Curse

BuddyLeeX · Mar 21, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

When you use MoR, CoPing it will net you a total of 2 energy (at 9 insp).
It cost 10 for MoR, 5 for CoP, and 5 more to put boon up again.
Whoopee...

Not unless you don't run boon, i think the whole point of MoR with boon is so that you have instant energy with CoP instead of having to wait during a crucial point in time when you need it. I usually run 10 Inspiration and could easily run with 11, giving more net, but although you have a very compelling arguement about using MoR on boon prots. Honestly I think it is all relative and up to preference. I haven't run into any problems with MoR other than it being fuel for shatter enchantment mixed spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

You didn't read much of this did you?

I'm for E-drain, slight offensive ability and energy when you want. MoR doesn't always give you what you need when you need it. And as JR said it is like digging yourself into a hole. It is is like putting money into a savings bond. You put in money and it returns as more, but until you cash it you are down in total.

With CoP MoR DOES give you what you want, instant energy when needed. Considering net gains, with a normal 10 in inspiration, yes you would only get 8 energy, but at least it is a FOR SURE energy gain. With Energy Drain, you have absolutely no clue what you will be getting from that foe, you could get 8, you could get 12, you could get nothing. So how can you say that comment and be in favor of Energy Drain?

JR · Mar 21, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

With Energy Drain, you have absolutely no clue what you will be getting from that foe, you could get 8, you could get 12, you could get nothing. So how can you say that comment and be in favor of Energy Drain?

Thats complete rubbish. I have been running edrain ever since the patch, and with a bit of common sense I can find a full target easily every time. MoR is unstable trash, that any decent team will punish you for using it.

Slooty Booty · Mar 21, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

With Energy Drain, you have absolutely no clue what you will be getting from that foe, you could get 8, you could get 12, you could get nothing. So how can you say that comment and be in favor of Energy Drain?

Cost MoR: 10
Cost CoP: 5
Cost of Recasting Boon: 5
Energy Gain: 23 (with 10 insp)
Net Energy Gain: 3

3 Energy. In what situation is that acceptable? I understand you're not going to be using this combo every time, but you will use it. Sure you might not get the full 16 energy from EDrain, but you'd have to be incredibly unlucky or foolish to not get 16 4 times out of 5.

MoR has a great return when everything happens just right, but "just right" only happens against noob teams. Just look at what happens when you're rez'd. Can you afford to spend 10 energy right away to get energy later? After you, a monk, have been dead and therefore have not been healing your team? Suppose you try to heal right away. How long will it be before you're out of energy and incapable of using MoR without using your minus energy regen weapons? When you're facing a pressure or attrition build, this is exactly the moment they plan for. Mantra is a good skill, but it's far too conditional to be relied upon in GvG.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Thats complete rubbish. I have been running edrain ever since the patch, and with a bit of common sense I can find a full target easily every time. MoR is unstable trash, that any decent team will punish you for using it.

I can find a stable target easily as well, when one comes to mind I would look for an ele, bigger energy pool right? Alright well that will take you at least 2 - 3 seconds to find one and hit energy drain. In that small amount of time one of your teammates could have been spiked...I think its just too much work and leaves your team vulnerable for a couple of seconds. And please dont talk down to me just because you may be in a better guild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slooty Booty

Cost MoR: 10
Cost CoP: 5
Cost of Recasting Boon: 5
Energy Gain: 23 (with 10 insp)
Net Energy Gain: 3

3 Energy. In what situation is that acceptable? I understand you're not going to be using this combo every time, but you will use it. Sure you might not get the full 16 energy from EDrain, but you'd have to be incredibly unlucky or foolish to not get 16 4 times out of 5.

MoR has a great return when everything happens just right, but "just right" only happens against noob teams. Just look at what happens when you're rez'd. Can you afford to spend 10 energy right away to get energy later? After you, a monk, have been dead and therefore have not been healing your team? Suppose you try to heal right away. How long will it be before you're out of energy and incapable of using MoR without using your minus energy regen weapons? When you're facing a pressure or attrition build, this is exactly the moment they plan for. Mantra is a good skill, but it's far too conditional to be relied upon in GvG.

Did I ever say I used boon? You don't even know the build I run, and with my build MoR is the best alternative. Also, CoP is mainly used for dire situations when I need instant energy and/or I have a critical hex/condition on me plus i need energy.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

I can find a stable target easily as well, when one comes to mind I would look for an ele, bigger energy pool right? Alright well that will take you at least 2 - 3 seconds to find one and hit energy drain. In that small amount of time one of your teammates could have been spiked...I think its just too much work and leaves your team vulnerable for a couple of seconds. And please dont talk down to me just because you may be in a better guild.

Against spike you would just tab->drain. But then against spike you aren't going to have much of a problem finding energy rich characters, due to the nature of the build.

And I am not talking down to you because I am in a better guild. I am talking down to you because you are wrong, and stubborn.

Slooty Booty · Mar 22, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

Did I ever say I used boon? You don't even know the build I run, and with my build MoR is the best alternative. Also, CoP is mainly used for dire situations when I need instant energy and/or I have a critical hex/condition on me plus i need energy.

I suppose I don't know your build. Perhaps if you posted it I'd understand how MoR fits in. Honestly, I think every skill can find its place and MoR is a strong one. Let's see how you're using it.

D Fault · Mar 22, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

Did I ever say I used boon? You don't even know the build I run, and with my build MoR is the best alternative. Also, CoP is mainly used for dire situations when I need instant energy and/or I have a critical hex/condition on me plus i need energy.

Thats nice that you dont run boon.
However most guilds in gvg are going to use 1 or 2 boon prots.
As for CoP being for dire situations, thats what your energy management is meant to prevent/be used for. Not to mention CoPing off MoR gets low enough returns that you might as well have not bothered using the skill in the first place.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Against spike you would just tab->drain. But then against spike you aren't going to have much of a problem finding energy rich characters, due to the nature of the build.

And I am not talking down to you because I am in a better guild. I am talking down to you because you are wrong, and stubborn.

First off, you aren't right not even close and I am no more stubborn than you are. Get off your pedestal and consider the statistics behind this. Until then I won't consider what you say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slooty Booty

I suppose I don't know your build. Perhaps if you posted it I'd understand how MoR fits in. Honestly, I think every skill can find its place and MoR is a strong one. Let's see how you're using it.

In my guild build, I am the only healer rolling with 1 boon prot spammer, and 1 prot/condition monk. In regards to MoR, my bar is not important as my role in the build. I am a support/defensive monk built to keep the other monks alive and HP/Infuse. CoP also gives me the oppurtunity of a 2nd hex/condition removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

Thats nice that you dont run boon.
However most guilds in gvg are going to use 1 or 2 boon prots.
As for CoP being for dire situations, thats what your energy management is meant to prevent/be used for. Not to mention CoPing off MoR gets low enough returns that you might as well have not bothered using the skill in the first place.

As stated above, I run in an attrition guild build in which i am support heal monk to a boon prot and non boon prot. The way I use MoR/CoP at some times is like how I would use oOB, but with about -6 energy gain than if I were to use oOB. Which for me would cover a healing touch, inspired hex, or CoP in my lineup of skills. So essentially Im losing the oppurtunity to use a 5eng skill, not that bad of a loss and it has worked brilliently for me and my guild build.

Rustjive · Mar 22, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

While the CoP + MoR combo may be more palatable without boon, it still offers generally inferior numbers to EDrain. EDrain is 11 energy every 26 seconds. MoR with CoP is 8-13 energy every 21 seconds. It gives you a second hex/condition removal, but it's a highly situational hex removal compared to simply running CoP with EDrain - in a 3 monk backline with just 1 hex, you are unlikely to 'sacrifice' your MoR for the purposes of a hex.

The bottom line is if you can consistently find a suitable in-range target in less than 1 second, then E-Drain offers clear advantages over MoR.

dgb · Mar 22, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Regardless of the numbers of energy gained, MoR is simply sub-par compared to E-Drain because MoR is incredibly vulnerable to a mesmer. Furthermore, if you use it as an instant energy gain with CoP, it loses on energy values. Either you have energy management which is just screaming to be manipulated by an opposing mesmer, or you have sub par numbers coming out of it. It doesn't work either way.

As for e-drain not getting energy, I suggest you try using it before you come and say that the risk is too high. I would estimate that only 1/10 e-drains I do results in a non optimal energy ammount, and of those most are still in profit. Most targets are energy rich.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Regardless of the numbers of energy gained, MoR is simply sub-par compared to E-Drain because MoR is incredibly vulnerable to a mesmer. Furthermore, if you use it as an instant energy gain with CoP, it loses on energy values. Either you have energy management which is just screaming to be manipulated by an opposing mesmer, or you have sub par numbers coming out of it. It doesn't work either way.

As for e-drain not getting energy, I suggest you try using it before you come and say that the risk is too high. I would estimate that only 1/10 e-drains I do results in a non optimal energy ammount, and of those most are still in profit. Most targets are energy rich.

Please read the post more thorougly before you make a post like this. I have run edrain and it sucks with my guild build. Think about it, if you are attrition you are slowing wearing the other teams monk's energy(and with esurge, other chars as well), so when you edrain, you get ziltch.

Vaga · Mar 22, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I dont see why you would run MoR on a monk if you aren't running a boon prot. If you are supporting a boon prot, and a regular prot, wouldnt WoH be energy management enough?

Hella Good · Mar 22, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Factions brings a lot of new nrg management elites. I think neither MoR, nor ED will make the cut for nrg management- the net gain is just too little compared to what OoB used to offer. Not to mention other drawbacks like MoR being a chant and therefore being easily stripped, and ED dependant largely on nrg of enemies.

My advice is: don't sweat it, use either along with Inspa Hex and just chill until Factions comes out. Some of the new nrg management skills are quite promising (Cultist's Fervor, Signet of Spirits, etc.) and perhaps those will be eventually viewed as superior to MoR/ED. Reminds me, you never know if Boon Prots will still be around will the gazillion of new chant removing skills. (some quite massive, like the Order of Apostasy)

The Noble Savage · Mar 22, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slooty Booty

Cost MoR: 10
Cost CoP: 5
Cost of Recasting Boon: 5
Energy Gain: 23 (with 10 insp)
Net Energy Gain: 3

3 Energy. In what situation is that acceptable? I understand you're not going to be using this combo every time, but you will use it. Sure you might not get the full 16 energy from EDrain, but you'd have to be incredibly unlucky or foolish to not get 16 4 times out of 5.

MoR has a great return when everything happens just right, but "just right" only happens against noob teams. Just look at what happens when you're rez'd. Can you afford to spend 10 energy right away to get energy later? After you, a monk, have been dead and therefore have not been healing your team? Suppose you try to heal right away. How long will it be before you're out of energy and incapable of using MoR without using your minus energy regen weapons? When you're facing a pressure or attrition build, this is exactly the moment they plan for. Mantra is a good skill, but it's far too conditional to be relied upon in GvG.

your right but see if your going to run that as fact you also have to do this...

8x2= 16 (energy gain)
cost=5
contemplate=5
boon=5
less hexes off from contemplate and less hp

16-(5x3)=1

so technically with that equation your getting 4 from MoR and 1 from ED :P

Slooty Booty · Mar 22, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Noble Savage

your right but see if your going to run that as fact you also have to do this...

8x2= 16 (energy gain)
cost=5
contemplate=5
boon=5
less hexes off from contemplate and less hp

16-(5x3)=1

so technically with that equation your getting 4 from MoR and 1 from ED :P

Hahaha, you don't have to CoP to get energy back from EDrain, it's already instant. Your argument is invalid. You're just adding skills to the list. By your logic I'd have to add two more pointless 5 energy casts to MoR, bringing the total down to -7. My argument is 5 energy is all that's needed to get an instant energy payback, whereas MoR requires 20.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluka

I prefer Mantra of recall on a booner, a must with Contemplation of Purity.

He summed it up, its all relative. What works for you and what suits your style/build. Both can be good energy mgmt. and ED can even have better energy gains at times, but due to its nature some go with MoR to suit their playing style. Its all relative...and I agree with factions update and energy mgmt. i cant wait.

Dzan · Mar 22, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

He summed it up, its all relative. What works for you and what suits your style/build.

Actually, I already defeated that "style" arguement. Like I said, what you call "your play style" I call "bad habits that need to be changed."

E-Drain is better in all but the most ideal situations you can construct, but I'll refrain from calling it 'strictly better'; either way, refusal to use Drain because you like MoR has nothing to do with play style and has everything to do with stubborn insistance on using bad skills.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Actually, I already defeated that "style" arguement. Like I said, what you call "your play style" I call "bad habits that need to be changed."

E-Drain is better in all but the most ideal situations you can construct, but I'll refrain from calling it 'strictly better'; either way, refusal to use Drain because you like MoR has nothing to do with play style and has everything to do with stubborn insistance on using bad skills.

Your comment of "bad habit" is rediculous. And saying that Edrain is superior to any e-mgmt and anyone who believes ED>MoR and anyone who thigns MoR>ED are rediculous. I think ED has its own place in its own respected build and I believe MoR has its place in its own respected build.

This whole arguement between which skill is better has turned completey idiotic. This post reminds of of a PvE newb asking which droks warrior/ranger/monk/etc/etc/etc armor is the best, the answer is none. It is all up to what you want to do and what kind of build you want to run. Although I am talking about PvE now, somewhat, it is the same idea.

BTW, guess aW Monks have bad habits Dzan, but are still able to manage with 7 people in a GvG due to an error 7.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

MoR does have its place, yes. I personally don't think it is in this metagame however.

In a metagame populated quite largely by Burn/Surge/SoW mesmers, do you really want to run an elite energy management skill that is weak to edenial? That is entirely my opinion, I know some other top guilds are a fan of MoR.

But as for your last sentence, I could equally counter that by saying we have won a GvG with 1 monk using Edrain, after I crashed out. It does not really make much of an argument though. I'm sure someone, somewhere has won a GvG with 3 warriors using Cleave and Desperation Blow.

Anyway, I think this thread has pretty much reached it's crux.