Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 27, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BannyD

during the first factions preview event i played as a temple strike R/A and tore apart just about any caster...except for this one. everytime i would try to 'spike' him he would wait until i had all my conditions on him...then used plague signet [E] and completely screwed me over instead. Im just wondering if something like that would become more common...

In RA possibly, but even there you have better options. I ran with a Plague Touch monk in TA when everyone was spamming Temple Strike and it worked alright. I could immediately blind any assassin that was on me if they tried to Temple Strike, and it generally made them completely non-scary.

In GvG though, you're insane if you use your elite to strip a few conditions off of yourself. Far better to rely on an ally with something like Restore Condition and ran an elite that will actually be useful against most teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BannyD

also im very excited about the new mesmer skills. Psychic Distraction...is god. I ran it in HA for a bit and could interrupt -anything- endlessly. Im not completely sure, but I believe it even interrupts through resolve as i wasnt having one bit of trouble making the lives of trappers hell....since you will most likely be spamming this 10E skill, try filling up your bar with a bunch of signets and mantra of inscriptions, there is a whole new line of useful signets for mesmers.

Psychic Distraction is an excellent skill, but it also disables your signets. Thus, the real challenge with a Psychic Distraction build is making the rest of your skills things that shouldn't be spammed. Long recharge skills that are effective when used occasionally, along with some energy management you can throw in now and then. 8 seconds of non-interruption isn't trivial when shutting someone down, so the less often you have to wait out that timer the better off you'll be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BannyD

one last thing i was wondering about..is if a Ritualist/Ranger spirit spammer could replace a prot monk. with Ritual Lord and serpents quickness...you can hold up union and shelter (universal shielding hands + prot spirit) almost endlessly as well as throwing out other nice spirits.

I can't see a Ritualist replacing your standard Boon Prot build. It just doesn't have the quick heals of a Boon Prot, and while the protection is nice it won't hold up against pressure for long. In a standard two-character backline replacing a Boon Prot with a ritualist will weaken you, IMHO. If you're running a three-character backline having one as a Ritualist to replace an active prot certainly becomes viable.

However, I think the Ritualist is best as a character with some defense in addition to another role. Each of their lines is versatile enough to perform several different roles. Throwing Shelter and Union on a build can be a great choice, but that build should be filling a lot of other roles on the team as well.

Since most of their spirits have to be set up on or near the backline, I found that one of their ideal roles was warrior punishment. If you've got skills like Pain and Destruction in the backline you can effectively keep warriors from Frenzying, and the utility of skills like Shadowsong against warriors is obvious. Ritualists make it difficult for warriors to extend into the range of their spirits, and many of their spirits can also be used offensively if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

That's what's being analyzed here, the fact that there are now counters vs. Warriors that together are so hard and difficult to resolve that they are "mortal" damage dealers like everyone else with the right tools.

The challenge of warriors has never been that there aren't any viable counters. You're right that blood necros are much more difficult to counter, but even without counters their damage just isn't enough to be scary.

If you haven't already, I suggest you read Ensign's post Why Nuking Sucks. Specifically the part where he discusses damage threat. This exact topic is covered in detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Challenge: Have you and a friend take two pure Warriors (or secondaries with no offensive spells/skills) into TA with no attack skills. Bring full Mesmer and Monk support if you wish. Please show me a picture of any extended win streaks that you are able to earn. It's not that simple, is it? Under Wail of Doom that's stacked by hexes, it'll be interesting. It's a good thing Hex removal is improved, but of course that costs extra slots.

I've gone on a 22 Flawless streak in TA with a two-warrior build. I don't have any screenshots offhand, but next time my guildies go into TA with a serious build I'll see what I can come up with.

However, I don't think the challenge really applies because there aren't a whole lot of good players in TA (though certainly I've seen some excellently build teams, they're not the norm.) Likewise, the game isn't really well-balanced for 4v4 play.

So here's my challenge: Find me some matches on Observer Mode where a team that isn't running spike is also not running warriors. While you're at it, find me some matches where teams don't bring warrior hate.

The current game is centered around warriors as primary DPS. If you take warriors out of the game it doesn't give other classes a chance to shine as damage, it just forces people to use spikes because they can't get really strong DPS any other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arredondo

Warrior/Monk + support is hopefully not the end-all example of a great team anymore. Rits have few spells to worry about being countered (if they can survive ritual cast times, lol), Necros are better in almost every area, Mesmers fit into growing specialized roles, Assassins for Daze (if nothing else) seems pretty solid early on. Who knows? Maybe Eles will be tweaked again to sustain more consistent damage over time. If Warrior-hate is commonplace as we move on in so many forms, offense from additional sources have to be discovered and used.

I'm not saying at all that I think the other classes are useless. Eles have a lot of excellent utility and e-management skills, necros are a veritable toolbox, capable of utility, disruption, and some extra damage on the side. Mesmers are the masters of any kind of disruption, and I'm sure we'll get a better idea of the use of assassins and rits as well.

But currently, warriors are the only class that can really maintain a strong scary DPS. Assassins may have DPS to match when the right builds are discovered, though thus far I haven't seen them do anything that would make me run an assassin over a warrior in GvG. Rits likewise have some good damage, but it seems to resemble blood necro damage much more than warrior damage. That is, it's some nice extra pressure and serves the team well in its own right, but on its own it's not going to be killing anyone.

If you're right and warrior counters reach the stage where warriors really aren't viable as damage, then there needs to be a new way to deal effective DPS. Otherwise, it's just spike vs spike and nobody really wants that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I think that lots of people might start using assassins mainly ass secondaries for teleporting/some of their hexes/defensive stances. That's what I feel their best use is as.

I'd tend to agree with this one. I haven't seen anything about assassin primaries that make me want to run them over professions with more useful primary attributes. I'm hoping that the assassin primary attribute will get a buff before release, but we'll have to see.

Byron · Mar 27, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I didn't see anything that lead me to believe warriors would be more useful than they already are.

There was also nothing that led me to believe that warirors would become any less useful or more easily replaced and/or countered. In GvG play, pretty generally, a team without a warrior is a team that's gonna lose.

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A lot of the new skills and elites are designed around dps, other than spike.. which I like.. but you still only have one real spike option with eviscerate still.

I have to disagree there. We know that hammers are often too slow to do any quick big damage, but swords have seen a big buff in this new salvo of skills. Of course, nothing is better for sustained and reliable big hurt than a hammer. I've said this a lot now, but there should be a new sword combo on the market:
conjure lightning or judges insight->Frenzy->Bull's strike->Hundred blades->Sun and Moon slash->Final thrust.
Much more reliable big damage than an axe combo in the same amount of time, and RoF, RC, and prot spirit aren't nearly as much of a healing factor. Even guardian gets a debuff with the sword double attacks, as your actually swinging 6 times in 4 hits. I am in love with the new and improved sword spectrum, and think you should be too.

---

Personally, I'm happy with the dominance of warriors. Wouldn't be much of a game if it were simply spell casters dodging eachother around the map trying to unload a super-spell.
That said, I'm not happy that a warrior is so dominant that it is awkwardly necessary to a team's success. Very few teams have survived in <100 guild play without a warrior leading the charge, and those few are the definitely the exception. Makes gameplay a little redundant, but thankfully, there are a bunch of stubborn smiters and spikers out there who keep things interesting.

neoflame · Mar 27, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meteoric

Sundering cant be trash either since everyone uses it...

Equivocation. JR means "everyone" with respect to high-end GvGers. You mean "everyone" with respect to PvE scrubs.

Symbol · Mar 27, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Personally, I'm happy with the dominance of warriors. Wouldn't be much of a game if it were simply spell casters dodging eachother around the map trying to unload a super-spell.

As if having a bunch of warriors running around beating people about the head with heavy objects is any more fun to watch or to play. It would be much better if there was a viable non-spike caster based offense in this game.

Furthermore the sheer amount of enchant hate is getting retarded. It's all well and good for monks whose enchants are spammable, but with factions it's gotten to the point where NO other enchant reliant build can survive in GvG.

Quote:

conjure lightning or judges insight->Frenzy->Bull's strike->Hundred blades->Sun and Moon slash->Final thrust.

Conjure is a waste. You don't have a cover and it has a 60 sec recharge. Judge's insight doesn't do anything special with dual attacks. I don't see what your fascination with the double hits is, both sun and moon slash and HB are inferior to galrath/silverwing in terms of single target damage.

Galrath -> Silverwing -> Final is a better spike IMO, and doesn't rely on enchants.

Rey Lentless · Mar 27, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

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Erm by that description, i'm sure you meant double dragon? Its not a ranged aoe, its a pbaoe, and one that gives you exhaustion as well, on top of being elite, so its not really that great.

Ok, that sucks too then :/

Quote:

Furthermore the sheer amount of enchant hate is getting retarded. It's all well and good for monks whose enchants are spammable, but with factions it's gotten to the point where NO other enchant reliant build can survive in GvG.

No, retarded was NR. I don't see anything in the game that makes you not want to bother with enchants the way NR did.

Quote:

Conjure is a waste. You don't have a cover and it has a 60 sec recharge. Judge's insight doesn't do anything special with dual attacks. I don't see what your fascination with the double hits is, both sun and moon slash and HB are inferior to galrath/silverwing in terms of single target damage.

Galrath -> Silverwing -> Final is a better spike IMO, and doesn't rely on enchants.

I don't think most builds have room to worry about stripping a conjure lightning off a warrior.

Quote:

conjure lightning or judges insight->Frenzy->Bull's strike->Hundred blades->Sun and Moon slash->Final thrust.
Much more reliable big damage than an axe combo in the same amount of time, and RoF, RC, and prot spirit aren't nearly as much of a healing factor. Even guardian gets a debuff with the sword double attacks, as your actually swinging 6 times in 4 hits. I am in love with the new and improved sword spectrum, and think you should be too.

Dual hits mean more adrenaline, doubling up on buffs, and restricted less by prot spirit and rof.. so I agree there. I wouldn't however skip out on a deep wound in fear of RC.. so I can't agree with that. I like the new sword stuff, but still as a second warrior.. and even then.. the lack of a good deep wound skill.. blah.

Quote:

Psychic Distraction is an excellent skill, but it also disables your signets. Thus, the real challenge with a Psychic Distraction build is making the rest of your skills things that shouldn't be spammed. Long recharge skills that are effective when used occasionally, along with some energy management you can throw in now and then. 8 seconds of non-interruption isn't trivial when shutting someone down, so the less often you have to wait out that timer the better off you'll be.

Yah, I think it'll make for an interesting bar. I played with the skill a bit over the weekend and it's definitely nice.

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Of course, nothing is better for sustained and reliable big hurt than a hammer.

I think that's debatable.. but with enraged smash, it certainly wouldn't be.

Ensign · Mar 28, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Furthermore the sheer amount of enchant hate is getting retarded. It's all well and good for monks whose enchants are spammable, but with factions it's gotten to the point where NO other enchant reliant build can survive in GvG.

Just because there are new skills available doesn't mean that the proportions in builds is magically going to change. Each build still only has access to 64 skills. Every skill that goes into a build from the expansion replaces a skill that was there pre-expansion. I like seeing a bunch of new options to play with, but they're just that, options. How many and where they get played, we'll still have to wait and see.

Peace,
-CxE

Byron · Mar 28, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Conjure is a waste.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Now you've gone and hurt my feelings. Conjure is a beautiful thing, and I wouldn't trash it until you've tried it. Its like all good drugs in that after you've had your first go at it, you just want more.

Quote:

You don't have a cover and it has a 60 sec recharge.

Point taken. But consider this: they could just as easily blind,weaken, or hex snare me as they could strip my enchantment, perhaps even more easily. So what's the point of trying to attack in the first place?

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Judge's insight doesn't do anything special with dual attacks.I don't see what your fascination with the double hits is

You've never experienced the beauty of hundred blades with conjure lightning and judges insight. I know its just about unfathomable in <100 GvG play, but it is amazing nonetheless. In my defense, swords are more reliable than axes(no 8-damage hits with swords vs 60 armor).

Quote:

both sun and moonslash and HB are inferior to galrath/silverwing in terms of single target damage.

Not with the enchantment factor, and maybe not at all in the first place. Just as well, double hits and zealous weapons are nothing short of amazing.

Quote:

Galrath -> Silverwing -> Final is a better spike IMO, and doesn't rely on enchants.

Ah, yes, but i wasn't searching for a replacement to eviscerate->executioner's.

tafy69 · Mar 28, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

You've never experienced the beauty of hundred blades with conjure lightning and judges insight. I know its just about unfathomable in <100 GvG play, but it is amazing nonetheless. In my defense, swords are more reliable than axes(no 8-damage hits with swords vs 60 armor).

I dont think you experienced it either as you would quickly find out that they dont stack.

Judges Insight makes your attacks deal Holy Damage
Conjure Lightning needs Lighting damage to work

But Judges on Hundred Blades alone is pretty nice, and you would need a Zelous Sword to keep your energy up anyway eh.

Rey Lentless · Mar 28, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

In my defense, swords are more reliable than axes(no 8-damage hits with swords vs 60 armor).

The average damage on the axe is still higher. Criticals against running foes is much better with axes as well.

Personally I think swords base damage should be buffed. Since axes are obviously much better against moving targets, swords should have better dps (not skills, just mean standard damage) against opponents that aren't moving.

Hammers really don't do enough damage to justify slower spikes and a lack of a shield either IMO. Axes have too much going for them compared to the other two.

glountz · Mar 28, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

My two cents.
I think the big change in Factions metagame will come from Ritualists, not Assassins.
They are deadly at point control (and this is important in Alliance Battles-GvG also, imagine a flag point surronded by ennemy hurting/healing spirits? Gah.)
During the FPE, in PVE, I soloed most first areas with the proper combination of spirits. Spawn them, aggro, watch the slaughter.
Some ritualists skills, even if I didnt unlocked many of them (I focused first on the assassin), seem really too powerful.

Like this one:
Lively was Naomei
15E 6c 20r
Spell. Hold Naomei's ashes for up to 60 seconds. When you drop her ashes, all party members in the area are resurrected with 15...63% Health and zero energy.

I confess I didn't test it. Now, I imagine this skill in an EoE build. Cast it, sacrifice party members while killing ennemy party, drop ashes, pop, everyone stand up. Recast it, rince and repeat.

I already shared my thoughts about Primary assassins in another thread in Assassins section. I don't see them replacing warriors, having another role than warriors, and going far in the metagame. As secondaries, I think they will be powerful, but not as primaries. But well, I hope I'm wrong.

JR · Mar 28, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

A warrior can kill a spirit in seconds. If you surround the flag stand with them, you are just delaying the other team slightly. Spirits are really only powerfull when put in your backline, out of reach of the enemy team. However that makes a large number of Ritualist spirits far less effective.

However, I do think you are right on one point. Ritualists will change the game more than Assassins. Assassins to me seem to be an arena gimmick, basicly. Great fun to play, look pretty impressive... but struggle to do anything particularly effectively. Temple Strike is one of those skills that just rocks arena, but as a melee class... that's about as far as you will go.

Ranger/Assassins... now they could be interesting. Not entirely sure how many people I will see actually using them in GvG, I have yet to play with them extensively myself.

Ritualists on the other hand do have potential. More so in HA than in GvG I think, but it is still there.

glountz · Mar 28, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

A warrior can kill a spirit in seconds.

Well, if you consider only the spirit damage and base health, you may be right. But I think you're too fast saying that.
First, high Spawning Power is really helping in having strong spirits.
Secondly, you forget the astonishing side effects of the spirits. A warrior come? Shadow song. Mend ailment? Don't care, if under Shadowsong fire, the warr will be blinded more often than Mend ailment can recharge. See also, Earthbind, Wanderlust, Disenchantment, Dissonance. If a core point is surrounded by such spirits, taking it will be seriously hard.
Not to add that while you're striking the spirits, you let ennemy team untouched and acting freely. And spirits can bodyblock.
I think the "target monk first" will soon become "target ritualist first".
I'm really impatient to see what will become the metagame after Factions release.

JR · Mar 28, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Secondly, you forget the astonishing side effects of the spirits. A warrior come? Shadow song. Mend ailment? Don't care, if under Shadowsong fire, the warr will be blinded more often than Mend ailment can recharge. See also, Earthbind, Wanderlust, Disenchantment, Dissonance. If a core point is surrounded by such spirits, taking it will be seriously hard.

Then you just Orb and Wand the warrior hate spirits down first. Not that I am saying they are ineffective, more that they are just not going to be the great flag stand defense you implied.

tafy69 · Mar 28, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

I think they will be great backline defences tho, oh yes I can see that ritualist in the backline being a royal pain in the arse.

SaintGreg · Mar 28, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

I think if you got your full set of spirits out near the flag stand, and your whole team was there, yes they would be reasonably tough to kill, but when is a team realistically going to let you get all of your spirits out to defend a key control area? Considering that gvg is the only place that ritualists will be useful (well maybe fire and forgetting spirits around key control areas in AvA, but I think the cast times gimp your mobility too much to just have them get powered through anyways), I think that it is good that at least they will have a specialized role plopping spirits in the backline adding defense.

Former Ruling · Mar 28, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

I'll hit on Touch Rangers. Since I've played one off and on in RA for a long time.

I say RA, because they are really only effective in 4v4 (TA and RA). This is just because of the build design and it cant be fixed.

Touch rangers are really fast and good DPS, sure, but its transient.

First of all, Touch rangers are good because the enemy doesn't come prepared for them. What two hates do you have...Caster Hate, and Attack Hate (called warrior hate, but I lump bow rangers in there). They dont immediently come prepared for non-spell, non-attack DPS. I've had people try to put up Whirling Defense and other stances like that and just go back to what they were doing, and I've had Mesmers try to Power Block/drain/etc me, and I've had Empathy/Backfire/etc put on me...They try to use whatever they have avaiable from their hates against me not realizing its all ineffective.

Now the bad side. Touch Rangers dont preform well under attack. This is true of all rangers really (what do rangers have...Def stances, and a long cast time health regen skill?), but touch rangers especially because of the close quarters.

Secondly, like I said eariler, Touching is transient. Theres a point where even through expertise and OoB, you WILL empty your energy pool. Its its not as far off in the future as you think at the start of battle, especially if you have to stay on a target through monk heals. And the problem with this is, the Touch ranger becomes a useless mass of flesh standing there while he waits for all or most of his energy to come back. Why wait so long? because unlike normal casters, the Touch ranger has to see no end to his energy pool before he can effective attack again. If you jump on a target and only have energy for a limited number of touches, then you are as useless as if you werent attacking them. you have to finish the job, or you just wasted alot of time and have to recharge energy AGAIN.

suiraCLAW · Mar 29, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Like this one:
Lively was Naomei
15E 6c 20r
Spell. Hold Naomei's ashes for up to 60 seconds. When you drop her ashes, all party members in the area are resurrected with 15...63% Health and zero energy.

I confess I didn't test it. Now, I imagine this skill in an EoE build. Cast it, sacrifice party members while killing ennemy party, drop ashes, pop, everyone stand up. Recast it, rince and repeat.

I already shared my thoughts about Primary assassins in another thread in Assassins section. I don't see them replacing warriors, having another role than warriors, and going far in the metagame. As secondaries, I think they will be powerful, but not as primaries. But well, I hope I'm wrong.

I tried Lively was Naomei, and really It is an amazing spell in CA (it's like an improved divine intervention). But it won't work that well in an EoE build because it only res you ~2 secs after you drop it -> the other team will get a win before you got rezzed (believe me, i tried it). So you'll still need a MoP monk to make it work (and we all know that that monk uses light of dwayne wich has a faster cast time).

zoozoc · Mar 30, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

man spirit walk is gimped, seriously. If sprits every become popular, this skill is gonna dominate, as long as your build has spirits and they do, you can warp back and forth all you want, either warp to a spirit to kill it, or warp to simply get into the backline and spike that annoying spirit spammer or some other target, then simply warp back. Only 5 energy and no recharge.

Linkusmax · Mar 31, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I think Ranger Melee beastmasters will still rule the roost in GvG preassure builds, even with all these warrior buffs. A Bunny Thumper and a Sword Melee Beastmaster are just devastating preassure (with a spike once the enemy hits sub 50%)

As an addendum if you want a Touch Ranger without major energy problems try this, Ferocious strike is such a great emanagement we never have problems with energy in GvG. (Not that we run this that often, I much orefer the extra fire elementalist)

3] Ranger/Necro (Touchy feely)

Vampiric Touch
Touch of Agony
Rigor Mortis
Ferocious Strike [e]
Necrotic Traversal
Revive Animal
Charm Animal
Res Signet

12 Beast Mastery
12 Blood Magic
11 Expertise
2 Curses

JR · Mar 31, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

I think Ranger Melee beastmasters will still rule the roost in GvG preassure builds, even with all these warrior buffs. A Bunny Thumper and a Sword Melee Beastmaster are just devastating preassure (with a spike once the enemy hits sub 50%)

Rule the roost? Not a chance. They don't have the spike ability of a Warrior, or the armor.

Be occasionally usefull in specific pressure builds? Maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

As an addendum if you want a Touch Ranger without major energy problems try this, Ferocious strike is such a great emanagement we never have problems with energy in GvG. (Not that we run this that often, I much orefer the extra fire elementalist)

3] Ranger/Necro (Touchy feely)

Vampiric Touch
Touch of Agony
Rigor Mortis
Ferocious Strike [e]
Necrotic Traversal
Revive Animal
Charm Animal
Res Signet

12 Beast Mastery
12 Blood Magic
11 Expertise
2 Curses

Why would ANYONE want a touch ranger in GvG? Keep Arena gimmicks to Arena.