lucky in that the metagame suddenly changed to suit their build, or maybe they changed their build to suit the metagame, either way, to have risen as fast as they have with a build that doesnt on the face of it suit GvG at all tells me that they are doing something very much right, and to be rank 39 is a great achievement, something that literally hundreds of guilds would give their right arm for, ourselves included. To disrespect them just because they are running IWAY is like disrepsecting Rus Corp for running Air spike, something i suspect born out of frustration at not being able to beat them. One thing this game is full of is bad losers, thats for sure.

JR · Jan 06, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

We do seem to have developed a habit of screwing arround too much during the offseason. Try us again when we're actually playing to win and I think you'll find it's a bit different.

I wasn't meaning to imply there are no good players in XoO main division, if thats how you took it. I know there are, being an ex member myself

What I meant is that in one match you might be facing the decent players, then in the next you might hit 6 people straight out of Ascalon.

Kariston The Swift · Jan 07, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Math's gvg build seems to be a standard "Modded Iway" with the exception that they have 2 N/Mos and no tainted necro. The one N/Mo has Order of the Vampire and Blood ritual while the other has Martyr and Order of Pain. They blood ritual each other then spam heal party. An interest mod to the normal Iway in tombs.

Zeru · Jan 07, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kariston The Swift

Math's gvg build seems to be a standard "Modded Iway" with the exception that they have 2 N/Mos and no tainted necro. The one N/Mo has Order of the Vampire and Blood ritual while the other has Martyr and Order of Pain. They blood ritual each other then spam heal party. An interest mod to the normal Iway in tombs.

Which is why they are 'successful' (84-34 isn't that good though). Running 6 warriors 2 necros in gvg is just going to get owned because you will get crushed going into their base and you can't control the flag. Their IWAY gvg really isn't IWAY anymore. It has some healing/condition removal, more control, and a lot less dps. Much different than the uncommon but effective front loaded heavy dps/disruption version that's best in tombs and different from the very common garbage version with two spike/oath shot trappers and a death necro. Their warrior setup isn't very impressive though and seems ordinary when i looked at it.

wheel · Jan 08, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Elemental

Always Which is 3 Times

No One is Prepared For IWAY In GvG

EP Isnt Either.
Barely Anyone Expects IWAY In GvG.
MATH... Gah Congrats To Yall On Gettting To Regionals ^^ Thats All This One Will Say

EP is pretty prepared for iway in gvg running a very strong spike with life barrier. iway has no enchantment removal. they'll simply be spiking anyone that gets close to the bonder while the bonder kites all day long. math would get owned by EP

a cadet · Jan 09, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I think the [MATH] build has alot of room for improvement, in GvG at least.

Not speaking from experience, i would expect that in a GvG most of the pets actually wouldnt die, since there probably isnt much AoE damage in a GvG. Also given that no one really targets pets, i would expect that the IWAY skill is primarily fueled by other party members dying, rather than pets dying. In that sense, one could possibly change the warrior setup in an IWAY. (One pet may still be usefull, in the event that a team is running traps)

Instead of running 4 W/R, possibly one could run several /E warriors for the skill Gale. One could also change the layout from 4 axe warriors to include hammer, or sword warriors.

Also, you could have the two N/Mo use Ressurect. That way, if they stay sufficiently far back and are protected by the two Crippling Shot rangers, they could greatly decrease the IWAY's dependance on a morale boost.

I havent really looked in-depth at [MATH]'s build, so possibly im reinventing the wheel. However, i think you can safely say that the build is barely a 'true' IWAY any more.

glenn_rolfe · Jan 09, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I;ve played against MATH and let me tell you, they are special. They play IWAY head and shoulders better than any other IWAY we've ever faced.

If you think you can steamroll them, why don't you give it a shot?

yeah, but it's still IWAY.

In GvG, split squad or spike.

In tombs, frozen soil.

Rest is up to the players abilities.

NOTE:
I don't care who is running IWAY, if you lose to it, it's your fault.

Patrograd · Jan 10, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

NOTE:
I don't care who is running IWAY, if you lose to it, it's your fault.

Saw MATH steamroller a rank 9+ PUG in HoH on observer mode this afternoon...some famous players on the losing team.....guess they dont know how to counter IWAY....come on guys, just give them a little respect, they are clearly a very good team, this anti-IWAY nonsense is really going a bit far.

Just to make it clear, I dont play IWAY myself, I just have respect for what MATH have achieved with a build that shouldnt be able to do the things they make it do.

JR · Jan 10, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Just to make it clear, I dont play IWAY myself, I just have respect for what MATH have achieved with a build that shouldnt be able to do the things they make it do.

Same.

When I first heard of MATH, an IWAY guild, I laughed. I said "what the hell do they think they are doing". But then, it was a tombs guild, so I didn't really care. When MATH stepped up to GvG and worked they way up into the top 50, it was a bit of a reality check.

Hexgame · Jan 10, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

As an officer of Math, Let me first defend our guild by replying to these very few comments.

1) Split teams - Math has thought of this before we started to gvg. We made it possible that our group can split just as easily, Maintain a large amount of damage and still keep ourselves alive.

2) ganking - 4 W/R attacking the same target outbeats most offensive groups.

3) Basic Iway - You must be nuts to think we will run the standard Iway in gvg.

4) Rank farming - We worked hard to get to rank 34, Just like many other guilds. And to win with a "Shitty" Build as most of you say, wouldnt that proove that we are more skilled then average.

5) Iway is all you can play - Don't make me laugh. We can play other professions just as well. We just played Iway so much that we understand its weakness, Understand what to do against pretty much all builds.

6) Math Trash talking - If you hear a Math member trash talking, Just send me a message ingame (Green Dye) I will gladly talk to that member and deal with it with an appropriate manner.

Ghastly Hero · Jan 26, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Let me start by saying that I am not a member of math, or any other "Iway" guild.

Iway is a buld. It is a build used by MANY people. But, just like any build, it has its advantages and disadvantages. How is Iway any different that ranger spike? Both require no originality. Both are only as good as the individual characters in the build. So stop this Iway hate.

As for math, they play iway very well. However, they are still playing Iway (in gvg i believe they run it slightly modded, with two orders and crippling shot rangers instead of trappers, but it has the same basic strategy.)

This is not to say that Iway is Noobish, and that you stink if you lose to it. However, you do stink if you go to ANY gvg or hoh battle without some anti-warrior plan.

Trust me, bring at least a couple skills that couse blind, or some anti warrior hexes. These will not only help against iway, but also against any team running a warrior or two (every single korean team).

But i digress, i am off the topic of tactics.

1. keep a solid battle line. Your team should like like a layer cake (sorry for the bad analogy, but im very hungry.) with people with good armour (rangers and warriors), then casters, then monks. NEVER LEAVE THIS BATTLE LINE. If your warriors need healing, they must fall back to the monks, and not vice-versa.
2. Attack overextended targets. If you monks are being hit bny warriors, have them fall back. Iway Needs their warriors as they "carriers" of the necromancers damage. If their team is spread out, then you can take out their warriors at your own leasure. Additionaly, if you are running a spike team, hit their warriors first.
3. Control the flag stand. Even if they manage to kill 3 of your people and you can only kill one warrior in a period of time of two minutes, your morale will be higher with the morale boost.
4. Spirits are deadly, if they are not dead within 10-15 seconds of when they go up, you are screwed.
5. For god's sake, come prepared. Even if you didnt bring any anti-warrior characters, have your monks bring some extra stuff. I normally run a spike build, with a bonder, a boon-prot, and a straight heal. That means that we have 2x guardian, healing seed, shield of deflection, and much more.

M C H A M M E R · Jan 31, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

best anti iway....ViM trappers...4 trappers 2 hp monks 2 w\e wards....pwns it

fiery · Jan 31, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

many builds going into GVG can kill IWAY GVG no problem..

E-denial
trappers
W/E
Cripple/Apply posion ranger
Air spike any type of ele spike

can we at least stay on subject stop bashing and flaming up MATH'S Guild.. i mean want people to make a thread saying Tactics vs so and so in GVG and flame up your guild and your build?

the subject is tactics vs IWAY in GVG not WHO does the IWAY in GVG.

Luddendorf · Feb 01, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Edenial doesn't work against IWAY sorry. Spike is naturally inferior against IWAY too unless the defense is extremely strong.

But in GvG as long as you don't give IWAY a morale boost you have to really try to lose.

Math's build isn't really IWAY btw. It's quite similar to WM's infamous build that EP ended up copying. I don't know why they get flamed; IWAY requires a lot more individual player skill than something like ranger spike like it or not (though it's easy to do well with terrible players too). Still, I've seen better teams with IWAY, particularly iQ's innovative setup many months ago which murdered you even if brought triple aegis, wards, and a mix of hexes and was radically different from any other IWAY I've seen.

Btw making top 100 last ladder season was really easy. Good teams could do it in a day or so of play.

The ladder right now doesn't show skill very well. Maybe half of the teams in the top 20 actually belong there. There are average teams like YAY up there and teams like Te, iQ, Val, and SNA are too low ranked by a lot. It'd be scary to see teams like WM or EviL with IWAY though.

Plus, the ladder doesn't really reflect that much since you can run very few builds and do well because nobody is going to plan against 1 teams build when they won't fight them that often at all. Which is why all the teams that are going to Taipei are the ones who have shown many builds and a lot of flexibility and not the 1 build wonders. EP was the perfect example of this.

romO · Feb 01, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

EP wasnt a one build wonder. Isnt Like Own created MANY MANY great builds for them. they were generally one step ahead of everyone else. the only mistake is that they failed to adjust when it counted. they knew EXACTLY what pRp was going to run and they knew that pRp didnt know how to run anything else, and yet, they failed to do anything about it, which is just poor planning. once teams like iQ and Te saw their dedication to that one bad build they were running, it was almost laughable.

Luddendorf · Feb 01, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

EP ran a mixed caster spike in the beginning which did ok but wasn't anything special after they did a lot of testing.
Then they ran 2 degen builds which both fared well but then lost to spike builds a couple times and changed to spike.
Then they ran a caster spike with barriers which went 20-0 or something then lost to 2 teams 3 times pretty badly. I forget which though.
Then they made their ranger spike with barriers which was by miles their most successful build and despite all the trash talk about it it is a good build partially because it's incredibly easy to succeed well with even if your players are mediocre. Fact is prp played basically their build better than ep did which doesn't reflect very well on them, neh?

Their ranger spike was their only exceptional build and is why they were able to stay atop the ladder. They couldn't play any other build with any reasonable efficiency and that's what I meant with a one build wonder comment and that's partially why they got utterly smoked by iQ and taken to the limit by pRp.

Four Pool Rush · Feb 02, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

EP wasnt a one build wonder. Isnt Like Own created MANY MANY great builds for them. they were generally one step ahead of everyone else.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here