Curse

OrangeArrow · Mar 03, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I'm not sure if these numbers are totally right but I did some number crunching to see how a boon prot would work with the rebalanced energy management skills.

I'm using 10 inspiration/Blood magic for these numbers and using default recharge times under ideal circumstances over a period of 2:30 (150 seconds).

Oob Will Generate 110 energy and 900-1060 Damage (16energy - 5energy = 11e) (11 energy x 10=110)
Energy Drain will Generate 66 energy and steal 48 energy over the same period of time
Mantra of Recall will generate 97.5 energy during the same period (if you account for half a recharge on MoR 91 energy if you dont)
Peace and Harmony will generate about 70 energy during the same period if its cast on TWO monks (35 each) if it doesnt get removed assuming 60 second duration (1 pip of energy will generate 50 energy in 150 PnH will need to be racast 3 times each 50-15 =35)

Also assuming a hex gets removed everytime its recharged, inspired hex can generate up to 45 additional energy (Well techincally 42 but lets round for this)
My first thought was that the damage from OoB would take about 35-50 energy to heal under ideal circumstances but then it occured to me the damage from an oob Could be offset with a signet of devotion of course this cant be really factored into this situation since nothing is stoping a monk/Mesmer from using Signet of devotion.

If the damage that needs to be healed is factored in it makes Oob Generate about 60-75 energy (old 10% oob would be about 85-96 energy)

If you factor in everything it looks like Energy Drain and offering of blood are pretty much balanced with each other. With OoB generating more total energy but Energy drain making it up with more benefits(energy steal and other inspiration spells. (of course with edrain you still have to somehow factor getting less than ideal energy from a target)

Mantra of Recall seems to be much better than OoB/eD though it might be offset by being harder to manage then Oob or EDrain though only time will tell.
will MoR be the new Supreme Energy Management?
Is MoR the only way to go or does the pure energy of Oob or the extra energy steal of eDrain make it worth it?

any comments? is my logic too flawed?

Mithie · Mar 03, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Glyph of renewal + divine spirit F.T.W!

Moltov joss · Mar 03, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeArrow

I'm not sure if these numbers are totally right but I did some number crunching to see how a boon prot would work with the rebalanced energy management skills.

I'm using 10 inspiration/Blood magic for these numbers and using default recharge times under ideal circumstances over a period of 2:30 (150 seconds).

Oob Will Generate 110 energy and 900-1060 Damage (16energy - 5energy = 11e) (11 energy x 10=110)
Energy Drain will Generate 66 energy and steal 48 energy over the same period of time
Mantra of Recall will generate 97.5 energy during the same period (if you account for half a recharge on MoR 91 energy if you dont)
Peace and Harmony will generate about 70 energy during the same period if its cast on TWO monks (35 each) if it doesnt get removed assuming 60 second duration (1 pip of energy will generate 50 energy in 150 PnH will need to be racast 3 times each 50-15 =35)

Also assuming a hex gets removed everytime its recharged, inspired hex can generate up to 45 additional energy (Well techincally 42 but lets round for this)
My first thought was that the damage from OoB would take about 35-50 energy to heal under ideal circumstances but then it occured to me the damage from an oob Could be offset with a signet of devotion of course this cant be really factored into this situation since nothing is stoping a monk/Mesmer from using Signet of devotion.

If the damage that needs to be healed is factored in it makes Oob Generate about 60-75 energy (old 10% oob would be about 85-96 energy)

If you factor in everything it looks like Energy Drain and offering of blood are pretty much balanced with each other. With OoB generating more total energy but Energy drain making it up with more benefits(energy steal and other inspiration spells. (of course with edrain you still have to somehow factor getting less than ideal energy from a target)

Mantra of Recall seems to be much better than OoB/eD though it might be offset by being harder to manage then Oob or EDrain though only time will tell.
will MoR be the new Supreme Energy Management?
Is MoR the only way to go or does the pure energy of Oob or the extra energy steal of eDrain make it worth it?

any comments? is my logic too flawed?

I believe your logic is sound. However energy drain isn't a consistant energy net giving that it relies solely on your enemies energy pool. That unpredicability would be very hard to factor in though.
All the times I have played boon prot as mo/me I had excellent results with it. Good post btw.

Kassad · Mar 03, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

OoB is basicly useless now. At 10 blood : 5 energy cost = 11 energy gained altogether, 20% sac = You gotta reversal yourself costing 7 energy (5 from reversal, -2 from boon). In the end only gaining 4 energy.. this just became as shit as P&H.

audioaxes · Mar 03, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

nah good balance OoB needed a sack since its so easy to use
not too sure of recall will ever be used in 8v8

i have always used it since the first edrain nerf in 4v4 boon prots and i think 8v8 is too chaotic to try as use recall

if you screw up or get screwed you may not be able to use it again as you will have to find 10 energy then wait 20 seconds for the benefit

atleast edrain and oob give you instant energy access at 5 energy

pii! · Mar 03, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

I used MoR and i still gonna use it. The 10 energy is prohibitive, esp. when you get ressed. This is still its biggest disadvantage compared with OoB.
The reason i like it because it works well with CoP and then i also can determine the time when i get the energy (you get it as soon as its ends and not after 20 secs)

JR · Mar 03, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I definately expect to see a lot more Word/Restore + D.Enchant + I.Hex backlines. Energy Drain is interesting, I am probably going to test that out and see whats up. I would definately think twice about running OoB on a monk now though. I think MoR + D.Enchant is a viable combo, although I do dislike MoR and the way it works. It seems that might well be the next step though.

Ruined · Mar 03, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Mantra of Recall takes more skill to use, thus the reason its underplayed, but combined with CoP it comes out better. It also provides a nice stack over boon.

JR · Mar 03, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruined

Mantra of Recall takes more skill to use, thus the reason its underplayed, but combined with CoP it comes out better. It also provides a nice stack over boon.

CoP doesn't actually work that well with MoR. With Boon and Holy Veil minumum on a boon prot, you should already have enough enchants to easily remove any hex stacks on you, one more isn't that neccasary. By using MoR + CoP to take off hexes, you could well get your energy when you don't actually need it.

Ideally with MoR, you wont CoP at all. This way you just pay the 10 energy of casting it, instead of the 20 energy to cast it, CoP it, and put Boon back up.

Billiard · Mar 03, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I had been practicing with a MoR booner and once you get the hang of it the energy management is really not all the bad. Just takes some practice and timing. I have not tried an OoB booner since the update to compare though.

Neo-LD · Mar 03, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Alot of people will be turning to inspiration energy management now, since oob hurts so much now. I think, tho, that we may see a rise in oob monks with devotion signets. Devotion heals back all the hp lost from oob for free, and can be used at other times to help conserve energy as well.

JR · Mar 03, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Alot of people will be turning to inspiration energy management now, since oob hurts so much now. I think, tho, that we may see a rise in oob monks with devotion signets. Devotion heals back all the hp lost from oob for free, and can be used at other times to help conserve energy as well.

SoD is no counter to a 20% sac. You NEED to use a reversal if you have any kind of pressure on you, with how long SoD takes to cast it's just not practical.

Mithie · Mar 03, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

OoB is still usable in an 8v8 environment where you won't be pressured 100% of the time. It's unusable in Team Arena, though.

Divineshadows · Mar 03, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

OoB is still usable in an 8v8 environment where you won't be pressured 100% of the time. It's unusable in Team Arena, though.

Really? When is a monk not under pressure? If you're not healing, then the opposing team is not doing damage. And if the opposing team is not doing damage, then it is likely they are a 321 spike team (in which case OoB is like sticking a post-it note on your head -- spike me please). And why would you want to use an elite skill for energy management only when not under pressure? It is in those times of pressure that energy is needed most. Maybe if your build of 8 has 2 heal party spammers with Ether Prodigy, then the sacrafice gets covered up and the lost health comes out in the wash. Still, 20% health sacrafice really opens up a Mo/N to any type of spike be it adrenal or other. I know that I would try to get my team to exploit any monk using OoB by timing a spike at the same time this skill gets used.

I see the change to this skill as really unfortunate to the N/* in PvP, because all of the best Necromancers I have seen in PvP used this skill to keep their energy fueled during the longer matches so that they could continue casting and not end up becoming dead weight.

wheel · Mar 03, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

OoB is basicly useless now. At 10 blood : 5 energy cost = 11 energy gained altogether, 20% sac = You gotta reversal yourself costing 7 energy (5 from reversal, -2 from boon). In the end only gaining 4 energy.. this just became as shit as P&H.

No. The energy cost per 10% health heal is going to roughly be 2 energy. Thus, each cast of OoB is netting you effectively 7 energy, where before the update, you were netting 9.

twicky_kid · Mar 03, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Oob and E drain are about the same now. But e drain is still not a good choice. The recharge is still too long to be used as energy managment.

MoR is the new thing until chapter 2. I've seen many top guilds use MoR booners with distortion. Since both were changed I don't know how this will play out.

Most likely back to the 3 monk backline. Which is going make split teams near impossible.

Neo-LD · Mar 03, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

SoD is no counter to a 20% sac. You NEED to use a reversal if you have any kind of pressure on you, with how long SoD takes to cast it's just not practical.

you can go oob -> rof and then make a judgement as to whether its safe to sod. If you can, its the same effect.

twicky_kid · Mar 03, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

you can go oob -> rof and then make a judgement as to whether its safe to sod. If you can, its the same effect.

With a 2 second cast. Easily interruptable and target could be dead in 2 seconds.

SoD is not a great choice. Monks should never have something over 1 sec casting on their bars.

Why has no one mentioned ViM yet?

Mend ailment and martyr took a hit. Condition removal is slower now. The martyr change isn't that groundbreaking but does make it interruptable. The mend ailment change is going to alter the entire game IMO.

Condition spam is looking like a good option right now so why not go with ViM.

Ensign · Mar 03, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

If you still want any chance of splitting I think you need Offering. Mantra of Recall is just going to get you destroyed with all the domination guys around, and they've just been made more important because of the Shadow of Fear buff. It's painful now, but how much choice do you have in the matter? There just aren't a lot of alternatives in the game ATM.

Remember that tactics had shifted towards punishing monks as quickly as possible at the end of the GvG season, because they were so hard and warriors so unstoppable (hex helm). These changes might force a shift in philosophy more than a shift in the monk builds, that the other 5 guys needs to focus more on mitigating offenses than going nuts on the monk stomping.

If you want to go back to a 3 monk backline I think it needs to be EDrain guys, or at least offense/defense hybrids. You can't get away with 3 pure monks in GvG, not when you have to run flags as well. Maybe Drain Enchantment and a bit more support would be enough, I don't know. In any case you'd need your other 4 main guys to be built very aggressively to take advantage of the strong defense you get from 3 true monks, otherwise you're just stalling instead of winning.

Peace,
-CxE

Patrograd · Mar 04, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

We tried to run a MoR boon tonight in GvG as a test to compare it with our OOB guy, and as Ensign says he got totally eaten by the first decent domination mesmer we came across.

On this (admittedly limited) evidence i would say that OOB remains clearly the superior skill if you are sticking to a 2 monks backline, it just requires careful usage.