Curse

Patrograd · Apr 02, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

its entirely possible we are simply going to move from imbalance to imbalance with little downtime where anyone can run any build and the skill of the player will decide who wins.

if Guild "A" identifies a skill imbalance and makes better use of it than anyone else then they will win. To imply that you can do this without having the best players is wrong IMO, as being able to do this is what makes you the best players.

There isnt any room for pretty aesthetics in a competitive environment. You get no bonus points for losing or indeed winning with style. Either you win or you lose. The winners, and therefore the best players, will be those that do everything they have to do in order to win. Those who complain about teams running IWAY, Dual surge, split squad, ranger spike or whatever the current FOTM might be after it has beaten them are almost the very definition of Sirlin's scrubs. Do what you have to do to do to win, and accept that everyone else will do the same.

The team that does this the best will be champions, the rest wont be.

MadOnion · Apr 02, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Purge signet? Has this become standard in monk builds now??

ElderAtronach · Apr 02, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadOnion

Purge signet? Has this become standard in monk builds now??

No. AFAIK, iQ are the only ones to run it, which they've been doing ever since the skill rebalance.

rii · Apr 02, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

if Guild "A" identifies a skill imbalance and makes better use of it than anyone else then they will win. To imply that you can do this without having the best players is wrong IMO, as being able to do this is what makes you the best players.

There isnt any room for pretty aesthetics in a competitive environment. You get no bonus points for losing or indeed winning with style. Either you win or you lose. The winners, and therefore the best players, will be those that do everything they have to do in order to win. Those who complain about teams running IWAY, Dual surge, split squad, ranger spike or whatever the current FOTM might be after it has beaten them are almost the very definition of Sirlin's scrubs. Do what you have to do to do to win, and accept that everyone else will do the same.

The team that does this the best will be champions, the rest wont be.

You missed the entire point of my post.

JR · Apr 02, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

You missed the entire point of my post.

Not really. You said that in the "downtime" skill would decide the winners. This implies that for the rest of the time, game imbalances would, not skill. Patro was saying that skill is always a factor. And he is quite right.

rii · Apr 02, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not really. You said that in the "downtime" skill would decide the winners. This implies that for the rest of the time, game imbalances would, not skill. Patro was saying that skill is always a factor. And he is quite right.

You are also missing the point. The reason is you are pulling that quote out of a passage in which its context and therefore meaning is obvious- this is just quilting. May i direct you to:

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

and read it real careful.

"GW game depth is being affected by rapid development cycles...not balance. The will to win remains the same...simply that depth at high level in the words of sirlin will get "shallower and shallower"."

Thats quoted from someone else who said what i wanted to say a lot smoother. I can't be bothered to continue this discussion - if it isnt apparant what i wanted to say then Ill come back and try again later.

twicky_kid · Apr 02, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

In the end it is all player skill. No one else runs purge sig. Is there a reason why? Yes there is. No one else knows how to use it effectively like IQ does.

Not only is it player skill its all team synergy. They have a huge amount of offense in this build with only 2 condition and hex removals.

They have a good set up for them because they know how to run it. Put this build in another team's hands and watch them crumble. Its all about team synergy.

glenn_rolfe · Apr 03, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

In the end it is all player skill. No one else runs purge sig. Is there a reason why? Yes there is. No one else knows how to use it effectively like IQ does.
.

well that's not true. I play with a dedicated monk often who has this as as standard part of any bar he runs since the rebalancing.

As for the surge builds, it is such a nub build, but effective. But still nubby. yeah there's a few tips and tricks to it, but Surge, Burn, SoW combo is not great mesmer play.

Dzan · Apr 03, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

As for the surge builds, it is such a nub build, but effective. But still nubby. yeah there's a few tips and tricks to it, but Surge, Burn, SoW combo is not great mesmer play.

I fail to see how those skills are for noobs. The goal of pvp is to win, and I don't believe you get extra points for using 'creative' skills.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Apr 03, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

He is saying its not that great because a good monk can beat them by focus swaping. Things like Diversion and blackout are much better to combat good monks.

Also that article Rii posted was a good read

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 03, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I think the idea is that Surge/Burn mesmers aren't really difficult to play effectively, but that they're also really effective on a team. In theory, skills which require more player ability to use should have better returns when utilized at their peak (like Frenzy), and the current metagame/skillset doesn't allow for this.

Of course, it's not unique to Surge/Burners. Migraine mesmers weren't really difficult to play either, though at least you had to focus on multiple targets constantly. The more challenging Mesmer skills (interrupts, ect) don't see a lot of use because even at their peak they're just not as good against metagame builds.

Patrograd · Apr 03, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

You missed the entire point of my post.

Possibly, I was just venting at the general attitude that seems to prevade the community that if you run a FOTM build concept, no matter how well you play it then you are in some way a Nub, whereas if you play a new "creative" build, even if you play it like dogs, you are in some way superior. This is clearly daft, as whoever wins the most is clearly superior, whether they copied someone's build or run their own is completely immaterial.

Ensign · Apr 03, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

This isn't a very good build. Don't copy it. Many of the individual skill choices are misinformed or otherwise based on a poor understanding of the metagame.

Don't take this as an indictment of the dual surge archtype, obviously it's popular for a reason. I'm just saying that if you want to analyze the build look at iB's version or similar. They understand the build a whole lot better than we do so you're better off analyzing theirs.

Peace,
-CxE

Amras · Apr 03, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Hmm, I cant see who is the runner in this build...

JR · Apr 03, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

The water ele, I assume.

Thom · Apr 03, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Thanks for the clarification Charles. Glad to see iQ getting into the tournement, but I heard considerable complaining from the OUT crowd concerning your use of "their" build.

You ran the mixed spike to perfection today, which should be a wake up call to the current metagame. For all those who consider the current metagame stagnent, watch the responses to various builds going forward. The fact that iQ rocked several highly ranked teams with a warrior-free rainbow spike tells me that there is much to learn about this meta game still.

Amras · Apr 03, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The water ele, I assume.

The water ele doesn't have Armor of Mist, so he can't really be a runner.
I guess there just isn't a real runner.

Ensign · Apr 03, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

I heard considerable complaining from the OUT crowd concerning your use of "their" build.

Most of the complaints came from observer chat crediting us with their build, when that isn't the case. I had a long chat with 'em today about, well, everything, and I don't think there's hard feelings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

The fact that iQ rocked several highly ranked teams with a warrior-free rainbow spike tells me that there is much to learn about this meta game still.

The details still need to be fleshed out, sure, but it's still a two pronged metagame, with one being warriors and the other being spike. If you can kill things with warriors, great, run them, but if you can't figure out how to kill things without spiking you're better off just getting into spiking contests.

Warriors are only relevant if you're trying to apply pressure - if you are they're mandatory. If you just want to spike often end up being a liability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amras

The water ele doesn't have Armor of Mist, so he can't really be a runner.
I guess there just isn't a real runner.

Welcome to 2006. The guy with the speed boost just to run flags faster is a dinosaur.

Peace,
-CxE

Amras · Apr 03, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

So who is running the flag without the speed boost then? The water ele?

Patrograd · Apr 03, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amras

So who is running the flag without the speed boost then? The water ele?

often the flag runner is whoever tends to be available to run the flag. The water ele in many builds is often employed as flag runner when he is free to do so, but also he might be responsible for "holding" gank teams in conjunction with a monk while the rest of the team gets back to kill them. In this situation someone else would be running the flag.

Our build employs a water ele who is nominally the runner, but in fact he probably doesnt run the flag as often as our necro does, as in 80% of battles or more he is holding and then freezing base gank teams so we can get back to kill them. Generally we run the flag as a team using "Charge" when we are passing that way.