Curse

Makkert · Mar 22, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

With somewhat of amazement I start to see guilds allready trying to form alliances. While far from impossible offcourse, I feel somewhat conservative on making alliances before knowing the exact interactions in Chapter 2.

Good guilds are forged by collections of players that have something in common, be it timezone, language, age, pvp/pve preference or the like. It's not easy to keep this common base well in tact and have all players on the same page while a guild growths. PvP guilds tend to be smaller in size, because pvp-players want to play and not sit on the bench while the core team plays PvP.

With the addition of alliances, a guild does not face the addition of a single player, but a whole collection of players. I see talk on combinations of PvE guilds with PvP guilds, since a combination of these gaming environments is supposed to be the most succesfull. A PvE team would have access to the 'elite areas', and pvp players could get a share of the benefits of this area through the pve guild maybe.

Personally I wonder if such combinations will hold on the long term. After all, if the pvp guild gets what it needs from an area in terms of items, why would such a guild still have any interest in the alliance? They don't share a common interest in the pvp/pve gaming environments. On the other side, a pve guild rather would keep the full profits from an area, then to hand over a part to a pvp guild.

What I'm trying to say, is that without common ground and a friendship tie, I have sincere doubts wether an alliance has a long life. What are your thoughts on this issue? What do you look for in an alliance partner?

kind regards,

Makkert

EDIT: crap, wrong forum probably. this probably would have been better in the Factions forum

fiery · Mar 22, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I would think that the guild and those branched off and smurfs would make an alliance.

Makkert · Mar 22, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I didn't make this thread to start forming alliances, Guardian of the Light.
And also not to advertise it.

It is started to discuss possible problems along the way of an alliance, and to discuss what would make an alliance work. Also what your guild values in an alliancepartner.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 22, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

I didn't make this thread to start forming alliances, Guardian of the Light.
And also not to advertise it.

It is started to discuss possible problems along the way of an alliance, and to discuss what would make an alliance work. Also what your guild values in an alliancepartner.

I know thats why I put the link on there. So that everyone would where to post.

clicky to make alliance making easy.

However I see the problems in keeping an alliance, Esp between a PvE and PvP guild.

Sofonisba · Mar 22, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I feel it's going to be quite a challenge, but not insurmountable.

For instance, I am already anticipating an alliance with two other guilds we've known for a long long time. We know each other already, we all have similar goals and playing styles. The challenge for us will not be ego-driven, but the opposite of that. None of us wants to be the boss of the others!

We're not out to conquer the world, we just want to share a chat tab.

studentochaos · Mar 22, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Personally I wonder if such combinations will hold on the long term. After all, if the pvp guild gets what it needs from an area in terms of items, why would such a guild still have any interest in the alliance? They don't share a common interest in the pvp/pve gaming environments. On the other side, a pve guild rather would keep the full profits from an area, then to hand over a part to a pvp guild.

What I'm trying to say, is that without common ground and a friendship tie, I have sincere doubts wether an alliance has a long life. What are your thoughts on this issue? What do you look for in an alliance partner?

Call this a hunch, but based on what I read the elite areas won't be for drops or gold, rather for bragging rights. Presumably for the whole alliance. This would suggest the elite missions are designed to challenge the players with the meanest AI Anet could muster and *very* difficult mob combinations. Currently farming and PvE is made easy by limited role mobs that don't play like a full team and you can easily control when, where, and how you begin combat. Take these attributes out and you will have missions that make even the best players sit back and shake their heads at the difficulty.

Sadly, I would have to say almost no PvE guilds right now will transition to this easily for three reasons.

1. Maybe PvE as it currently stands now fits those players tastes, but PvE players are generally soft and what awaits them in the elite mission won't be what they have been enjoying. I consider myself a PvE guy, but the fact that there is no rewards other then fancy skinned items means that there is little incentive to actually try and get better or think outside of the box. Also, since ANYONE could spend a couple bucks of real world money and have the same vanity items the rewards are pretty hollow.

2. Top guilds in PvP often share players. More so, they know and respect each other for being skilled players. This means that when they look for allies it won't be to a bunch of gold farmers.

3. In addition, how will Pve players now prove they are good? Will Pvp and rank be the only metric? Anet is too smart for this as PvP rank would be comparing apples and oranges. They will install a new way for individual players to get a "rank" of sorts for Pve (if they don't the number of complaint posts about rank system elitism will go up ten times). This will in turn lead to a likely production of more terrible PvE players as this new rank system will likely lead to ludicrous PvE fame farming methods. (I am WAYYY out on a limb with this point, but if HoH had IWAY, PvE will develop its own build of shame and my guess is it will include a minion mancer

.)

Makkert · Mar 22, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

feel it's going to be quite a challenge, but not insurmountable.

For instance, I am already anticipating an alliance with two other guilds we've known for a long long time. We know each other already, we all have similar goals and playing styles. The challenge for us will not be ego-driven, but the opposite of that. None of us wants to be the boss of the others!

We're not out to conquer the world, we just want to share a chat tab

So for your guild, it is familiarty with the guild, having the same goals, and equality that forms your alliance. Sounds like a solid ground. Though that I think I've read somewhere that one guild gives name to the alliance, a sort of 'allianceleader' if I'm not mistaken? But this sounds like a good basis. Are all guilds fixed on: pvp/pve/pvp & pve ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by studentochaos

Call this a hunch, but based on what I read the elite areas won't be for drops or gold, rather for bragging rights. Presumably for the whole alliance. This would suggest the elite missions are designed to challenge the players with the meanest AI Anet could muster and *very* difficult mob combinations. Currently farming and PvE is made easy by limited role mobs that don't play like a full team and you can easily control when, where, and how you begin combat. Take these attributes out and you will have missions that make even the best players sit back and shake their heads at the difficulty.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that. Interesting viewpoint for sure. But not sure if pvp guilds would be interested in such bragging rights, since they hold GvG higher in esteem most likely.
Then again, this system may not be designed for topguilds, but more for guilds to jump into pvp... Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Quote:

Sadly, I would have to say almost no PvE guilds right now will transition to this easily for three reasons.

1. Maybe PvE as it currently stands now fits those players tastes, but PvE players are generally soft and what awaits them in the elite mission won't be what they have been enjoying. I consider myself a PvE guy, but the fact that there is no rewards other then fancy skinned items means that there is little incentive to actually try and get better or think outside of the box. Also, since ANYONE could spend a couple bucks of real world money and have the same vanity items the rewards are pretty hollow.

Well, in that case, they can play the normal missions still, and just leave the elite missions behind. Some players play just to relax and don't need an adrenaline kick, they want to relax from the adrenalinekick from work.
And for these players, a PvE mission such as you describe might indeed turn them off. They would indeed have no incentive to have access to elite areas.

Quote:

2. Top guilds in PvP often share players. More so, they know and respect each other for being skilled players. This means that when they look for allies it won't be to a bunch of gold farmers.

/agreed
Most likely, it will turn out that way.

Quote:

3. In addition, how will Pve players now prove they are good? Will Pvp and rank be the only metric? Anet is too smart for this as PvP rank would be comparing apples and oranges. They will install a new way for individual players to get a "rank" of sorts for Pve (if they don't the number of complaint posts about rank system elitism will go up ten times). This will in turn lead to a likely production of more terrible PvE players as this new rank system will likely lead to ludicrous PvE fame farming methods. (I am WAYYY out on a limb with this point, but if HoH had IWAY, PvE will develop its own build of shame and my guess is it will include a minion mancer

.)

Well, didn't they say the Faction Missions would have some kind of ranktier system to improve replayability to become the best?
based on kills, time and .....(forgot it).
That would solve it to some degree. There is a good chance a cheese build would develop, altough nothing at the level of a 55 monk, since a single enemy player with Vampiric Gaze would make short work of the 55 monk...

Opal Bridewood · Mar 22, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Surely ANet won't introduce a new feature (alliances) without the need for them, obviously if one guild can achieve easily what a guild alliance can, the mechanism is a bit faulty.

As far as PvE and PvP goes, it seems that in Faction the border between these is a bit more shady. The resource gathering mission they told about on the offical site is a good example, while you can make it a PvP battle, the strategy for winning seems something totally different from "pure" pve or pvp. Also from the interview at gaming steve it seemed that while shifting the border involves large scale faction battles (12v12) gaining control of towns and elite missions involves these Resource Gathering and the Challenge Missions, which seem to be more pve focused (Challenges that is). So maybe PvP and PvE guilds will not be so easily distuinguished as now.

As far as forging alliances, GOTS is just touching out with its "tendrils"

so as to find out what guilds can be possible partners in alliances. As long as the exact mechanisms behind the alliance system is not known, forging alliances, is a bit of shooting in the dark.

Building up an alliance is for me an analogy for building up a guild. You don't want to get 50 members in two days in your guild (at least i hope so

), also you don't want unknown people in the guild who may or may not be a good match for those already in. So building up a lasting and good atmosphered alliance will definitely involve careful and slow progress, and not putting together 10 guilds at once. At least in my opinion.

So in my vision in a guild alliance there will be pvp, pve, players, those who enjoy the new missiontypes, and players who play all of them. I mean now in a good guild, pvp and pve players can get along perfectly well (I imagine SoF is like that) why would an Alliance be different?

Or am i just too optimistic/utopistic? Forgive for rambling...

Cheers!

Opal Bridewood · Mar 22, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Just something that came into my mind (to show the extent of how uninformed I am/we are):

We don't even know if this whole faction rivalry will be seperate on servers, or will it be a global thing...It seems logical for it to be different on each server (so on America Luxons could be winning, while on Korea the Kurzicks would be on the upper hand)...still it would be nice having guilds from different continents in an alliance. I mean in our guild for example there are some people who differ from the standard, evening playtimes, so it would be nice for them to have allied Japanese or American teams in an alliance.
Also since borders shift every 24 hour, a global alliance could have a better overall effectiveness, as opposed to a pure American alliance whose spike would be obviously in their evening hours...

But this is pure speculation, still either way it could have effect on choosing one's partners...

Ravious · Mar 22, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Well coming out of complete lurk mode, here is how I think they will work.

1. The More the Merrier Approach

This will probably be the most common Alliance. People basically crying their guild stats in some town (probably the Faction's city) and hoping that their one-line ad is enough to get them into an Alliance. The Alliance itself will probably be very disorganized and go for a zerg approach to winning cities. Guilds, and by guilds in this sense I mean the Guild Leader, will probably get fed up with the decisions of an Alliance leader, or the ineffectiveness of the Alliance and move on. Eventually due to apathy or success, these Alliances will cement themselves.

2. Organized Approach

For organized, quality guilds this will probably be the most common approach. The joining of this Alliance will not be super strict, but it will be closed, in that they just won't let any doofus guild in. There will most likely be a common Alliance forum, events for the Alliance, a council of decision makers, etc. These Alliances will not be as common as the zerg ones, but they will probably be more effective. IMHO, this is the best approach for receinving the benefits of Factions complete gameplay.

I also think this is the best approach because it will likely spread the rewards/play the thickest across the game board. Some of the players in the Alliance may only care about PvP, some may only like the Elite Missions that the Alliance win, etc., and I believe that this Alliance will cement itself the farthest as the benefits of this Approach are greatest, even though the success may not be as high as the next Approach.

3. Xenophobic Approach

For the super-small GvG guilds and well-known guilds, I believe this will be their approach. They will assume command of their Alliance and only let in the other guilds that they feel they should let in. The Alliance will probably be super focused and very strict in its approach to things. This will probably be the most effective Alliance approach, but I believe it will sacrifice some of the fun and make it "work." Of course, many players prefer this method and so it should not be considered bad.

For this approach's reason, I also believe that this is why we will not have some super-dominating ultra-mega 10-guild supreme overlords of Factions Alliance. Top guilds will not want to be told what to do by other top guilds.

Conclusion

I think that in the beginning of Factions we will immediately see all three Approaches, along with guild movement in all three. I think it is beneficial for guilds to start considering which Approach they will want to be in, what the Alliance should be comprised of, and possible guilds that may help fill the Alliance.

We may not have all the Alliance answers now, but it can't hurt to discuss possibilities and at least get your foot in the door.

studentochaos · Mar 22, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Well, in that case, they can play the normal missions still, and just leave the elite missions behind. Some players play just to relax and don't need an adrenaline kick, they want to relax from the adrenalinekick from work.
And for these players, a PvE mission such as you describe might indeed turn them off. They would indeed have no incentive to have access to elite areas.

/agreed
However, lots of people don't do GvG at all but enjoy CA and TA. I have a feeling this will go a similar way with it being for some people and not others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Well, didn't they say the Faction Missions would have some kind of ranktier system to improve replayability to become the best?
based on kills, time and .....(forgot it).
That would solve it to some degree. There is a good chance a cheese build would develop, altough nothing at the level of a 55 monk, since a single enemy player with Vampiric Gaze would make short work of the 55 monk...

I kinda cheated with sounding like I was somehow insightful. They did say this you are right (though they were quite vague). You are also right the 55 monk won't be viable at all. Actually the 55 will never find a worthwhile farming spot ever again. Look at sorrows furnace and the Queen farming. Both are a slap in the face to the current methods of solo farming. That doesn't mean a new monster can't be born.......

The great ladder players will do these missions as well. My evidence is that lots of top GvG player hate HoH, but they still worked their tails off to get rank6/9 emotes. Bragging rights are worth more then any amount of gold or time to some and this will probably appeal to those same people. (This is not a flame on anybody, people like to sense achievement and this is a solid method.)

Ensign · Mar 22, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

We don't know what the benefits of an alliance are just yet, so it's kinda premature to decide what we're looking for in a formal 'ally'. Alliances will be formed with some distinct goal in mind, and the allies we take on will be picked for that purpose. Until we know how cities are captured, how they are held, and what the benefits are holding are the discussion is limited to testing the waters.

Peace,
-CxE

Count to Potato · Mar 22, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Im scared, of a top four guild alliance or something, that will dominate the world, this would allow others players who are less fortunate to already start out in a bad position

96TSi · Mar 22, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

i didnt get to read all of what was posted so if my addition was mentioned, oops

i think some of the top guilds who always compete each other for guild rank/hoh will form an alliance and it will control alot of "area" for alot of time making the daily update of what side controls somewhat null.

PVP forming an Alliance with PVE? only if its well organized.

Random Alliances spammed in towns? oh yea, as bad as guild recruiting is in ascalon city lol. people doing that will form a new way of chat. GLOBAL CHAT

The Alliance that will win their faction battles will NOT be involved with PVE guilds after the new-ness of the game wears off imo

.02