Curse

wheel · Feb 16, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

We did this last night versus an Obisidian Flame spike team, although not quickly enough. It worked beautifully.

We just ran past them as a group, attempting to gale obflames on the way, and went into their base. They had no way of controlling our movement because positioning isn't a big deal vs a spike team that doesn't neeed LoS. They followed us into their base and our flagger catapulted them. Even if he hadn't, they're flag runner would've had to fight through us to run the flag, then he'd have to duel our flag runner. Basically, the can spike us out all they want, we're getting morale and your NPCs are dying.

Interesting. I'd never have thought to do this

yangster · Feb 16, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

For the fire map, I've seen a guild, during the playoffs, send 2 Rangers with conditions and other stuff and killed both Sentinels. They got through and killed couple of NPCs before the opponenet's monk got there. I think it was Team Union that did this, a Korean guild. But they still lost because it was late in the game.

Maybe this will work with better with casters. It seems like it'll work.

Bio-Flame · Mar 12, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I don't understand one thing: you propose to run through the spike team towards their base?

Doesn't that imply getting two or 3 (or more) players killed?

Or did you mean to go around them (through the other paths)?
In either case you'd be negleting the flag?

I am fairly new to GvG so I am quite sure there's something I am missing in your logic.

wheel · Mar 12, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I don't understand one thing: you propose to run through the spike team towards their base?

Doesn't that imply getting two or 3 (or more) players killed?

Or did you mean to go around them (through the other paths)?
In either case you'd be negleting the flag?

I am fairly new to GvG so I am quite sure there's something I am missing in your logic.

You push forward through the main path (not through the Flame Sentinels) and pressure them to fall back. You have to keep disrupting their spike as you push forward to delay the spike's power. Then, you can push forward into their NPCs and force them to waste energy on them, as well as the fact that their flagger will have to run through your team as well as your flagger to cap the flag. Read all my posts clearly again.

No matter where you are on the map, they're going to be trying to spike you, so you might as well make it hard for them and push into their NPCs and make it easier to force morale.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Mar 12, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by yangster

For the fire map, I've seen a guild, during the playoffs, send 2 Rangers with conditions and other stuff and killed both Sentinels. They got through and killed couple of NPCs

A little off-topic:
What skills do the flame sentinels have? I think they're level 28, but I was just curious. I have never tried going the back way on that particular map.

Vaga · Mar 12, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I logged on to see Wheel and Final Dynasty turtling versus spike on observer mode lol. Anyway thanks for the insight.

wheel · Mar 12, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I logged on to see Wheel and Final Dynasty turtling versus spike on observer mode lol. Anyway thanks for the insight.

That wasn't Final Dynasty, thanks. It's No Tolerance [nT]. I was simply guesting for them. I wasn't running the group.

For what it's worth, we didn't do anything correctly, which placed us in the position of having to turtle. The only thing stopping their spikes was Prot Spirit and Infuse Health, and we didn't pressure them at all. We lost.

Ensign · Mar 12, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Do you have a character in your build that can solo their base? Good. Let them spike once, then have that character run past them and solo the base. Cap the flag immediately to put them on a clock. Fire map is great for base soloing, there are only those two archers on top before you have free shots at their flag and lord defenses.

If spike is any good they'll have a flagger who could potentially kill you 1v1 so you'll have to play the stall game against him while waiting for morale, or at the very least you'd be forcing them to fight two men down if they wanted to run flags. If they aren't as good, they won't have a flagger who can kill you, which means they have to send back several people to chase you out...giving the flagstand team a huge powerplay.

Spike does not adjust to losing characters very well. Split them up however you can to maximize your chance of winning.

Peace,
-CxE

zoozoc · Mar 12, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

whenever we play on the fire map, we simply take out the sentinels and then split. It probably isnt the best tactical descision, but id rather screw them over and be able to split quite effectivly, then risk facing them 8v8 (which isnt our strong point). The fire hall is really a very easy map to kill npcs on. And if the team dosnt send ppl back, the lord will get ganked pretty quickly.

Vindexus · Mar 12, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I logged on to see Wheel and Final Dynasty turtling versus spike on observer mode lol. Anyway thanks for the insight.

No you didn't, lol.

Parkerbsb · Mar 13, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Wheel you ever think about compiling all that info on spiking into a guide? One of the best reads I've had about tactics in quite some time

Vaga · Mar 14, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

My bad :X

BuddyLeeX · Mar 21, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

On the fire map, yes the best solution if you do not have infusers or very slow boon prot/mantra monks, the best solution is to push, and push them back to their base, try to kill a few archers and a bodyguard or two in their base then wait for a VoD, otherwise you are asking it by trying to kill everything and them at their own base on that map.

With my guilds attrition build, we have an infuser(me) and our guildhall is the lava guildhall as well, which works well because we do not play well against split teams. I also had the oppurtunity to infuse against a semi ok rated spike team(324 i believe) and what we did was exactly what i stated. Pushed them back in their base, kill their henchmen including their archers and then retreat for VoD.

This team, was a decent spike but unfortuntely had some poor leadership. Their tactic near VoD was to push through the sentinals and gank our guild lord. I guess you could say it was somewhat a gamble and not a smart nor dumb decision, considering we had all henchmen and archers, which would benefit from Winnowing and Favorable Winds. We simply sent me, another monk a warrior and our flag runner back to the base to defend, and had the offensive go kill their guildlord, which we won.

Just pressure ranger spike and interupt their spike, or any spike for that matter, and you should be fine.

Hunter Killer · Mar 22, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Actually I agree with Wheel and Ensign, the best way to deal with Spike usually is to split them in whichever way possible, or put them at a positional disadvantage.

What alot of people are getting out of this is you run past them blindly like idiots while they spike you down and hope to get to their base.

No, that's not the case, you still have to be cautious and do what you can to hinder their spikes with your offense/utility. Movement and mobility is your friend in this case.

Another thing is, characters in a spike are not very independent usually, besides maybe the flagger, in which case, if you have your flagger in their base, you can usually duel and kill the flagger (which is usually meant to assist their overall spike, crippling the actual flagger build a bit), or even stall it long enough to gain a morale. The biggest point in attempting to split spike builds is the fact that spike builds are very dependent on being together, when split, straight up spikes cannot do much.

On the fire map, a ranger with a longbow can hit the flame sentinels without being in range of their attacks, meaning you can take out a sentinel without getting hit once in the vicinity of 2:00. Now whether or not this is enough time, it depends on your situation, but usually even turtling buys you enough time to finish the sentinels and enable you to split effectively. From then on, its cake if handled well.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Killer

Actually I agree with Wheel and Ensign, the best way to deal with Spike usually is to split them in whichever way possible, or put them at a positional disadvantage.

What alot of people are getting out of this is you run past them blindly like idiots while they spike you down and hope to get to their base.

No, that's not the case, you still have to be cautious and do what you can to hinder their spikes with your offense/utility. Movement and mobility is your friend in this case.

Another thing is, characters in a spike are not very independent usually, besides maybe the flagger, in which case, if you have your flagger in their base, you can usually duel and kill the flagger (which is usually meant to assist their overall spike, crippling the actual flagger build a bit), or even stall it long enough to gain a morale. The biggest point in attempting to split spike builds is the fact that spike builds are very dependent on being together, when split, straight up spikes cannot do much.

On the fire map, a ranger with a longbow can hit the flame sentinels without being in range of their attacks, meaning you can take out a sentinel without getting hit once in the vicinity of 2:00. Now whether or not this is enough time, it depends on your situation, but usually even turtling buys you enough time to finish the sentinels and enable you to split effectively. From then on, its cake if handled well.

I think where he got running past them blindly while getting picked off is on the fire map, since there isnt really an easy way to split on that map. But I do agree the best way to take them on is probably by splitting up, but if its a smart team, then will just rush in your base and finish the game.

I have a few good examples of when my guild faced a few spike teams, and what went wrong and what went right. First team we faced was, a not so on time spike, sometimes their spike was perfect others it wasnt even close. That didn't matter, because the main reason why it wasn't on time was because our offense interupted many of their spikes, forcing them to play more defensive and gradually making them fall back further and further into their base, allowing us to kill their bodygaurds and wait for VoD to go ahead and split and gank their GL.

A couple other times, we faced a couple top well known rspike teams, including team union, at which we couldn't interupt any of their spikes, not allowing the infuser to get a faster infuse. The reason we couldn't split was because this was at our guild hall, the fire map. If it wouldn't had been here we probably would have had a better chance at winning. So if you can interupt their spikes straight up against them, any spike is infusable or boon spammable.

icemonkey · Mar 22, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

I watched Zaishen, who runs a 7 N/Mo blood spike on fire hall, face iGi and highly evolved.
Clearly both of these guilds knew what zaishen was doing and they sat around their base at beginning and gave the sentinals a shot. so unless you attack sentinals with a ranger or maybe a caster yer dead gg. The sentinals murdered Evo's entire team when they went back way, zaishen won in 7 minutes. iGi tried to fight them, they went down slowly but surely, tried to outmaneuver, but one of the necros is N/W and has charge. So whoever goes past is immediatly folowed and spiked down. intterupts dont work well because there are so many spikers and the spike is always shadow then vamp gaze, too much damage. After iGi lost several they retreated and lost a few more on the way. The couple that were left went to get killed by the sentinels, then iGi raged at about 6 miniutes.

Watch out for zaishen they will ruin your day, and fire map when played properly is a nightmare. There is very little you can do against a prepared team.

a side note: two cry of frustrations should eliminate blood spike completely(they do not use QZ).

Dion Star · Mar 22, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

I watched Zaishen, who runs a 7 N/Mo blood spike on fire hall, face iGi and highly evolved.
Clearly both of these guilds knew what zaishen was doing and they sat around their base at beginning and gave the sentinals a shot. so unless you attack sentinals with a ranger or maybe a caster yer dead gg. The sentinals murdered Evo's entire team when they went back way, zaishen won in 7 minutes. iGi tried to fight them, they went down slowly but surely, tried to outmaneuver, but one of the necros is N/W and has charge. So whoever goes past is immediatly folowed and spiked down. intterupts dont work well because there are so many spikers and the spike is always shadow then vamp gaze, too much damage. After iGi lost several they retreated and lost a few more on the way. The couple that were left went to get killed by the sentinels, then iGi raged at about 6 miniutes.

Watch out for zaishen they will ruin your day, and fire map when played properly is a nightmare. There is very little you can do against a prepared team.

a side note: two cry of frustrations should eliminate blood spike completely(they do not use QZ).

If you run a guy up on the sentinel he will turn to physical damage. You can take out both Sentinels in less then 2 minutes.

VS blood spike Choking gas mixed with a cry or two really helps to interrupt the spike. Blood Spike does not deal with Degen of hexes well. So with interrupts and a good pressure build you would have an easy win..

Rnub plays a good map for their spike, being hard to split on. They also play a good build vs how most GVG teams are playing. Your seeing allot less condition builds now that people are running a 3 monk line with another 2-3 /mo's for support. Less condition and hex builds are perfect for Blood Spike

DionStar
The Second Foundation

icemonkey · Mar 22, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

um if i recall don't the sentinals do like ~250 damage per hit? similar to the bladed in UW

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

I watched Zaishen, who runs a 7 N/Mo blood spike on fire hall, face iGi and highly evolved.
Clearly both of these guilds knew what zaishen was doing and they sat around their base at beginning and gave the sentinals a shot. so unless you attack sentinals with a ranger or maybe a caster yer dead gg. The sentinals murdered Evo's entire team when they went back way, zaishen won in 7 minutes. iGi tried to fight them, they went down slowly but surely, tried to outmaneuver, but one of the necros is N/W and has charge. So whoever goes past is immediatly folowed and spiked down. intterupts dont work well because there are so many spikers and the spike is always shadow then vamp gaze, too much damage. After iGi lost several they retreated and lost a few more on the way. The couple that were left went to get killed by the sentinels, then iGi raged at about 6 miniutes.

Watch out for zaishen they will ruin your day, and fire map when played properly is a nightmare. There is very little you can do against a prepared team.

a side note: two cry of frustrations should eliminate blood spike completely(they do not use QZ).

If you are serious about evo, then that is terrible. My guild has cleared the path with no one dead in just under 2 minutes. With an attrition build and 3 monk lineup, infusing blood spike is so freakin easy, the only way blood spike would counter is if they spiked the infuser. Also Running CoF against spike is a brilliant idea, but running two? I think that is a little overkill, just trust your monks for 1 spike and interupt the next, then push them back into their base.

Also if you run a CoF, and a ranger flag runner, then give up flag priority and have the ranger distract/savage shot their spikes to help the team survive a spike. Doing this adds a 2nd interupt and gives the offense more time to apply pressure to the spike team.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

The problem with spike builds using the Fire Map, is that is only good as long as they are facing guilds ranked lower than them. As soon as they start getting higher in the ladder, they will start playing on other guilds maps more often.