Curse

Symbol · Mar 26, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Looking through the faction skill list there seems to be an awful lot of stuff that either indirectly or directly aids warriors in doing damage. Things that stand out:

quivering blade + plague touch = big DPS + daze on opposing casters a significant chunk of the time

weaken knees: spammable necro curse elite means no more kiting.

shatter storm: a sword warrior can take this and (almost) single handedly take care of enchant removal for the entire team.

Order of apostasy: Craziness. Party enchantment removal on EVERY hit. Almost ensures that your adrenal spikes will kill.

I dunno, it just seems kinda off to me. After factions it seems that no one is going to run anything other than warriors or the occasional assassin for offense, since the new skills allow you to almost completely ignore two big sources of damage mitigation (defensive enchants and kiting).

Well come to think of it that's not much different from the way it is now, but this makes it worse, if that's even possible...

Meanwhile the one class that was supposed to be an alternatives to warriors for damage (elementalist) gets trash like smoldering embers.

Mared Text · Mar 27, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Yup, and to top it off, eles got jack.

Byron · Mar 27, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Looking through the faction skill list there seems to be an awful lot of stuff that either indirectly or directly aids warriors in doing damage.

I would argue that is especially true in the sword spectrum. Instead of dulling the power of axes, they just increased the power of swords to make it somewhat even. I've designed a rough build around this idea, and think you might like to check it out:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3000470

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weaken knees: spammable necro curse elite means no more kiting.

This may make the necro an essential in 8v8 play, as if Spiteful spirit wasn't enough reason to bring a necro.

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Order of apostasy: Craziness. Party enchantment removal on EVERY hit. Almost ensures that your adrenal spikes will kill.

Is that just another reason to have a necro around?

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I dunno, it just seems kinda off to me. After factions it seems that no one is going to run anything other than warriors or the occasional assassin for offense, since the new skills allow you to almost completely ignore two big sources of damage mitigation (defensive enchants and kiting).

And we will see the rebirth of IWAY hybrids. What a great day for competitive play.

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Meanwhile the one class that was supposed to be an alternatives to warriors for damage (elementalist) gets trash like smoldering embers.

Some of the elites might help with big damage, but as for DPS, there's no justice.

Farin · Mar 27, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

quivering blade + plague touch = big DPS + daze on opposing casters a significant chunk of the time

IF it gets blocked, even then It lasts like 5 seconds at high swordsmanship. Will last 4-3 seconds max on the caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

weaken knees: spammable necro curse elite means no more kiting.

Well not really, it is spammable but not the point where you can't kite. Good skill nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

shatter storm: a sword warrior can take this and (almost) single handedly take care of enchant removal for the entire team.

Well, 7 seconds per enchantment, 10 energy cost, Elite. I don't think it's worth. Even on a sword warrior, I would rather take charge or hundred blades, I wouldn't use one of my elites only for enchant removal, not now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Order of apostasy: Craziness. Party enchantment removal on EVERY hit. Almost ensures that your adrenal spikes will kill.

25 Energy, elite. Enough said, has it's uses but it's nowhere close to being overpowered.

OverlordTyrael · Mar 27, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

IF it gets blocked, even then It lasts like 5 seconds at high swordsmanship. Will last 4-3 seconds max on the caster.

Well, 7 seconds per enchantment, 10 energy cost, Elite. I don't think it's worth. Even on a sword warrior, I would rather take charge or hundred blades, I wouldn't use one of my elites only for enchant removal, not now.

With skills like aegis being so dominant in PvP, there's a good chance it will be blocked, and if it doesn't, then you just did some fairly major damage (nothing to scoff at for 4 adren. for sword).

Charge and hundred blades are trash. It's definitely worth taking as an elite, as it allows you to kill someone who's MoP, seeded, or bonded, all of which are problems for warriors. One of the only other viable alternatives for sword warriors is Dragon Slash, which I think is pretty good (but that's just me.)

Symbol · Mar 27, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

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IF it gets blocked, even then It lasts like 5 seconds at high swordsmanship. Will last 4-3 seconds max on the caster.

Guardian and aegis are pretty common, and quivering blade has an adrenaline cost of 4, meaning you're going to spam it often, and it's probably going to get blocked. Dazed is really powerful and shouldn't be tossed onto a skill as an afterthought.

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Well not really, it is spammable but not the point where you can't kite. Good skill nonetheless.

Huh? 5E, 5S recharge, and it lasts 40(!) sec at 16 curses. How is this anything BUT spammable.

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Well, 7 seconds per enchantment, 10 energy cost, Elite. I don't think it's worth. Even on a sword warrior, I would rather take charge or hundred blades, I wouldn't use one of my elites only for enchant removal, not now.

You just need one mass enchant removal to throw a wrench in the works. Shatter storm is just a really, really, good one.

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25 Energy, elite. Enough said, has it's uses but it's nowhere close to being overpowered.

You don't need to run it all the time, just when you're going to spike. Again, not overpowered per se, but it skews the metagame further towards physical damage dealers, and I don't think that's a good thing.

mint · Mar 27, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Huh? 5E, 5S recharge, and it lasts 40(!) sec at 16 curses. How is this anything BUT spammable.

Exactly. I can't wait for the current life siphon/parabond hex spreading necro to start carrying this

Arathorn5000 · Mar 27, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Shatter storm is not good on a warrior period, that's reaching to the bottom of the barrel.

Razoo was right about trying to plague touch an unreliable 3-4 second dazed onto a caster being ridiculous.

Charge and hundred blades are certainly not trash. Dragon slash is good, but does require you building around it a bit, and has awful synergy with final thrust so you can't use them on the same bar.

Symbol · Mar 27, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

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Shatter storm is not good on a warrior period, that's reaching to the bottom of the barrel.

Why? Hundred blades is only worth it if you're buff stacking. Charge is the only decent alternative if you're not going to pick a sword elite.

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Razoo was right about trying to plague touch an unreliable 3-4 second dazed onto a caster being ridiculous.

It doesn't need to be "reliable" when you can do it so often. The fact of the matter is, you get a 4 sec daze on your target (which is 4 secs of no casting) when QB is blocked, and big DPS when it isn't.

QB is essentially a superpowered cleave with a "drawback" that actually turns into a big benefit.

SaintGreg · Mar 27, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

An IWAY build will turn "Retreat!" into "Attack!"... now they will attack 25-33% faster, move 33% faster, and have 6 pips of hp regen. Plus their squishies can kite better as well.

I don't see how you can consider quivering blade + plague touch is at all super powerful when they are going to be kiting anyways which will turn it into about 2.5 seconds or less. Especially compared to broad head arrow or bestial mauling. Quivering blade is still just a sword version of cleave however you look at it.

Warriors did seem to get big buffs, but all classes also got armor buffs as well. Most classes now have an armor +10 with a reasonably useful condition (eg while enchanted). That will help vs warriors, but it will also make eles suck even more at dealing damage...

Ensign · Mar 27, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Guild Wars PvP is about three professions: Warriors, Mesmers, and Monks. The other professions fill in gaps that those 3 can't fill themselves.

Warrior elites are like gold. Before putting anything on a character you have to ask yourself if that guy's a better warrior than an Eviscerate guy for what you're trying to do. It's not impossible, but it's a high standard. I certainly think that putting an elite enchantment removal on a warrior is a Bad Move (TM). What are your mesmers doing that's so important that they can't pull off some enchants?

There's a lot of good stuff in the new skills, but it's going to take a while to shake it all out. From a glance, though, the OP is right, Factions doesn't look like it's going to shake anything up horribly. That which was good before is still good, and that which wasn't, well, you get the drift.

Peace,
-CxE

twicky_kid · Mar 27, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

So far this entire weekend no one has mentioned expunge enchantments. Who needs enchantment removal this will be pulling 3-4 enchantments a hit easily. Shatterstorm is junk btw.

I think w/a is going to be a nice combo. BTW charge is probly the most important skill for gvg. Party mobility = gg.

Necros are going to be packing Flesh golem now. When you have another lvl 28 barring down on you that you cannot stop unless you kill the necro why would you be taking anything else. He also acts as a leader for your other minions. They seem to follow him and target the same even if you change targets. Weaken knees is good but we have bull's strike for kiting really no need for it. Would much rather have that lvl 28 minion pounding away.

Ele's got nothing at all. Still going to be blinding flash heal party spammers.

Rangers got needling shot and the cannot block or evade prep. Be ready for rspike in full force. Pets are still useless until they fix the AI.

Monks got the best energy managment skill on the game in the divine favor attribute finally. This is going to make killing a target much harder then before. Every mes might be taking complicate just to shut it down. Healing light will replace woh for sure due to the increase in hex and condition builds.

Mes got such a huge boost its not even funny. Psychic distraction is a new lvl of shutdown. You can lock a target out the entire game with a little help from a battery. It doesn't just interrupt spells its any skill and disables them for xx seconds. Resing is going to be so hard to now because you can hit one guy and have it recharged before another sig can go off. Overload is going to be used on every dom mes now to give extra spike and punish casters.

Kabale · Mar 27, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Ehm which monk e.management skill are you talking about? Cos if it's Boon Signet, then you're horribly wrong unless you can guarantee 3 enchants on whatever ally you're targetting every time you use it. Only then will it be roughly ~1E/sec and you need a pretty high spec in Divine Favor. Not to mention you'd have to cast it as soon as it recharges and is more or less prone to interrupts.

JR · Mar 27, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordTyrael

Charge and hundred blades are trash.

"Charge!" is very very far from being trash.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 27, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Dragon Slash is an interesting elite. While it makes your other adrenaline skills much more useable (I could all but spam Galrath and Sun and Moon slash when I had it equipped), it does make Final Thrust pretty difficult to use on a sword warrior. I think a Dragon Slash build has more pure DPS potential and less spike potential, but I haven't run any numbers on it as yet.

If Dragon Slash does catch on as a sword elite then I suspect we'll start seeing more uses of Charge on /Ws. The only reason it got used so much on Sword warriors was that there isn't really any other elite worthy of running in its place. As Ensign mentions you always have to weigh the value of a utility elite like Charge against the pure damage potential of another warrior elite raging your enemy's face.

Thom · Mar 27, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

There seems to be slight power crawling which I guess is inevidable.

The abundance of enchantment kills is probably a reaction to the current enchantment dominant environment (Divine Boon, Bonds, Orders, Ether Prodigy, Guardian, Aegis, Prot Spirit...). Your ritualist is almost enchantment free, but has several spell types that mirror enchantments in some ways. There really aren't any good ritualists out there yet, but I will baselessly claim that tombs and gvg will go to a ritualist utility guy to counter warriors.

There is also uncertainty about what assassins role in PvP. I am sure people will play with assassin spikes of various types, but I don't see any serious use for a Assassin primary since they come accross as "warrior lite".

arredondo · Mar 27, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Lol, no one mentions the Necro's new Wail of Doom? Any and all Warriors can just sit on the sidelines, watching the match and eating popcorn if they're chain cast with this thing:

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Wail of Doom
Description: Sacrifice 10% health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was attacking, all of that foe's attack skills are disabled for 5-17 seconds (21 at L16). This is an elite skill.

Energy Cost: 15
Activation Time: 1/4th of a Second.
Recharge Time: 15 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Soul Reaping. Increases duration.
Skill Type: Hex Spell.

With Serpent's Quickeness, two Necros can stop four melee players at will. Some people are talking about it at another site, but I guess the Warrior fans here don't seem to be too worried...should they be?

Ensign · Mar 27, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Only then will it be roughly ~1E/sec and you need a pretty high spec in Divine Favor. Not to mention you'd have to cast it as soon as it recharges and is more or less prone to interrupts.

It's not actually all that prone to interrupts, because of the fast recharge. Interrupting a single Boon Signet doesn't accomplish all that much. The bigger problem with the Signet is investment. Not just in the time you spend using it (if you're maximizing the skill you're looking at 30% of your time being devoted just to emanagement), but in the strain it puts on a team build to maintain 3 enchantments on a good Signet target. That's not to say that it isn't good, or that making a build that can support it is hard - it's just not something you can randomly drop onto your monks and expect it to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Dragon Slash is an interesting elite. While it makes your other adrenaline skills much more useable (I could all but spam Galrath and Sun and Moon slash when I had it equipped), it does make Final Thrust pretty difficult to use on a sword warrior. I think a Dragon Slash build has more pure DPS potential and less spike potential, but I haven't run any numbers on it as yet.

Yeah you pretty much pinned it, it's a really hot DPS skill, particularly for PvE. Once you get that thing charged your adrenal skills just keep cycling indefinitely. The importance of spike in PvP, and its poor interactions with both Final Thrust and block effects make it a bit more questionable there, but the skill really is a ton of fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The only reason it got used so much on Sword warriors was that there isn't really any other elite worthy of running in its place.

Other way around. You really don't run sword guys with Charge because there isn't a better sword elite. Most of the time, you run a sword guy because you really want a Charge, and once you give up the elite slot sword looks better than axe. If you didn't want a Charge that sword guy would probably be an axe guy with Eviscerate.

The other reason to use a sword guy is because you're planning on splitting up quite a bit. Sword warriors win duels with other warriors a substantial majority of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

There is also uncertainty about what assassins role in PvP. I am sure people will play with assassin spikes of various types, but I don't see any serious use for a Assassin primary since they come accross as "warrior lite".

Well they'll likely be used in warrior-type roles. Exactly what they'll be, we don't know yet. With 75 skills, you have to figure there's enough there for the profession to make sense somewhere even if it doesn't appear that it'll ever be a driving metagame factor.

At least in 8 man. In 4 man, Temple Strike is unfair amounts of fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Lol, no one mentions the Necro's new Wail of Doom? Any and all Warriors can just sit on the sidelines, watching the match and eating popcorn if they're chain cast with this thing:

Hey, don't overstate the value of the skill - those warriors are still going to be in there raging people's faces even with their attack skills disabled. Most warriors don't carry more than 2-3 attack skills anyway, the blackout doesn't hurt them nearly as much as a caster would be. Still, hitting someone with Wail of Doom pretty much guarantees that they won't be spiking anyone for a good 20-30 seconds depending on the spec. I don't know that it's worth an elite slot for general usage, but it's definitely something to keep in mind in case the metagame ever calls for it.

Peace,
-CxE

arredondo · Mar 27, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Four Blood Necros (using this 15s recharge, 1/4 sec. casting elite that lasts 20 seconds) with backline and utility support vs. four Warriors of any offensive build type supported by the same. I'm trying to figure it out... where does the Warrior team get it's damage from?

Necros: cast the melee-gimp, blood suck 8-10 times for 20 seconds, repeat.
Warriors: swing basic attacks, cast Succor for 20 seconds, repeat... what can they do?

JR · Mar 27, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Four Blood Necros (using this 15s recharge, 1/4 sec. casting elite that lasts 20 seconds) with backline and utility support vs. four Warriors of any offensive build type supported by the same. I'm trying to figure it out... where does the Warrior team get it's damage from?

Necros: cast the melee-gimp, blood suck 8-10 times for 20 seconds, repeat.
Warriors: swing basic attacks, cast Succor for 20 seconds, repeat... what can they do?

You under-estimate the damage a group of warriors can put out just by swinging away happily.