Curse

coldplay · Mar 17, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

build as follow:

mo/w

DF 15 with sup rune
healing 9 with minor rune
pro 9 with minor rune
tac 9

weapons:
1.pvp staff ( either healing or protection, your choice) with energy head+ wrapping of your choice
2.-5energy weapon with mods of your choice and tac 9 PVP shield

or

DF 16 with sup rune
healing 9 with minor rune
pro 9 with minor rune
tac 7

1. Wenslauss' Faith
2. 2.-5energy weapon with mods of your choice and tac7 shield

better use this setting with a PVE character

Armor: dont really matters

skills:

word of healing
reversal of fortune
mend ailment(mend condition)
guardian(Protective spirit)
signet of devotion(Orison)
balance stance
CoP
holy veil

guardian isn't good enough (38% rate) when protection is at 9, I will think of something to replace it, maybe protective spirit ,maybe something from healing line, even one of 4-adrenaline-skills from tac line, why waste adrenaline, monks get a lot of adrenaline anyway

On the second thought, guardian is 42% rate at protection 11 which its a common 11/15/10 setting. 38% vs 42%, no big difference. its still usable in above build

Basic idea behind this build is since you dont want max energy capacity anyway. Why dont you use a shield instead of -2 energy offhands.
With this build, monks will get far more benefit from shields than a CoA quest reward offhands

This build doesnt use boon so your energy wont get drained so fast. Use word of healing wisely can be a good alternative way for energy management.

healing/protection:

reversal of fortune will heal approx. around 100 hp
signet of devotion or Orison wil heal approx.100 hp also
and spike healing is from word of healing

self-survivor:

cop and holy veil for hex/condtion removal

hybrid skill setting is for not to get entirely disabled by power block

balance stance for countering KD ( you still need to kite of course), also preventing cirtical hits when kiting and KDs from bull' strike/bull' charge

A shield : you get loads of benefit from this: 16 armor, -2/-2, 45/-2, etc.

this build doesnt have assigned skills for energy management. your energy management is how you use your skills properly and how your teammates play.

I have been testing this build in RA and TA, its pretty solid there , I often get 10ish consecutive wins. Unfortunately, I am not able to test it in serious GvG cuz I dont have a guild atm. So I dont know if its runnable in GvG. Any suggestions/advices/criticism are welcome.

Maxiemonster · Mar 17, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

1. No Energy Management?! And don't tell me you don't need it, because you do.

2. Healing AND Protection Prayers? Stick to one of the two to heal with, getting the best out of one of these is way better.

3. No Energy Management?! (It's worth repeating)

4. 16 or 15 in DF and no Divine Boon. That's just stupid.

5. Wrong forum, try the Monk deticated forum next time.

Byron · Mar 17, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

1. No Energy Management?! And don't tell me you don't need it, because you do.

Yeah, I'm a fan of engineering new builds, but if you encounter a mesmer, gg. Energy denial is a bigger problem than Knockdown, becuase on an 8v8 you will have other monks to give you health. No one, in a respectable build anyway, will give you energy, so it is the monk's responsibility to manage his/her own energy.

coldplay · Mar 17, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

My energy doesnt get drained as qucik as boon healer. I dont see why I need those energy management SKILLS if I dont run out of energy.

If every build of every monk need these energy managements skills then every other monk build except mo/me(n) should be vanished in PVP.

when comes to face mesmers, I can get 20 energy instantly by switching to a staff or use signet of devotion to help healing a bit. In this case, I also have teammates to help me take away some pressure from mesmers

projectnavi · Mar 17, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldplay

My energy doesnt get drained as qucik as boon healer. I dont see why I need those energy management SKILLS if I dont run out of energy.

If every build of every monk need these energy managements skills then every other monk build except mo/me(n) should be vanished in PVP.

when comes to face mesmers, I can get 20 energy instantly by switching to a staff or use signet of devotion to help healing a bit. In this case, I also have teammates to help me take away some pressure from mesmers

if you don't run out of energy, its cause you play against serious noobs or you just do pve.

go try some real pvp, and you'll scream for energy.

we all know about focus swapping, but thats not gonna save you for long. and signet of devotion...come on, a 2 sec cast is not going to get you anywhere when under pressure.

ps : go in TA and make videos of yourself against a decent team, lets say a team with a mesmer, a KD war, some form of spiking, whatever...anything that has pressure. i'm up for a good show, my popcorn's ready.

OrangeArrow · Mar 17, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Well I took a look at this build this morning and thought it was a terrible build but i think with some refinement and guidance it could turn into an ok build.

Some comments about energy management, if you talked to anybody who monked before the boon prot rage youll know that word of healing itself in the proper hands could be considered energy management. WoH has the potential to be the most superefficent heal in the game. Anybuild with WoH and SoD could be consider to have built in energy management.

With that out of the way I personally think that attribute distribution in this build is too scattered to be effeicent and that this build is a poor healer, Poor defensive monk, and a poor prot monk.

One other comment I have to make is you have to realize you have to build builds differenetly for each different PvP arena. What might Work in one arena might not work in another. Victory in RA or TA is not a measure of sucess of a build heck I have tested some sucessful GvG builds in TA and we were lucky if we could win 2 in a row with those builds. The only experince you can gain from testing a non arena build in TA is how the build feels and handles.

Also I seem to get the impression from the OP that he thinks a boon prot is a very inefficent monk build It isnt. In the hands of a inexperinced player that overheals it is but in the hands of an good player it basically turn all the 5 energy spells into super efficent 7 energy heal others with beneficial protection bonuses.

It looks like to me all this is a modifed boon prot build with no boon and WoH to replace the energy management elite.

personally if i wanted to make this build work i would drop either healing or protection and pump up the other attribute to turn this into a more efficent build.

maybe something like
11(10+1) df
15 (11+4) healing
5 (4+1) Prot
9 tactics

WoH
Touch
Mend condition
Orison
Veil
CoP
Balanced stance
Protective Spirit

Or if you wanted to go Prot
11+4 Df
10+1 Prot
4+1 Healing
9 Tactics

Restore Condition
SoD
CoP
Holy Veil
Protective Spirit
RoF
Healing Touch
Balanced Stance

This is probabaly a poor healer also i have doubts about using CoP when you dont have any permanant enchantments on you.
Also pass tactics monks i seen usually had watch yourself somewhere in their builds

Anyways I like your idea and innovation not sure if your apporaching it the right way or gave it enough refinement. Also part of me is thinking by brining balanced stance your not really solving anything your just delaying your death till balanced stance wears off though it might buy your team more time to achieve victory in an arena setting. Balanced stance Monks probabay wouldnt work in any type of GvG setting.

projectnavi · Mar 17, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeArrow

Well I took a look at this build this morning and thought it was a terrible build but i think with some refinement and guidance it could turn into an ok build.

Some comments about energy management, if you talked to anybody who monked before the boon prot rage youll know that word of healing itself in the proper hands could be considered energy management. WoH has the potential to be the most superefficent heal in the game. Anybuild with WoH and SoD could be consider to have built in energy management.

i won't argue that energy wise, its the most powerful heal in the game, but any serious pvp players/teams will punish you for having to cast a 1 sec spell to a target under 50%. a target under 50% is gonna get spiked and your 1 sec cast is not gonna help.

and you will still be screaming for energy, cause you have conditions to take care as well, and then hexes, and then your own problems, etc.

calling WoH energy management, even in the right hands, is pushing it a bit far.

coldplay · Mar 17, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I more care about I will be ruined by power block if I go entirely with either attribute line.

IMO, balance stance is fairly long (14-15s at tac 7-9), it helps monks being able to cast/run for a good amount of time under all kinds of KD, just think about how many KD skills being using these days and how much HP and energy BS saved you from getting smashed on the ground.

Alos, I have seen balance stance monks from Clan ZPZG and some other Korean guilds in serious GvG, they are just rare when the time monks "gotta" be boon healers, of course you "gotta" have those energy gain skills.

appreciate constructive criticism and build modification from OrangeArrow

Nilator · Mar 17, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Req 7 shield with perfect mods in PvE?
GFG.

SaintGreg · Mar 17, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

If every build of every monk need these energy managements skills then every other monk build except mo/me(n) should be vanished in PVP.

For the most part they have. Very rarely do you ever see a monk in high level pvp without being a Mo/Me or Mo/N. Thats because the only energy management that isn't very niche (ie. ViM monks in a condition build) is OoB and inspiration.

OrangeArrow · Mar 18, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectnavi

i won't argue that energy wise, its the most powerful heal in the game, but any serious pvp players/teams will punish you for having to cast a 1 sec spell to a target under 50%. a target under 50% is gonna get spiked and your 1 sec cast is not gonna help.

and you will still be screaming for energy, cause you have conditions to take care as well, and then hexes, and then your own problems, etc.

calling WoH energy management, even in the right hands, is pushing it a bit far.

WoH isnt great energy management, OoB and and the inspiration line is far superior but its one of your few decents options for any form of energy management if your not running an Mo/Me or Mo/N.

I wouldnt run a non Mo/Me or Mo/N these days in PvP but the OP wanted to play around with a balanced stance Mo/W and I entertained his idea hoping to spark some innovation. Instead of screaming about how this build has terrible energy management shouldnt you be posting something construtive like what would you use for energy management on a Mo/W or why a Balanced stance monk isnt that great of an idea. I could of said "STFU nOOb b00n Prot R0x0rz this build suXorZ" heck I could probabaly post that as a response to any Monk build besides a few boon prot or infuser builds but that probabaly wouldnt do anyone any good but feed my own ego.

Yes and I would agree that if a WoH healer had to do everything by himself or if you were running multiple WoH healers it would be a terrible build. Would a WoH healer be a good spike healer? No. Would a WoH healer be a good condition/hex remover? No. Would an WoH healer be a super efficent healer that could be part of a team build? Yes
Assuming the WoH healer had some hex removal and theres hex removals on other players in the build and condition removal is covered by a martyr or restore conditions somewhere else in the build a WoH Healer could work if coupled with a boon prot or infuser. And yes there will be disadvantages to running this kind of setup if fighting a split build/whatever situation but there will also be advanatges in other areas. Even the traditional 2 Monk Boon Prot backline has its weaknesses.

Yes I will be screaming for energy against a good team as a WoH healer but I would probabaly be also screaming for energy against a good team as a boon prot too. Any good team should be pushing your monks to the edge .

No serious healer would let a player fall to below 50% health to heal, a good healer would anticipate the damage and be prepared to heal the player before 50% if they get the WoH bonus great you got a super efficent heal if they didnt o well its still a pretty efficent 5 energy heal with out the bonus.
The 3/4 casting time of WoH would suffer against a really good spike team but any monk build that isnt a infuser or boon prot is bad at countering a good spike.

projectnavi · Mar 18, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldplay

Alos, I have seen balance stance monks from Clan ZPZG and some other Korean guilds in serious GvG, they are just rare when the time monks "gotta" be boon healers, of course you "gotta" have those energy gain skills.

appreciate constructive criticism and build modification from OrangeArrow

did you notice a BR caster, per chance ?

you need energy management, or a battery. you need energy.

Byron · Mar 18, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldplay

Alos, I have seen balance stance monks from Clan ZPZG and some other Korean guilds in serious GvG, they are just rare when the time monks "gotta" be boon healers, of course you "gotta" have those energy gain skills.

Those are runners first, healers second. They take balanced stance to combat gale, shock, EQ, etc. They are not designed to be healers, if that's what you thought. Its just a runner with healing support.

And yes, you "gotta" have energy management. I think its plain stupid to think your build is smarter than the builds of all the great GvG and HoH teams. They seem to think energy management is important, so maybe you should consider it.

coldplay · Mar 18, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectnavi

did you notice a BR caster, per chance ?

you need energy management, or a battery. you need energy.

No, I didnt notice a BR caster cuz there were not any BR casters.

I need energy management but I dont need these energy gain skills if I dont run boon healer.

Quote:

Those are runners first, healers second. They take balanced stance to combat gale, shock, EQ, etc. They are not designed to be healers, if that's what you thought. Its just a runner with healing support.

No, it was a 2 monk backline, one of them was a mo/w with balance stance and WoH.

Quote:

And yes, you "gotta" have energy management. I think its plain stupid to think your build is smarter than the builds of all the great GvG and HoH teams. They seem to think energy management is important, so maybe you should consider it.

every monk gotta have energy management but not every monk gotta have energy gain skill equipped.

Also, I have never thought of this build is supieror over any other monk builds, I even stated that I dont have a chance run this build in GvG so I dont know if its doable in GvG. This is an expiremental build, only places I've tested it are RA and TA, I only stated that its good in RA and TA.

com on, I play monk character in pvp for a long time already, I used to play monk in top 200 guild before my guild disbanded. I know all these common sense about mo/n, mo/me, energy management, etc. Well, this time I want to try out something new. Bringing up some common sense instead of constructive criticism really isnt helping me.

OrangeArrow · Mar 18, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Keep Tweaking the build it has some potential to be decent but i do have a few comments on it.
This build could work in Arena but theres a few issues that you'll run into if you run it in non arena settings.

I think you overesttimate the power of a powerblock I don't see many players running it and I have rarely seen it used in GvG. most players think the recharge is too high, energy cost is a little steep and requires high levels of domination to be effective and is it that much more effective then say blackout? Power Block is a decent Arena skill but not too great in an 8v8 build. I don't think you should weaken your build too much just because one rarely used elite skill can neutralize your build somewhat.

How will this build handle a strong energy denial build?
If you run this build in GvG these days you probabaly run into these mesmers skills: Energy Surge, Energy Burn, Signet of Weariness, Shame, Diversion, Power leak, Energy drain. How will this build handle those skills? Typically WoH healers can excel in these situations since they can function decently in a low energy environment via focus swaps and and an occasional super efficent heal but I'm not sure if your heals can pack enough punch in that situation. This is probabaly the situation you need to worry about and why everyone is questioning yoru energy management.

Anyways thats my two cents.

coldplay · Mar 18, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeArrow

Keep Tweaking the build it has some potential to be decent but i do have a few comments on it.
This build could work Arena but theres a few issues that youll run into if you run it in non arena settings.

I think you overesttimate the power of a powerblock I don't see many players running it and I have rarely seen it used in GvG. most players think the recharge is too high, energy cost is a little steep and requires high levels of domination to be effective and is it that much more effective then say blackout? Its a decent Arena skill but not too great in an 8v8 build. I don't think you should weaken your build too much just because one rarely used elite skill can neutralize your build somewhat.

How will this build handle a strong energy denial build?
If you run this build in GvG these days you probably run into these mesmers skills: Energy Surge, Energy Burn, Signet of Weariness, Shame, Diversion, Power leak. How will this build handle those skills? Typically WoH healers can excel in these situations since they can function decently in a low energy environment via focus swaps and and an occasional super efficent heal but I'm not sure if your heals can pack enough punch in that situation.

Anyways thats my two cents.

you are right, power block is so rare in pvp, maybe I shouldnt weaken my healing power just becuz power block. And the healing power from mend ailment and guardian is weak. Mend ailment(condition), IMO, is irreplaceable. I may do some work on guardian slot.

woh/balance stance build could work if I run a healing build(15healing/11DF)+mend ailment. Then I trun into a complete WoH healer.

I was just trying to find a balance point among anti-KD, anti-ED, Emanagement and decent healing/protection power.

The best I could come up with is this build with small healing spamming and I get to keep some utility from protection line, teammates will get spike healing only when their health drop below 50%. Utility skills from protection are for anti-spike and general healing. BTW, these small heals still heal over 100hp in every cast.

energy management in my understanding, not only include direct energy gain skills, but also has the way you and your teammates play.

your tac base warriors active Charge when they pass by you , that's energy management. your teammates aviod taking unnecessary damage, that's energy management, too. Breaking opposite team monks' RoF by small attacks such as wanding, pets' natural attack, making their RoF cant get huge chunk of healing, that is also your energy management. Everything is energy management, energy gain skills are just the obvious ones.

ppl are more concerned about energy management against mesmers' drain skills. but only a few care to think about how much energy you consumed from your teammate monk when you got KD on the ground for 3-4 sec. In this 3-4 second, your teammate monk has to handle 7 ppl, what kind of energy gain skills can make that up for your teammate monk? If any spike damage by opposite team dealt in this period of time, normally one of your teammate would die.

talk about energy management, getting KD is the worst I've seen. OoB was so powerful that making ppl underestimate other ways of energy management. After the patch, no energy gain skill is as powerful as OoB used to be. Now , maybe the time, ppl consider other ways of energy management.

My attempting here is : use the shield for damage deduction, using balance stance for standing longer. I categorized these 2 as energy management ,too.

twicky_kid · Mar 18, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

What I've read in this post is the #1 reason why most monks are HORRIBLE.

If you cannot manage your energy without using any energy gain skills you are not cut out to be a monk. Knowing when to heal is more important then spamming the heal and recovering the energy later. Yes, it is easier to do it that way but you usually give up your elite just to gain energy.

SoD and WoH are good energy skills in their own right. Sig is free with 2 sec cast. Hate the casting but can be useful in certian situations. While you are casting it you gain 2.66 energy from regen while healing for 70+ in most situations. They need to make it divine favor trigger on cast but that's another issue.

WoH should be a 1/2 second cast. 3/4 is just too much for its <50% affect to be of any use vs spike. Kind of sad that Woh is out done by infuse which is non elite.

E-denial can be completely broken by weapon swaps. There is no skill that's a cure of e denial its all player ability. The only time it can lock you down forever is from fear me wars which you might start seeing more of.

SaintGreg · Mar 19, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

E-denial can be completely broken by weapon swaps.

No it can't, there is a chance to drain you while you are in your high energy set casting a spell. Speaking in absolutes about something like that is just silly.

Quote:

My attempting here is : use the shield for damage deduction

The armor from the shield only affect attacks that hit you from the front. Attacks that hit you as a monk will mostly be coming from the back or the side, meaning you gain absolutely nothing from the shield, except for the absorption mods, which don't require tactics anyways.

coldplay · Mar 19, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

The armor from the shield only affect attacks that hit you from the front. Attacks that hit you as a monk will mostly be coming from the back or the side, meaning you gain absolutely nothing from the shield, except for the absorption mods, which don't require tactics anyways.

yeah, that's true, I completely forgot about that.

D Fault · Mar 19, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Tactics monks have been successfully run in gvg before, mainly to counter the number of gales that were brought in nearly every build.

The following is an example of one such build that was run by TSH.
I copied it from GoTW.

Monk/Warrior "Tactics Monk"
Divine Favor: 10 (8+2), Healing Prayers: 15 (12+3), Protection Prayers: 3 (2+1), Tactics: 10
Word of Healing, Vigorous Spirit, Healing Touch, Dwayna's Kiss, Holy Veil, Watch Yourself, Balanced Stance, "Shields Up!"

Tactics Monk: This is an odd monk that utilizes low cost but efficient healing spells as its form of Energy-management. It avoids personal damage through the use of various stances. Balanced Stance is to block the knockdowns of enemy Gale Warriors, while the other stances are used as damage reducers. This Monk with a sword and shield can have its armor level approach the low 100's. If extra Energy is needed it carries two or three other sets of plus-to-Energy staffs and focuses, and switches to them.