Curse

tafy69 · Mar 19, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

How important would be having a BiP or Blood Ritual in a GvG build purely to help out the Monks with some energy management?

Currently our monks are having imense problems to dual surge GvG builds, and they moan like hell about the fact some meser is draining them all the time.

Lets focus on a 1v1 for now, Surge vs Boon/Prot. Or a 2v2 as it commonly is in GvG

Lets assume the buid cant shut them down, the monks are in some trouble.

With BR giving +3 energy regen your monks will have +6 total regen, 6 energy every 3 seconds. Basically a spell can be cast every 3 seconds. And faster recovery when u swap to minus energy sets etc.

So is it worth changing the build slightly to have a BR on a caster for monk support, or is it not really necessary?

JR · Mar 19, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

So is it worth changing the build slightly to have a BR on a caster for monk support, or is it not really necessary?

For as long as the surge/burn trend is around, I would say yes. However that also depends on your build, and the amount of shutdown you have for those mesmers.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Mar 19, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I gave BiP to a E/N snarer in my build. They, the monks, find it vary helpful and it works. If you have a character with points in blood why not go for it. And for 5 pips of regen for BiP you only need 8 points in blood

Edit: awful grammar

Dzan · Mar 19, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Blood Ritual is usually pretty useful. BiP is less useful to me, simply because I am opposed to the idea of wasting an elite on character for outsourced energy management.

zoozoc · Mar 19, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

if you have a necro or someone who dabbles in blod, why not bring blood ritual, but you shouldnt go out of your way just for that extra energy, the problem might simply be solved by disrupting the e-drainers or by adding some extra healing from heal party etc.

Billiard · Mar 20, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Somehow your team needs to deal with energy denial. This might be BiP or BR or it could be shutting down/DPing out the offending Mesmers. Figure out which way works best/makes the most sense for you team, and then be sure to recognize when you need to take these actions and execute.

glenn_rolfe · Mar 20, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

BR and BIP are nice to have if you can fit it. But monks need to learn how to deal with it themselves first. They should have a negative energy item in their man hand, so their starting pool of energy is something around 31 I think. In the off hand they can weapon switch about 27 egy that cannot be denied if yuo are contantly weapon switching.

Using BR and BIP will just fuel the damage from surge and burn, so better to learn how to focus swap efficiently. Since mesmers really don't have room in their bars to mind wrack you death in GvG, this is really the best option.

Vindexus · Mar 20, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Using BR and BIP will just fuel the damage from surge and burn

I agree and think that all monks should maintain four enchantments to keep their energy constantly at zero. That way they won't take any Surge/Burn damage.

On a less sarcastic note, BR is an awesome skill, and since N/Mo's are the best character it isn't hard to fit into a build.

SaintGreg · Mar 20, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

I agree that BR is a useful skill to have, but these two things in your original post seemed a bit confusing to me:

Quote:

Currently our monks are having imense problems to dual surge GvG builds

Quote:

Lets assume the buid cant shut them down

If you know what is giving your build problems and you see it often, why not focus on how to change your build to be less vulnerable to that. Blood rit might be one way, but it seems a little obvious that if something is giving you trouble you would find a way around it.

Quote:

Using BR and BIP will just fuel the damage from surge and burn, so better to learn how to focus swap efficiently

If they don't know how to focus swap already, blood ritual isn't going to help.

tafy69 · Mar 20, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Problem with mesmers is that they are kinda hard to shutdown, and quite often they have 2 of them. If BR goes to help vs alot of that edenial then I would rather do that than do mesmer tradeoffs in GvG.

Edit: Focus Swap does help a bit ofcourse, but monks still get owned. If lots of pressure is being applied then focus swapping will only get you so far. OOB is gone now and its harder to get out of the S**t.

JR · Mar 20, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Problem with mesmers is that they are kinda hard to shutdown, and quite often they have 2 of them. If BR goes to help vs alot of that edenial then I would rather do that than do mesmer tradeoffs in GvG.

Agreed. If the only way you can really pressure those Mesmers is to put your warriors on them while they kite and use Distortion, it really isn't worth sacraficing your offense. I would rather have a guy Blood Ritualing my monks, and have my warriors able to drop easier targets. However, as stated before if you have a build that is able to shut them down *and* still be offensive, you don't need the Blood Ritual as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Edit: Focus Swap does help a bit ofcourse, but monks still get owned. If lots of pressure is being applied then focus swapping will only get you so far. OOB is gone now and its harder to get out of the S**t.

Against decent Mesmers that know what they are doing, you are quite right; unpressured they will make your monks lives hell. Focus swapping means you can pump out the occasional few heals, but against the usual two warrior offense that really isn't going to cut it. It's basicly a waiting game for them to get lucky and spike someone while you are empty.

Which is why in a metagame where Burn/Surge is so popular, you *have* to be able to punish the mesmers when they extend onto your monks. Either that or take skills that allow you to power through it.

Mr Urthadar · Mar 20, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Given how popular esurge/eburn is, would it make sense to squeeze in Signet Of Humility somewhere? Maybe couple this with Mantra of Inscriptions so you can humble more than one mesmer.

Of course using mantra of inscriptions for one signet may be a waste, but it's a thought.

ju

Akhilleus · Mar 20, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

if you're running a balanced-build, a blood-spike/br necro can be an invaluable resource.
they can do considerable damage, and provide monks and other casters with energy, and in general keep their own energy output at maximum or near to it.

the essential skills are shadow strike, dark PACT, vampiric gaze, defile flesh, malaise, blood-ritual, oob and a resurrect.
TBH awaken the blood is a tad overrated unless you're running pure necro spike, so its not necissary here.
with 16 in blood-magic (sup rune), 4 in curses (minor rune) and the rest into soul-reaping (minor rune; about lvl 11-13 after rune), you should function quite well.
you have about 220 armor-ignoring spike-damage (which can be cycled pretty much constantly), 10 secconds of +3 mana regen for allies, the ability to lower an enemy targets hp gain from healing skills by 30%, the ability to inflict -2 energy regen on an enemy target, and steal considerable amounts of hp, which helps to balance out the loss of HP from sacrifices.
a fairly versatile build, with some pretty good killing power, good caster support, and light hex ability; overall very useful. with about 11-13 in soul reaping and a 21 energy oob, unless you are the target of energy denial, you should be at full the vast majority of the time. and toe to toe, you can usually bring down an e-denial mesmer who isnt propperly backed up; if they focus e-denial on you, oob can bring it back up, and at least the energy wont be taken form your monks.

Vindexus · Mar 20, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

the essential skills are shadow strike, dark bond, vampiric gaze, defile flesh, malaise, blood-ritual, oob and a resurrect.

I'd just like to stop right here and say that this is subpar skill bar. Life Siphon isn't even on it, and that skill is really good. Defile Flesh is all right I guess, but it has a high Sac amount and a high recharge. What is Dark Bond? I can't even find it on GWFreaks.

Malaise isn't all that great. I don't like skills that are countered with F1 and F2. (IE: Swapping down to your negative energy set to remove it).

I don't really know what you have Shadow Strike or Vampiric Gaze in there. Those are mostly for spike builds, and if you're running a spike build I don't know why you have hexes.

Quote:

TBH awaken the blood is a tad overrated unless you're running pure necro spike, so its not necissary here.
with 16 in blood-magic (sup rune), 4 in curses (minor rune) and the rest into soul-reaping (minor rune; about lvl 11-13 after rune), you should function quite well.

Soul Reaping is only good in Heroe's Ascent, and I'm basing that off of second hand information, as I've never run Soul Reaping at that high of a level, ever.

Quote:

you have about 220 armor-ignoring spike-damage (which can be cycled pretty much constantly),

Your spike is 100 damage, I don't know where that extra 120 is coming from.

Dzan · Mar 20, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I think he is counting Shadow Strike as the full 100, rather than 50.

This thread has sorta morphed from a discussion of outsourced energy management into how to break dual energy denial teams.

As far as dual burners are concerned, if your only solution is to BR and BiP, that won't be enough. You need to be proactive against the mesmers if they are causing you problems because passive solutions like BR are just playing into their hands.

Savio · Mar 20, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

What is Dark Bond? I can't even find it on GWFreaks.

Offtopic: why the hell is GWFreaks refusing to update for me? I can't get the March 2 skill update.

Ontopic: it's under Blood Magic.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/285-dark-bond

Quote:

For the next 30-54 seconds, whenever you receive damage, your closest minion suffers 75% of that damage for you.

I really, really hope he means something else.

Shen Xi · Mar 21, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

well going on what he said about necro spiking i'll choose to believe he actually meant dark pact and not dark bond...

Akhilleus · Mar 21, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

yeah, as i mention in this post, i was typing quickly, as i was making some psts before leaving for work; i meant to say dark pact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I'd just like to stop right here and say that this is subpar skill bar. Life Siphon isn't even on it, and that skill is really good. Defile Flesh is all right I guess, but it has a high Sac amount and a high recharge. What is Dark Bond? I can't even find it on GWFreaks.

Malaise isn't all that great. I don't like skills that are countered with F1 and F2. (IE: Swapping down to your negative energy set to remove it).

I don't really know what you have Shadow Strike or Vampiric Gaze in there. Those are mostly for spike builds, and if you're running a spike build I don't know why you have hexes.

Soul Reaping is only good in Heroe's Ascent, and I'm basing that off of second hand information, as I've never run Soul Reaping at that high of a level, ever.

Your spike is 100 damage, I don't know where that extra 120 is coming from.

54+54 (shadow X2 when foe is +50% hp), +54 for dark-pact (meant to say dark pact instead of dark bond, my bad, i was leaving for work and typing fast) and +63 for vampiric gaze. 54+54+54+63=225
its actually more like a 279 point spike since dark-pact can be triggered immidiatly after vampiric gaze, and 333 if you use DP+SS+DP+VG+DP in that order.
as for defile flesh not being useful; it lowers the amount of HP they gain from heals by 30%...one of the more devastating hex combinations in the game is defile flesh+lingering curse, often with parasitic bond as a cover-hex; lowering the amount of heal gained by 60% (technically 70%, but GW tends to round down on each curse's effects).
malaise is useful not on a foe at low energy, but one at high-energy, since it lowers the return they have. its not the master of all skills, but it works, and with a 10 seccond recharge its gets pretty highly annoying.
as for life siphon; no thanks, i would parasitic bond over LS any day of the week, except life-siphon being a blood-related skill does give it an advantage when using a blood-build.
the reason i like this build is, if you had read the main topic, they were discussing the addition of a pure BR/BiP necro into a gvg team; which i consider a massive waste, when BR alone can get the job done (yes BiP is better, but i dont think it justifies taking up an elite slot).. this build can help the team with energy, and deliver a pretty good amount of spike damage.

but this is a blood-main build; with a minor level into curses, at most. the skillpoints into curses is just enough to put malaise and defile flesh past their cooldown rates; the sould-reaping is just there as an added bonus; and at higher levels, it DOES help. you could of course dump the points into curses instead; but most casual-hexers justget the stuff stripped after a few secconds, so in practicality, unless you're using a full-hex build, with cover hexes, its not all that useful to mass points into it.

Hunter Killer · Mar 21, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

The first and biggest problem you are making here is letting the mesmers go at your monks. If that ever happens, dont plan on living for long.

The idea of GvG is to from a "Front-line"/"back-line" type of formation, meaning monks will be in far back line, elementalists/mesmers/necros/rangers in the mid-offensive line, and finally the warriors in the far front line. The idea is for warriors to have enough defense/life (endure pain) to be able to buy enough time to run back to the range of their monks before they are dead. Meanwhile, if mesmers try to move up to surge/burn your monks, that would put them somewhere between your front line and mid line, and at this point, making them extremely vulnerable to your warrior/casters. This is when you have your warriors "cave in" on the mesmers, and wreak havoc on them, hopefully killing them and even when failing to do so, push them back into their back line and away from your monks.

This is the strategical approach we use vs shutdown mesmers and it works extremely well, and this is all as opposed to a skill-based solution that might/might not work.

tafy69 · Mar 21, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Well you can try and spike these mesmers but its actually quite hard to do, first is distortion and second is their spider sence that danger is aproaching their way.

The monks also know that these mesmers are 1st on any target hitlist and prot accordingly.

Sometimes you gota stop on the defensive and go on the offensive, otherwise you get the mesmer v mesmer or warrior v mesmer untill vod.