Curse

Byron · Mar 22, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I thought I was going crazy when i read that I had posted a new thread. I don't remember being drunk recently, so I concluded that I must have begun sleepwalking. Next time, a pm would be fantastic... /freakout

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I'm going to have to go with Ensign here and say I'm not creative nor inspired enough to think up of a remedy to the final halls map. My area of study is economics, I can analyse it and identify the problem, but if the solution is creative that's not me

I'll give it a gander, since its my fault that Ensign's grief is public knowledge.

I'd like to see a point control map, personally, as Ensign has alluded to. If there is 3 teams, there would be 3 points to hold; if 5 teams, 5 points to hold. Everyone, naturally, would start with one point under their control, with the objective being to take and hold as many points as possible in 10 minutes. To take a control point, your ghostly hero must "claim" it as he would an altar, but then he doesn't have to stay there, as that point is now yours until another team "claims" it.

The map itself would be wide open, ideally starting with every team being able to see eachother right off the bat. This should also curb the bodyblocking trends of HA. I was envisioning a great Collesseum of some sort, with some form of tactical obstacles to give the control points a terrain advantage.
The team with the most points controlled at the end of 10 minutes wins. If for some reason no points are taken, or if each team holds one point at the end of the 10 minutes, the previous victor would win the match(to encourage a de-throning).

A couple things:
-EoE would have to be nerfed. This should be done anyway, so np.
-No advantage would be given to the previous victor, only the honor of fighting in another great battle. That should take care of the "holding" builds.
-The ghostly should be able to be ressed and dped just like a normal character. This would discourage ghost hunting and ghost protection tactics. As I think about it, this should be done anyway..the 2 minute ghost res thing just adds to the monotony of HA.
-I'd like to see some rating adjustment for guilds who win HA. My theory states: (Number of consecutive wins in the HoH x 5) = guild rating award. This small reward wouldn't stop GvG at all, but at least it wouldn't be a point for uber guilds to reject HA.

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 22, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It's a shame that the final map in HA can be reduced to a popularity contest.

Too often have we had Power of my Rangers or Sir Coversman groupies go straight for our throats in the HoH, even when it means they sacrifice any hope of winning.

Patrograd · Mar 22, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'd like to see a point control map, personally, as Ensign has alluded to. If there is 3 teams, there would be 3 points to hold; if 5 teams, 5 points to hold.

I like this sort of idea. Imagine a map with say 13 obelisks, and three teams, each of whom start with a single flag, with another flag spawning every time they cap an obelisk, or one of the obelisks under their control gets capped by the enemy. Every 30 seconds that you hold a particular obelisk the power and range of its auto defences increases. At the end of ten minutes the team with the most obelisks under their control wins, in the event of a tie the team that holds the central "spare" obelisk wins, if none of the tied teams hold the central obelisk then the last team to cap any obelisk wins.

I think such maps, even if not on HoH itself, might encourage more imaginative builds and strategies. No point in capping a single obelisk, or pair of obelisks and camping it with a holding strategy as you will need at least five under your control at the end in order to win...

if you also got rid of the silly priest rez idea and had an auto rez every 2 mins if you arent on 60% DP then i think you would see fluid, tactical battles more akin to GvG than is presently the case.

LightningHell · Mar 22, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

^ Agreed

I really don't have any personal opinion do I...

(Sort of off topic, from here...please ignore if you mind)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

Too often have we had Power of my Rangers or Sir Coversman groupies go straight for our throats in the HoH, even when it means they sacrifice any hope of winning.

And by the way, which Guild are you from? Not that I'm any better, just I'm curious. (My guild isn't even on the ladder, damnit...)

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

If you're referring to me, I'm currently guildless-the old one split in half after the PvP'ers became very abusive towards the more casual guildies. I stayed with the PvE half, since they were nicer people, though I would have had more success with the others. The guild disbanded soon after.

Byron · Mar 25, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The damage prevention from playing smart alone is effectively a monk's worth of defense.

Not to mention the reaction time and reactive capabilities of a seasoned monk compared to a typical PUG monk. Experience is more often the difference in close HA matches, followed closely by luck.

Quote:

Here the standard is not keeping a kiting ally alive, but a stupid, unmoving, soft Ghostly Hero. You don't get any benefit from distributed defense and movement, every single bit of protection and healing on the Ghostly Hero has to come from your backline. He'll stand in AoE and let warriors rage his face, he doesn't care, but you can't let the bastard die. You *need* that third monk to keep him alive, and oftentimes support from other teammates as well.

lol @ "rage his face"

I've seen today some absurd but amazingly effective tactics from guild: Forlorn Savior. This is the extent of the defense overload:
4 rangers with Fertile season and symbiosis
3 monks and 1 mesmer with healing seed.
1 amazing bonder with life bond and vital blessing in the arsenal.

Their tactics are reduced to making the hp obstacle insurmountable. With all that health and healing seeds on almost everyone, it is impossibile to kill that ghost. On an altar match, like the one we were in, their team was unbeatable, with 4 punishing shots to keep our ghostly off the altar.

Quote:

Which is in so many words why teams that take HA seriously run spike... Spike makes all those additional monks liabilities instead of benefits, giving you the offense that's naturally strong against the only defense a team can reasonably have.

That combined with the things mentioned above will make for an optimal HA team. Everything can be protected against, it's the art of reducing the reaction time that makes kills come easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I'd say it takes about five hours of trying unranked people to get eight people who know what they are doing - casual environment where you can at least provide some semblance of competivity it is not. I can't speak for what higher ranked groups are like - maybe it improves.

It really doesn't all that much. You will get people who know what they are doing, but like all PUGs, the unreliability and individual priorities are definitely present. A ranked group means that you will win more, but you're more likely to catch a lot of flaming if you lose. People get emotes and then they get big heads. Vent drama is something I laugh at, but a lot of ranked players seem to take their teams way too seriously for my taste.

"Next target, next target, next target. Next target!"
"Lets not let me die next time!"
"Get the spirits...Dont go in the traps!" --> personal favorite for my W/E
"That's the slowest infuser I've ever seen."
"Put the prots up before they spike me." --> personal favorite for my psychic Mo/Me.

LightningHell · Mar 25, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

4 rangers with Fertile season and symbiosis
3 monks and 1 mesmer with healing seed.
1 amazing bonder with life bond and vital blessing in the arsenal.

Wait...I'm upset. 9 players?

icemonkey · Mar 25, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

I know we are supposed to discuss factions stuff in that factions forum or wahtever but I think these new alliance battles are the kind of middle between gvg and HoH that would be a good forum for a little less serious PvP game. The multiple control points but no ghostly to baby sit mean you will have to have flexible characters and a lot of movement. The weekend event form of random 12 man teams sucks, and if that is how it is gg no serious pvp players will play it. But i am assuming you will be able to pick a 12 man team when factions actually comes out. It seems like it will be a serious PvP area but losing is not really punished. Hoh is a serious PvP environment but if you lose it really is no big deal even if people think it is. If you lose in GvG that goes on yer record and that makes gvg a lot more intense.
so alliance battles might be just what people are looking for.

angshuman · Mar 26, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Based on Gaile's original description of the Alliance battles, it seems to me that the format is going to remain 4/4/4-vs-4/4/4. Which really sucks, because despite the initial observable balance issues (Heap Party, MM etc.) the entire concept seemed to be really interesting.

Byron · Mar 26, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Wait...I'm upset. 9 players?

The bonder was part of the three-monk tandum there, and yes, im sure he/she had healing seed.

Kabale · Mar 27, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Hell, my hypothesis is that the Hall of Heroes is so much different from GvG, and every gametype besides dais, that playing to win on that map actively makes you worse at GvG, and every gametype besides dais really.

This may be true for your average scrub, but people that know what they're doing know that they have certain skills on their bar made specifically for that gametype, and recognize that that skill would be complete utter trash in any other gametype. I don't think GvG and HA should be compared at all.

However, certain HA skill combinations and concepts still have viability in GvG, and HA is still a good place to learn how to pull them off.

banishd · Mar 27, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

if you run healing seed in gvg please uninstall.

Kabale · Mar 27, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by banishd

if you run healing seed in gvg please uninstall.

Read first maybe:

Quote:

I've seen today some absurd but amazingly effective tactics from guild: Forlorn Savior. This is the extent of the defense overload:
4 rangers with Fertile season and symbiosis
3 monks and 1 mesmer with healing seed.
1 amazing bonder with life bond and vital blessing in the arsenal.

Their tactics are reduced to making the hp obstacle insurmountable. With all that health and healing seeds on almost everyone, it is impossibile to kill that ghost. On an altar match, like the one we were in, their team was unbeatable, with 4 punishing shots to keep our ghostly off the altar.

Byron · Mar 27, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by banishd

if you run healing seed in gvg please uninstall.

I guess you're referrring to the heavy enchantment removal most guilds will bring to the battle. This is very true, but they still won't be able to remove every enchantment you throw out there.
If you have a monk with 15-16 in healing prayers, then why not bring a seed to put on a runner? Not every team is going to have a necro to desecrate enchantments. A healing seed with a prot spirit makes a runner just about unkillable for 10 seconds. So while the other team maneuvers to body block, your team assaults and makes them regret forfeiting those 10 seconds... how about aoe ftw there? Just as well, it can always go on the guild lord in a pinch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

I don't think GvG and HA should be compared at all.

You may be right there, but in my defense, this thread itself wasn't my idea, only my initiative. Ensign's point is that playing in HA will make you a worse GvG player, and I'm in no position to refute that. Our argument can realy be reduced to this: GvG takes much more time and skill to do right, and HA is almost completely an arena of map tricks and holding tactics.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 27, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I guess you're referrring to the heavy enchantment removal most guilds will bring to the battle. This is very true, but they still won't be able to remove every enchantment you throw out there.
If you have a monk with 15-16 in healing prayers, then why not bring a seed to put on a runner? Not every team is going to have a necro to desecrate enchantments. A healing seed with a prot spirit makes a runner just about unkillable for 10 seconds. So while the other team maneuvers to body block, your team assaults and makes them regret forfeiting those 10 seconds... how about aoe ftw there? Just as well, it can always go on the guild lord in a pinch.

Healing Seed's problem in GvG is that it's easily countered by Tab + Space. If your target gets a seed you just switch targets, and it isn't a fast enough cast to be any kind of a spike counter.

There aren't many situations in GvG where the enemy must attack one specific character, and if such a situation does come up your opposition is likely going to be stripping them of enchantments anyway. Ultimately, the slot you used on Healing Seed is almost certainly better spent on something which will allow you to do normal healing in a pressure-heavy metagame, rather than a situational spell which is easily countered by something that everyone brings along.

Byron · Mar 31, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Healing Seed's problem in GvG is that it's easily countered by Tab + Space. If your target gets a seed you just switch targets, and it isn't a fast enough cast to be any kind of a spike counter.

You're right of course, but with the combined forces of Fertile Season, Symbiosis, and life bond, it does become an anti spike. As if those three things weren't making my life hard enough, once I could actually get someone to half hp, a healing seed would find him/her. So I cried as I watched my attacks heal more than hurt.

Quote:

There aren't many situations in GvG where the enemy must attack one specific character, and if such a situation does come up your opposition is likely going to be stripping them of enchantments anyway.

Yes, enchantment removal is nothing short of rediculous in GvG play, and I wouldn't have expected anyone to be using enchantment heals until recently: iQ has been using an infuser who pretty much spams healing breeze. I must say, breeze combined with boon-prot is a pretty effective heal, especially for kiters.

Quote:

Ultimately, the slot you used on Healing Seed is almost certainly better spent on something which will allow you to do normal healing in a pressure-heavy metagame, rather than a situational spell which is easily countered by something that everyone brings along.

If the recharge were less, I think it would be standard equipment on a healing monk in any kind of PvP play. As you say, it pretty much guarantees a target-switch. But, the recharge is what it is, and monks are very reliant on skill availability and reflexes, so seed is ignored for good reason. Plus, there is always diversion to worry about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Waters

some of matches won are completely because of Luck....trust me

Very true of HA, especially on multiple team maps. Not true of GvG, unless there is an err 7.