Curse

Scary Raebbit · Mar 08, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Energy Denial Mesmers with Scourge Sacrifice ftw...

xiv · Mar 08, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

well another problem with the boon prot is hex removal now now u got what a 6 second more wait to remove more hexes. i say now its gotta be remove hex as for the energy management umm run 2 monk necros they stay close and use blood is power on each othe rmaybe? just a thought.

JR · Mar 08, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiv

well another problem with the boon prot is hex removal now now u got what a 6 second more wait to remove more hexes. i say now its gotta be remove hex as for the energy management umm run 2 monk necros they stay close and use blood is power on each othe rmaybe? just a thought.

Remove hex? Complete inability to remove any key hex before it is covered? No thanks. Not to mention how easy you are to interrupt.

Two monks BiPing each other? Saccing 33% health in the face of the huge pressure that monks play under? No thanks. Why the hell would you switch from even a 20% sac with OoB, to a 33% sac from BiP?

TheOneMephisto · Mar 09, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiv

well another problem with the boon prot is hex removal now now u got what a 6 second more wait to remove more hexes. i say now its gotta be remove hex as for the energy management umm run 2 monk necros they stay close and use blood is power on each othe rmaybe? just a thought.

Can you even imagine scrouge sacrifice under those conditions? A 66% sacrifice on basically the most pressured character in the game? No thanks, leave the BIPing (if there is any) to a less pressured character.

Enforce_ · Mar 09, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I would just like to add one thing about Energy Drain, and that is the benefit it gains from switching to an 20/20 inspiration cane and offhand when casting it. This calls for a recalculation of the gain from Energy Drain, so here goes:

Recharge:
With a 20/20 cane and offhand, you have:
64% chance of normal recharge (25 sec, both chances miss -> 0.8*0.8 = 0.64).
32% chance of half recharge (12 sec because GW rounds numbers down, exactly one chance hits -> 0.2*0.8 + 0.8*0.2 = 0.32).
4% chance of super recharge (6 sec, both chancec hit -> 0.2*0.2 = 0.04).
This means an average recharge of about 20 secs (0.64*25+0.32*12+0.04*6 = 20.08).

Casting time:
Also taking into account the reduced casting times, which get the same percentages:
64% chance for 1 sec,
32% chance of 0.5 sec,
4% chance of 0.25 sec casting times.
That amounts to a average casting time of 0.81 seconds.
This means that the gain is now (at 9 inspiration magic, in energy per second) (16 - 5 energy) / (20.08 + 0.81 seconds ) = 0.53 energy/sec which equals about 1.6 pips of energy regen.

If you furthermore take inspired hex or inspired enchantment into account, you gain an additional (10 - 5 energy) / (20 + 1 seconds) = 0.24 energy/sec, and the total gain is now 0.77 energy/sec.
That is now a total of 2.33 pips of regen.
This is of course under perfect circumstances, when you always get full benefit from both, which in practise never happens though, so this is purely theoretical.
But anyway, Energy Drain + Inspired Hex or Inspired Enchantment seems like a good alternative to OoB to me now...
Damn, that was one hell of a long first post, wasn't it?

[edited due to post below]

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enforce_

I would just like to add one thing about Energy Drain, and that is the benefit it gains from switching to an 20/20 inspiration cane and offhand when casting it. This calls for a recalculation of the gain from Energy Drain, so here goes:
Recharge:
With a 20/20 cane and offhand, you have:
64% chance of normal recharge (20 sec, both chances miss -> 0.8*0.8 = 0.64),
32% chance of half recharge (12 sec because GW rounds numbers down, exactly one chance hits -> 0.2*0.8 + 0.8*0.2 = 0.32),
and 4% chance of super recharge (6 sec, both chancec hit -> 0.2*0.2 = 0.04).
This means an average recharge of about 20 secs (0.64*25+0.32*12+0.04*6 = 20.08).
Casting time:
Also taking into account the reduced casting times, which get the same percentages: 64% chance for 1 sec, 32% chance of 0.5 sec, and 4% chance of 0.25 sec casting times equals a average casting time of 0.81 seconds.
This means that the gain is now (at 9 inspiration magic, in energy per second) (16 - 5 energy) / (20.08 + 0.81 seconds ) = 0.53 energy/sec which equals about 1.6 pips of energy regen.
If you furthermore take inspired hex or inspired enchantment into account, you gain an additional (10 - 5 energy) / (20 + 1 seconds) = 0.24 energy/sec, and the total gain is now 0.77 energy/sec, which equals a total of 2.33 pips of regen.
This is of course under perfect circumstances, when you always get full benefit from both, which in practise never happens though, so this is purely theoretical, but anyway, Energy Drain + Inspired Hex or Inspired Enchantment seems like a good alternative to OoB to me now...
Damn, that was one hell of a long first post, wasn't it?

Guild Wars *does* round the recharges down in this case, but it doesn't do that always. The normal recharge time is 25s, not 20s, like your post. I suspect it was merely a typo.

Enforce_ · Mar 09, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Oh, sorry, just a typo from me. I know the normal recharge is 25 sec, and all calculations also count it as such. The 20 sec recharge was just a typo, so disregard that, but not the rest of the post.

Another point I forgot to mention is that both Energy Drain and Inspired Hex/Enchantment serve some quite obvious secondary purposes, so none of them is a wasted slot just for energy management, imho.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enforce_

But anyway, Energy Drain + Inspired Hex or Inspired Enchantment seems like a good alternative to OoB to me now...

In a post about how recharge mods effect the energy gain from Energy Drain (very nice post by the way), it seems strange that you then quote two skills that are completely uneffected by fast recharge mods; Inspired Hex and Inspired Enchantment. Superior to those two in terms of energy gain and interaction with recharge mods is Drain Enchantment.

(There is an argument for using Inspired Enchantment to steal other peoples Mantra of Recall to make use of it. However I don't think it will be too long before Energy Drain is standard, and Mantra of Recall is much rarer. And rightfull so, it's fairly bad.)

Enforce_ · Mar 09, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In a post about how recharge mods effect the energy gain from Energy Drain (very nice post by the way), it seems strange that you then quote two skills that are completely uneffected by fast recharge mods; Inspired Hex and Inspired Enchantment. Superior to those two in terms of energy gain and interaction with recharge mods is Drain Enchantment.

(There is an argument for using Inspired Enchantment to steal other peoples Mantra of Recall to make use of it. However I don't think it will be too long before Energy Drain is standard, and Mantra of Recall is much rarer. And rightfull so, it's fairly bad.)

Oh, a very good point JR-, I completely forgot about that skill.
Taking Drain Enchantment into account instead of Inspired Enchantment, you would gain even more energy.
The recharge and casting time benefits with a 20/20 inspiration wand/focus for Drain Enchantment comes out exactly as for Energy Drain.
The gain from Drain Enchantment is therefore (at 9 inspiration):
(17 - 10)/(20.08 + 0.81) = 0.34 energy/sec.
Combining Energy Drain and Drain Enchantment now gives a total of 0.53 + 0.34 = 0.87 energy/sec, which in turn equals 2.64 pips of regen.
If you would get maximum benefit from both, that would actually be higher than OoB was before the nerf...

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enforce_

Oh, a very good point JR-, I completely forgot about that skill.
Taking Drain Enchantment into account instead of Inspired Enchantment, you would gain even more energy.
The recharge and casting time benefits with a 20/20 inspiration wand/focus for Drain Enchantment comes out exactly as for Energy Drain.
The gain from Drain Enchantment is therefore (at 9 inspiration):
(17 - 10)/(20.08 + 0.81) = 0.34 energy/sec.
Combining Energy Drain and Drain Enchantment now gives a total of 0.53 + 0.34 = 0.87 energy/sec, which in turn equals 2.64 pips of regen.
If you would get maximum benefit from both, that would actually be higher than OoB was before the nerf...

Almost. OoB nets 2.673031026 pips of regen given Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (not counting the HP sacrifice)

Enforce_ · Mar 09, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Almost. OoB nets 2.673031026 pips of regen given Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (not counting the HP sacrifice)

Also worth mentioning again is that whereas that number was what you actually gained from OoB, my numbers are only what you would gain from Energy Drain + Drain Enchantment IF you would always get the max benifit, which you won't in practise. So you wont't actually get 2.64 pips of regen from using Energy Drain + Drain Enchantment, but my point is just that it is a good alternative nowadays that also has some useful secondary uses. The numbers are just to back my opinion up...

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enforce_

Also worth mentioning again is that whereas that number was what you actually gained from OoB, my numbers are only what you would gain from Energy Drain + Drain Enchantment IF you would always get the max benifit, which you won't in practise. So you wont't actually get 2.64 pips of regen from using Energy Drain + Drain Enchantment, but my point is just that it is a good alternative nowadays that also has some useful secondary uses. The numbers are just to back my opinion up...

Yep. Glad to see someone who doesn't have incorrect numbers to quote from.

dgb · Mar 09, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In a post about how recharge mods effect the energy gain from Energy Drain (very nice post by the way), it seems strange that you then quote two skills that are completely uneffected by fast recharge mods; Inspired Hex and Inspired Enchantment. Superior to those two in terms of energy gain and interaction with recharge mods is Drain Enchantment.

(There is an argument for using Inspired Enchantment to steal other peoples Mantra of Recall to make use of it. However I don't think it will be too long before Energy Drain is standard, and Mantra of Recall is much rarer. And rightfull so, it's fairly bad.)

It's something of an intangible argument, but I find the inspired line to be better than drain enchantment simply because they can reliably eat two diversions without a problem. Because of the weirdness of their recharge setups diversion doesn't affect them. Then if a second diversion lands just cast the inspired skill (oh, they diverted a parasitic bond - who cares). In a couple of seconds it will swap back anyway.

The only other way to deal as effectively with diversion is to dedicate your holy veil to it and that's not so good a use of it in my view.

Lady Callingwell · Mar 09, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

The e-management of the boon prot isnt what hurts most, OoB is still very good. The main problems I ran into are the increased recharge of veil and mend ailment. I started running mend condition which is ok but doesnt allow self removal. This is no problem with a martyr char in GvG but hurts in TA. The main problem with veil is that somehow the few additionall secs make all the difference between having time to remove all hexes and having a stack left on various characters.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

It's something of an intangible argument, but I find the inspired line to be better than drain enchantment simply because they can reliably eat two diversions without a problem. Because of the weirdness of their recharge setups diversion doesn't affect them. Then if a second diversion lands just cast the inspired skill (oh, they diverted a parasitic bond - who cares). In a couple of seconds it will swap back anyway.

The only other way to deal as effectively with diversion is to dedicate your holy veil to it and that's not so good a use of it in my view.

Or get someone else to remove it. Or just don't cast for a few seconds, if you can afford not to. I appreciate your argument, but I am not about to sacrafice energy efficiency for the ability to more easily beat diversion. The problem also with Inspired Hex, is that it has a much longer recharge than Holy Veil. It also doesn't interact with Contemplation of Purity to remove stacks, as Veil does.

Patrograd · Mar 09, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Callingwell

I started running mend condition which is ok but doesnt allow self removal. .

Contemplation of Purity handles self removal of both hexes and conditions and fits snugly with divine boon because the odds are you will have an enchantment up most of the time. As I think alot of boon prots are bringing CoP these days they can bring mend condition in place of mend ailment without much loss.

dgb · Mar 10, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Or get someone else to remove it. Or just don't cast for a few seconds, if you can afford not to. I appreciate your argument, but I am not about to sacrafice energy efficiency for the ability to more easily beat diversion. The problem also with Inspired Hex, is that it has a much longer recharge than Holy Veil. It also doesn't interact with Contemplation of Purity to remove stacks, as Veil does.

Getting someone else to remove it is patchy at best. Against a coordinated team, both monks are going to be under pressure. What happens when there is no other monk (split) etc.

Not casting just isn't an option - if you rule yourself out for six seconds someone dies. Plus if you do decide to cast, you're almost certain to use your RoF (because it's that important) locking it down - worst outcome.

I'm not advocating taking it in place of Holy Veil, I'm advocating taking it inplace of drain enchantment. The marginal energy gain of drain enchant isn't worth the versatility of inspired hex or enchantment.

JR · Mar 10, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Getting someone else to remove it is patchy at best. Against a coordinated team, both monks are going to be under pressure. What happens when there is no other monk (split) etc.

Not casting just isn't an option - if you rule yourself out for six seconds someone dies. Plus if you do decide to cast, you're almost certain to use your RoF (because it's that important) locking it down - worst outcome.

In the case that you have got to cast, you throw out the weakest skill on your bar. So it's locked down for a while, a pain in the ass but no huge deal. However, most of the time with two monks you can survive the few seconds of not casting.

Not that I am saying Diversion is a bad skill. It just isn't good enough that I am about to run a skill purely to counter it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I'm not advocating taking it in place of Holy Veil, I'm advocating taking it inplace of drain enchantment. The marginal energy gain of drain enchant isn't worth the versatility of inspired hex or enchantment.

The energy gain from Drain Enchantment is significantly better than Inspired Hex. See this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=133734

And those numbers are assuming that there will be a hex for you to 'inspire' every 20 seconds. Admittedly Drain Enchantment is also conditional, with Enchantments. Luckily they are far more common.

I certainly wouldn't want to run both Holy Veil and Inspired Hex, and tie down two valuable slots on my bar with hex removal. One of which would be there purely to counter a hex you may not even face.

Greedy Gus · Mar 10, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Depends on the team build I say. Taking drain enchantment over inspired hex just because it has 5-6 more EPM is not necessarily the best choice. That is not "significantly better". If your team build could use more hex removal, why wouldn't you take it?

dgb · Mar 10, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In the case that you have got to cast, you throw out the weakest skill on your bar. So it's locked down for a while, a pain in the ass but no huge deal. However, most of the time with two monks you can survive the few seconds of not casting.

Not that I am saying Diversion is a bad skill. It just isn't good enough that I am about to run a skill purely to counter it.

Your working on the idea that you have two monks. To me that's a suicidal precept to work on. Most decent builds have a way too at least reduce the efficiency of two monks and so hoping that the other monk is fine is risky at best to me. Throwing out your weakest skill isn't an option either - if you are forced to use a skill you've got three that you can realistically use - mend condition, guardian or RoF. If it's that bad that you have to use one through a diversion then the situation is probably bad enough that you want an RoF. Either way you've locked out one of your main workhorses for healing for almost a minute.

Add on that you've got another diversion landing in 10 seconds, you are talking either taking constant lockdowns, running veil on yourself constantly (which if you do a smart mesmer will just leave you and let you get energy drained by losing the pip of energy) or losing even mroe skills. The whole thing gets worse when you start getting diversions chained together using echo or arcane echo. Unless you have someone dedicated to removing hexes they are extremely difficult to beat.

I've had a mesmer sitting on me with diversions as a boon prot. Even with a second monk removing the hexes they are extremely difficult to beat, plus you have given over nearly all your hex removal capability to something that can be refreshed every ten seconds. I don't know why it's underused in competition, but with a spammer it locks a boon-prot very easily.

Yes it's not so good that you want to configure half your bar to avoid it (despite how strongly I'm arguing here :P). But an extra six energy per minute is not worth it for me as opposed to being nearly immune to what is quite a nasty hex. Six energy per minute is not "significantly" better. It's marginal. While enchants are more common than hexes, hexes aren't hugely common. And if you want to run that argument, take inspired enchantment instead - it eats the diversion just as easily as inspired hex.