Curse

romO · Mar 06, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Eh, all I will say about WoH is that the metagame still consists largely of warrior spike. Not entirely warrior pressure because they are not constantly unloading their skills. WoH works wonders against full-blown pressure teams, but against anything like warrior spike, you will rarely get the full benefit.

Ensign · Mar 06, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

OoB is painful. Whoever said that you can't use it under pressure was right, it's a risky skill now. For single-skill emanagement though it's still the best 'raw' available. While sometimes, yeah, you'll have to RoF yourself or something to clean up the health sacrifice, sometimes that damage will be cleaned up by Heal Parties as well. Basically the numbers understate the energy gain because they assume the self-heal, but they also understate the danger of a monk firing off the skill.

EDrain is a nice alternative now, though. On it's own it's insufficient, but you can couple it with a non-elite emanagement like Inspired Hex or Drain Enchantment. If you can get either of those to work consistently the energy should be ok. But if your second emanagement skill can't find targets you're going to be in trouble.

If the metagame will support either a consistent IHex or DEnchant on a backline character I think the EDrain guy is preferable, because he's less risky. If you're in a 'clean' metagame, though, I think you might have to stick with Offering and find a way to work around the health hits.

Peace,
-CxE

iggk · Mar 07, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

I was in Random Arenas one day and saw a Mo/R Boon Proting but for energy manegement he used Draw Conditions and Melandu's Resiliance. I wonder how effectiveit can be considering it is condition dependant, but melandru's resiliance did get a boost from the recent update.

might have been me.
it worked extreamly well to be honest but it is verry conditional and the entire time i was testing it the conditions were right.

i think most people would agree that this season of gvg will have more hex's than prievios seasons but will it be enough hexes on you that dont hurt to be effective.

time will tell

Patrograd · Mar 07, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

I think its a really tough call between E-Drain and OOB for GvG purposes IMHO.

I dont think there is much argument that OOB netts more energy than anything else available, and as we are talking energy management thats a strong case for its use. It is also a one click/one button press skill that is fast cast, another advantage. But now it has been balanced so that you cant use it under heavy degen, at low health or with a warrior in your face. This is certainly a drawback, possibly a fatal flaw. In other circumstances I think most of the sac will be healed over in the natural course of things, as Ensign says heal party will take care of most of the damage and will be being cast in any event so isnt an energy loss to the team

E-Drain, well you can use it whenever it recharges, under pressure or under degen and thats a strong case, a strong enough case for many to have jumped this way already. It also has a nice effect of removing energy from the enemy. To nett the same kind of energy as OOB though you need a supplemental inspiration skill, either ihex or denchant, and on a monk's bar where every single skill is needed that seems a heavy blow, almost requiring either a three monk defence or for some monk duties (hex removal or condition removal eg) being subbed out to other players on the team. This may not be a huge problem in many builds, but may pose problems to some. E-drain and its supplemental inspiration skills are also less easy to use than OOB as they require the identifying of a target, and if your team is taking a pounding that might be time you just dont have.

All in all a tough call between the two, which is good :-)

tafy69 · Mar 07, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Most teams will go monk elite with inspiration skills or take MoR/E-Drain.

Teams can either take 2 monk backline with condition and hex removal on their offence, or a 3 monk backline.

Hexes are looking strong this season but if facing 3 monk backlines then it wont be strong at all unless it has a strong spike too. Its going to be interesting to see what happens.

Minus Sign · Mar 07, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Props. I'm an MoR fan personally, though I'm still fiddleing with OoB. I may try EDrain after reading this.

A real world factor i'd like to bring to the table on MoR is that I drop CoP with some regularlity. It seems I've always got a particularly nasty hex or condition on me that I need to remove. I mean, if it wasn't a "cornerstone" of the Prot Boon build, it wouldn't be used often. So, I see regualr returns on MoR, every 20 seconds. The trick is making sure to reapply it, which is sometimes not possible due to its higher cast requirements. In really tight pinch, it can sometimes boil down to E-management or keep that mesmer and myself alive. I tend to stick witht he mesmer in such cases.

i'm just saying that the 5 mana cast for Boon is really one in a normal spam chain for me. If i'm not reapplying it, i'm also not getting hexed.

JR · Mar 07, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Props. I'm an MoR fan personally, though I'm still fiddleing with OoB. I may try EDrain after reading this.

A real world factor i'd like to bring to the table on MoR is that I drop CoP with some regularlity. It seems I've always got a particularly nasty hex or condition on me that I need to remove. I mean, if it wasn't a "cornerstone" of the Prot Boon build, it wouldn't be used often. So, I see regualr returns on MoR, every 20 seconds. The trick is making sure to reapply it, which is sometimes not possible due to its higher cast requirements. In really tight pinch, it can sometimes boil down to E-management or keep that mesmer and myself alive. I tend to stick witht he mesmer in such cases.

i'm just saying that the 5 mana cast for Boon is really one in a normal spam chain for me. If i'm not reapplying it, i'm also not getting hexed.

But with holy veil, divine boon and CoP, thats three hexes right there. Throw on guardian for a fourth. How often do you get stacked so heavily? A boon prot has easily enough enchants to deal with hexes, without having to resort to using a bad energy management elite.

dgb · Mar 07, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

One thing is that e-drain works on pets and minions. I haven't had a chance to try it on a spirit yet, but if theres a pet or a minion around it's guranteed energy - not variable like it is with players.

JR · Mar 07, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

One thing is that e-drain works on pets and minions. I haven't had a chance to try it on a spirit yet, but if theres a pet or a minion around it's guranteed energy - not variable like it is with players.

It works on spirits also. I believe Ensign recently tested the size of spirit energy pools. I seem to remember him saying it was 20, I could be wrong though. However, I find it much more productive to try and drain opposing monks. Even if you only get a low return, at least it means they are dry. Unless of course you are in dire need of energy, in which case drain an Elementalist or other offensive caster. By draining Pets, Minions or Spirits you are effectively wasting the offensive bonus that Edrain offers.

Maxiemonster · Mar 07, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

I'm going crazy with MoR, even if you normally have enough energy with just MoR (which I don't), you need a non-Elite skill, since you're absolutly useless when getting ressed and just have MoR as Energy Management. Too bad my skill bar is full already, I can't miss any of my skills.

JR · Mar 07, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

I'm going crazy with MoR, even if you normally have enough energy with just MoR (which I don't), you need a non-Elite skill, since you're absolutly useless when getting ressed and just have MoR as Energy Management. Too bad my skill bar is full already, I can't miss any of my skills.

Then just run Edrain instead. I don't know the exact numbers right off the top of my head (i'm at work) but it's something like this:

MoR (10 Insp):
23 energy gain - 10 energy to cast = 13 net energy gain
20 Second recharge = 5 casts per 100 seconds
5 x 13 = 65 energy net gain per 100 seconds

ED (9 Insp):
16 energy gain - 5 energy to cast = 11 net energy gain
25 second recharge = 4 casts per 100 seconds
4 x 11 = 44 energy net gain per 100 seconds

(I realise cast time would be a factor with this, but they both have a 1 second cast time so for the sake of argument I will ignore it.)

So that is a difference of 21 energy, over 100 seconds. Then factor in the fact that you can run two 20% recharge mods and benefit with ED, where as you can't with MoR. That should bring the numbers even closer.

Top that off with the benefit of having a stable energy management skill, that *can* pull you out of very low energy situations when the pressure is on (when MoR will just dig you deeper) and I think we have a winner. If energy is still a bit tight I would much much rather drop a skill on my bar for Drain Enchantment, than take MoR.

wheel · Mar 07, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Then just run Edrain instead. I don't know the exact numbers right off the top of my head (i'm at work) but it's something like this:

MoR (10 Insp):
23 energy gain - 10 energy to cast = 13 net energy gain
20 Second recharge = 5 casts per 100 seconds
5 x 13 = 65 energy net gain per 100 seconds

ED (9 Insp):
16 energy gain - 5 energy to cast = 11 net energy gain
25 second recharge = 4 casts per 100 seconds
4 x 11 = 44 energy net gain per 100 seconds

(I realise cast time would be a factor with this, but they both have a 1 second cast time so for the sake of argument I will ignore it.)

So that is a difference of 21 energy, over 100 seconds. Then factor in the fact that you can run two 20% recharge mods and benefit with ED, where as you can't with MoR. That should bring the numbers even closer.

Top that off with the benefit of having a stable energy management skill, that *can* pull you out of very low energy situations when the pressure is on (when MoR will just dig you deeper) and I think we have a winner. If energy is still a bit tight I would much much rather drop a skill on my bar for Drain Enchantment, than take MoR.

The problem witht that argument is that you're going to take Drain Enchantment on a MoR guy anyway. The biggest argument for EDrain over MoR is the fact that it's less vulnerable to disruption and also has the added benefit of stealing some of the enemy team's energy while you're at it.

JR · Mar 07, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

The problem witht that argument is that you're going to take Drain Enchantment on a MoR guy anyway. The biggest argument for EDrain over MoR is the fact that it's less vulnerable to disruption and also has the added benefit of stealing some of the enemy team's energy while you're at it.

Well indeed, I would take Drain Enchant every time. However the person I was quoting in particular said that they didn't use it currently, due to not wanting to drop a skill for it.

romO · Mar 07, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

If MoR becomes the new standard for monk energy management, imagine the effects of inspired enchantment. Edrain + inspired enchant = gg.

JR · Mar 07, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

If MoR becomes the new standard for monk energy management, imagine the effects of inspired enchantment. Edrain + inspired enchant = gg.

Not to mention the already popular Burn/Surge/SoW having a hell of a time screwing monks over even more than before.

dgb · Mar 08, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

The other thing about energy drain (I'm not even going to touch MoR) is that it opens up inspired hex. This skill is gold because it can eat a diversion without penalty (and then if your not under really heavy pressure you can annoy the mesmer by putting it back on them).

JR · Mar 08, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

The other thing about energy drain (I'm not even going to touch MoR) is that it opens up inspired hex. This skill is gold because it can eat a diversion without penalty (and then if your not under really heavy pressure you can annoy the mesmer by putting it back on them).

Not to mention Drain Enchant (excellent non-elite energy management), and Distortion (pure gold in a warrior heavy metagame, with a sprinkling of ranger spike).

Hell Marauder · Mar 08, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not to mention Drain Enchant (excellent non-elite energy management), and Distortion (pure gold in a warrior heavy metagame, with a sprinkling of ranger spike).

Distortion is illusion-based, not inspiration.
Another thing worth noting is to consider what equipments can do to enhance these skills further. You can get a collector chalice and a green cane (req 9 inspir) that each offers 20% chance in halving recharge time of any inspiration skill, which would do wonders to a Mo/Me using E-drain. Cutting recharge time on OOB doesn't have as much impact since its biggest drawback is hp sacrifice. But with close to 40% chance of cutting recharge time of E-drain (also MoR and drain enchant) in half would make E-drain a very nice skill.

wheel · Mar 08, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Distortion is illusion-based, not inspiration.
Another thing worth noting is to consider what equipments can do to enhance these skills further. You can get a collector chalice and a green cane (req 9 inspir) that each offers 20% chance in halving recharge time of any inspiration skill, which would do wonders to a Mo/Me using E-drain. Cutting recharge time on OOB doesn't have as much impact since its biggest drawback is hp sacrifice. But with close to 40% chance of cutting recharge time of E-drain (also MoR and drain enchant) in half would make E-drain a very nice skill.

The recharge time of OoB is hugely affected by the dual recharge mods, as well. It has more of an impact than EDrain because its energy efficiency is higher when you don't factor in the energy steal (even factoring in 4-4.5e for healing the sacrifice).

The reason that Edrain lets you possibly run Distortion more than you're able to with MoR is the fact that Edrain has no breakpoints at 10 insp; its breakpoint is at 9 insp. So you're effectively saving 13 attribute points that allows you to be more efficient, which can let you save points for 8 illusion possibly.

romO · Mar 08, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Another thing worth noting is to consider what equipments can do to enhance these skills further. You can get a collector chalice and a green cane (req 9 inspir) that each offers 20% chance in halving recharge time of any inspiration skill, which would do wonders to a Mo/Me using E-drain. Cutting recharge time on OOB doesn't have as much impact since its biggest drawback is hp sacrifice. But with close to 40% chance of cutting recharge time of E-drain (also MoR and drain enchant) in half would make E-drain a very nice skill.

Well it's apparent that someone didn't read the article ^^. Every one of my final analysis factored in the recharge items and ways to optimize it. And the recharge on OoB and Edrain are equally as important.