Curse

tafy69 · Mar 21, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Some guys in my guild (PVE'ers) have been going on about their low Req bow doing more critical hits than their req11 bow etc etc

The search here is down so I cant search the forum to see if this has been talked about before, personally I think aslong you meet the REQ it does exactly the same amount of critical hits as a low req.

Please can you provide me with a link to some proof or something, GuildWiki doesnt mention weapon req in its pages about critical hits

Fell free to move this thread if u like

JR · Mar 21, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I'll try and make this simple, because it is a question that comes up fairly often.

Example One:
Guy one has a 13 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 16 Axe Mastery.
Guy two has a 7 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 16 Axe Mastery.

Both will do exactly the maximum base damage. Both will get the maximum base critical hit rate. No difference at all.

Example two:
Guy one has a 13 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 12 Axe Mastery.
Guy two has a 7 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 12 Axe Mastery.

Guy one will do minimal damage, due to not meeting the requirment of his axe. Guy two will have standard damage and critical hit rate for 12 Axe Mastery.

Example three:
Guy one has a 12 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 12 Axe Mastery.
Guy two has a 7 req max 15^50 axe, and runs with 12 Axe Mastery.

As with example one, both will do exactly the same base damage. Both will get the same base critical hit rate. It wont be max as with example one, due to not having maximum spec in Axe Mastery. However, that is the only difference.

Requirment only effects damage if you don't meet it.

Try not to listen to "PvE players" in technical matters like this. As with Sundering mods, the majority of them seem to think price = quality. This is why it has always puzzled me why low req weapons go for such high prices...

coldplay · Mar 21, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Some guys in my guild (PVE'ers) have been going on about their low Req bow doing more critical hits than their req11 bow etc etc

The search here is down so I cant search the forum to see if this has been talked about before, personally I think aslong you meet the REQ it does exactly the same amount of critical hits as a low req.

Please can you provide me with a link to some proof or something, GuildWiki doesnt mention weapon req in its pages about critical hits

Fell free to move this thread if u like

It was true at the very beginning of GW history, A-net made this kind thing gone a long time ago

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

damage for a weapon that you do not have the requirement is reduced by 50% and many weapons have other mods that are effected by requirements as well, so you might be getting 50% of that damage and not getting the bonus dmg either.

as for why low requirement weapons are worth a lot in PvE, the reason is that many PvE players will have a wide spread of attributes, to make them more versitile, thus having lower attributes in one specific area. Your typical axe/shock warrior while dominates pvp, is not very popular in PvE due to the fact that it is very reliant on a monk healing it, whereas many pve warriors will run defensive stances and healing sigs, because the fact that they might not always get a monk that is worth a crap, or any monk at all.

Wrath Of Dragons · Mar 21, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

damage for a weapon that you do not have the requirement is reduced by 50% and many weapons have other mods that are effected by requirements as well, so you might be getting 50% of that damage and not getting the bonus dmg either.

no, i think its brought to starter weapon power

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons

no, i think its brought to starter weapon power

I can't test it atm, but its an easy test, go make a pvp toon, have 8 when its a 9 req weapon, hit a suit of armor, boost up 1 to get the 9 then hit it again, try hitting it 5-6 times with each stat to get an accurate read.

Im pretty sure its 50% but I could be wrong, and btw, what is starter weapon dmg? arent they all different?

coldplay · Mar 21, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons

no, i think its brought to starter weapon power

/agreed

Savio · Mar 21, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I can't test it atm, but its an easy test, go make a pvp toon, have 8 when its a 9 req weapon, hit a suit of armor, boost up 1 to get the 9 then hit it again, try hitting it 5-6 times with each stat to get an accurate read.

Im pretty sure its 50% but I could be wrong, and btw, what is starter weapon dmg? arent they all different?

It's brought to starter weapon damage, end of story.

Ensign · Mar 21, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Collector, green, and PvP items go to minimum starter weapon power if you don't meet the requirement.

Dropped items are a bit weird, since it scales - I believe they function at half effectiveness if you don't meet the requirement. In many cases, half effectiveness for a perfect item is exactly the same as a max item with no requirement.

Peace,
-CxE

Savio · Mar 22, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Collector, green, and PvP items go to minimum starter weapon power if you don't meet the requirement.

Dropped items are a bit weird, since it scales - I believe they function at half effectiveness if you don't meet the requirement. In many cases, half effectiveness for a perfect item is exactly the same as a max item with no requirement.

Peace,
-CxE

Wasn't sure about dropped weapons; I'll have to test that out more, it looks like half damage. I don't get what "In many cases, half effectiveness for a perfect item is exactly the same as a max item with no requirement" means though; can you elaborate?

Wrath Of Dragons · Mar 22, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Wasn't sure about dropped weapons; I'll have to test that out more, it looks like half damage. I don't get what "In many cases, half effectiveness for a perfect item is exactly the same as a max item with no requirement" means though; can you elaborate?

i think he means: a req 0 max-for-req-0 axe (5-12?) does about the same damage as a 6-28 max damage ax without requirement met

Ensign · Mar 22, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Wasn't sure about dropped weapons; I'll have to test that out more, it looks like half damage. I don't get what "In many cases, half effectiveness for a perfect item is exactly the same as a max item with no requirement" means though; can you elaborate?

Max shields are 16 AL, you can find 8 AL shields without reqs. 12 energy on a focus with req, 6 energy without (AFAIK). Maybe weapons don't go all the way to half, but in several cases the 'max' effect is double of what you can get without a requirement.

If someone wants to test, say, a sword to see if it's 8-11 or less if you don't meet the req, please do and post results. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Seef II · Mar 22, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Tested outside of port sledge on grawl with these:
Peppermint, 10 AL req0
Magmas, 16 AL req7 strength
Tanzit's Defender, 16 AL req9 strength.
Defensive staff of Defense (5+4=9 AL)
of Defense weapon (5 AL)
No Shield

Using the melee grawl for autocrits:
Peppermint shield gives 10 AL as advertised
9 AL was used to check how much AL dropped shields gave
Dropped shields give 8 AL if you fail the requirements
+5 armor scroll and +5 weapon both tested the same value
and the collectors and green shields also gave 5 AL.

Cliff's:
Meet Req (16) > Peppermint (10) > Dropped (8) > Collector's/Greens (5) > No focus

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldplay

It was true at the very beginning of GW history, A-net made this kind thing gone a long time ago

Very true. I played this game since it was released (see my registration date). At the beginning, there is bonus damage if your attribute points are over the requirement. But it has been fixed and removed. Too bad...

However, as Mage Henchnem said, a low requirement weapon will give you more flexibility and diversity on distributing your attribute points, so that you can use your weapons in both PVE and PVP.

From my own experience, I do think that a lower requirement weapons do higher average damage (but not higher max or base damage). It is not officially proven but it is what I observed when I compare a req 8 and req 13 weapon.

FYI, some people even start a false rumor that a high req weapon will have higher chance for critical hits. This is COMPLETELY WRONG. Your chance to have critical hits all depends on your attribute points, not the weapon requirement. It's just some losers trying to sell their req 13 weapons easier by saying that.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

From my own experience, I do think that a lower requirement weapons do higher average damage (but not higher max or base damage). It is not officially proven but it is what I observed when I compare a req 8 and req 13 weapon.

Your experience is wrong.

Savio · Mar 22, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

@lzlz: JR's post, the 2nd in the thread, already covers all of that.

As for the low weapons damage thing, I'm sitting here with a 9-13 Bow, req. 2, and I don't really know of an accurate way to test damage.

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Your experience is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

@lzlz: JR's post, the 2nd in the thread, already covers all of that.

As for the low weapons damage thing, I'm sitting here with a 9-13 Bow, req. 2, and I don't really know of an accurate way to test damage.

I test the damage by comparing a 15-22+15%^50 sword (req 7) and a 15-22+15%^50 sword (req 13). I tried to test with 16 swordmanship.

The test is simple. Go to Isle of the Nameless. Keep hitting the suit of armor again and again with different swords and count the time needed.

I found that 9/10 of the time the req 7 sword destroyed the Suit of Armor 1-2 seconds faster than the req 13 swords. The critical chance is almost the same but the average damage is generally 2-4 higher.

Try it yourself.

Seef II · Mar 22, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Except that 10 samples is not significant at all. Do it another 90, 990, 9990 times and then we'll see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

As for the low weapons damage thing, I'm sitting here with a 9-13 Bow, req. 2, and I don't really know of an accurate way to test damage.

Try a 9-13 req0 bow and test damage. But you'll need a junk starter bow from presearing (3-5 req0)...

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Except that 10 samples is not significant at all. Do it another 90, 990, 9990 times and then we'll see.

Try a 9-13 req0 bow and test damage. But you'll need a junk starter bow from presearing (3-5 req0)...

I see no point to argue this. You can just try it yourself to prove it. We all know the damage is by random but there may be "factors" to determine that.

I only see that a lower requirement will have higher chance for more positive effects. I am rich anyway. I don't mind paying 100k+ more for a perfect req. 7 sword than a ugly req. 13 sword

BTW, a weapon with 13 req usually comes with some "good" mods (like Fortitude, Life Stealing...etc.). They usually have higher value when you sell them to NPC. The best one I ever got is a Gold Fellblade (req.12) with 468gold value to NPC. All those 7 req weapons actually come with crappy mods at the beginning. It's just people modify them with expensive mods to make them perfect. And that is the reason why lower req "perfect" weapons are so rare and expensive.

Compare to the stupid 1.5m "Pine Nut" FoW warrior armor, I found a good weapon much more worthy to invest.

Seef II · Mar 22, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

I see no point to argue this. You can just try it yourself to prove it. We all know the damage is by random but there may be "factors" to determine that.

Precisely why you test a lot of hits so the significance of any variation in your data can be determined.