Curse

Banebow · Mar 31, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

If, say, guilds not in a towns controlling alliance could still enter the "elite" areas, just at an expensive price, I would have no trouble with the setup. I would be happy to pay 5k in gold or faction to take a shot at one of these missions, even knowing the controlling alliance can get in for free, because I know I won't be in that controlling alliance. The big guilds get to go in as often as they want, and the little guilds don't get locked out. The area will still take skill to complete, so a small guild with highly skilled players will do better in the area than a massive guild of idiots, which keeps us somewhat along the track of rewarding player skill while still keeping the basics of the reason for town control.

But not letting me in at all? Even an idiot can farm faction, so the whole town control idea will become nothing more than a "who has the bigger alliance" type of thing. Maybe this is ANet's idea of rewarding PvE players, but if so, I believe they may want to rethink it.

Maybe we should start screaming for a nerf now, that way we have lots of time to get riled up

Raxxman · Mar 31, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

my major worry is large numbers of 'sweatshop' guilds.

Bot farmers farming faction 24/7 out powering everyone else, with others using the exclusive zones to farm unique skins to sell on ebay or the like.

The system doesn't work well for the 'small guild' or 'casual gamer' and leaves me feeling that I'll spend more time in Prophs than in Factions

SilentAssassin · Mar 31, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

I will just see what happens,

if there are to many missions I miss out because I don't control a town I will not be happy and alot ppl will think the same.

BUT we will see

gou · Mar 31, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

if guild/alliance faction decayed by a percentage based on the total number of it's members then worst case scenarios such as these need not be a worry.

Takeko Nakano · Mar 31, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raxxman

my major worry is large numbers of 'sweatshop' guilds.

Bot farmers farming faction 24/7 out powering everyone else, with others using the exclusive zones to farm unique skins to sell on ebay or the like.

That could be a problem. Anyone can farm faction, so it would be a question of who got the most people together and had them working away for the longest.

I have no problem with alliance members being able to access "special" areas of towns, given that I see them as a place to trade (not really interested in people seeing "asthetics"), or even a discounted rate on some items. But I don't like the idea of PvE content being totally out-of-reach of such a large majority of players. UW and FOW were fine when Europe was able to get the favour, as it essentially rotated through timezones. But with this system there would be no such rotation.

ANet had better consider this very carefully before releasing it. People will not be happy if they cannot access certain PvE content. And I don't think running people through into such areas is a good idea. The amount of scams would sky-rocket, and it's highly likely that people would leave even if they got you in.

WasAGuest · Mar 31, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

Well the discounted merchant prices might mean that rare crafting materials are a lot cheaper then normal, of course you could always join one of these guilds and not contribute at all or contribute very little and still reap benefits, but i always assumed the whole point of "buying" a city was bragging rights, i mean thats the whole point of PvE in most other games, i have the l33test armor etc., i mean before the GWWC that was the whole point of being good at GvG, there was no benefit except having fun (which you can do getting faction to buy a city). And most ppl who win HoH dont do it so they can get into FoW/UW but everyone from that territory gets to enter for a measly sum of 1k, but no one is complaining about that being unfair to the ppl who win HoH. The only difference between the current territory system and the "owning" of the towns is that those who PvE can actually participate more easily in securing these elite missions.

Bragging rights has little to do with anything. Bragging implies imposing jealously onto others. Someone gets FoW armor, they should be congradulated for their effort on getting the armor, not seen as a "bragart".
The rewards of PvP, or lack thereof is a different thread than this one. If those that play PvP are feeling cheapened by the lack of rewards, I suggest heading to Sanitarium and starting a thread asking for some rewards that don't have PvEers standing around like fools waiting for their content to become available. Let's not have this thread turn into yet another PvE vs PvP thread. There's already plenty of those around. And you'll find me being flame broiled in many of them too.

Alliances contain both PvP and PvE players. The topic at hand is larger alliances and the exploiting of the system in place could affect smaller guilds and casual players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

Also they could always make it so the fee everyone else pays goes directly to the alliance that owns the city, pretty much insuring they either get tons of gold or tons of faction that they can use to keep this town and buy others, but its obviously a better choice then only a select few entering the elite mission.

This is mostly the problem. Paying already larger alliances, thus keeping them more powerful is not in anyway balanced. On the flip side, the winning alliance spent so much time gaining that city and a non-alliance member comes in and pays 5k to enter the mission (which is dramatically less than what the controlling alliance spent to gain it) isn't fair to the controlling alliance. As I said before, an alliance member spends 60k for X points to win the city to gain access to the missions, then someone comes along and spend 5k to gain access to the same... ugh... I'd be ticked if I was the person that spent 60k and all that time. The 5k cost is of course, hypothetical. Either way, it's unfair and completely unbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

How is it not? Those who make multiply characters do every quest to get as much faction for their alliance and who really want to "own" a town dont have any kind of advantage over those who play once a week?

If I'm understanding this correctly, your asking about how someone spends so much time gaining control shouldn't be rewarded for it. If this is correct, then it comes back to time over skill. Remove casual players and small friend based guilds from play and only hardcore players with lots of time need apply.

Over the course of six months, who's to say some casual players wont be ready to partake in these elite missions. Or even more so, those casual players that haven't the time to create yet another character simply bring over their current level 20(s). These players will be thrust into faction farming for no reason unless they are part of a huge alliance. This just goes back to them not really needing to bother, or brings up yet another issue. Why farm faction points non-stop when chances to gain access to the elite missions are so slim or simply support another alliance, when you can farm for gold and have a huge bank account in six months for Chapter 3?

Point is the faction point system is a disaster waiting to be unleashed. It's not balanced for casual or small guilds/alliances. The content should not be "locked" to anyone reguardless of alliance or faction. We've been asking for new challenges for what feels like ages and now that it is almost here, we see that access to it, is limited at best. err=7 on Anet if that's indeed the design they went for.

What's the point of being able to bring over level 20 characters if they get to sit around waiting for zones to unlock - ala FoW and UW all over again?

Unlock content = happy players. Locked content = frustrated players.

Loviatar's point is a good one, and as always, his posts are filled with that sadistic since of humor I enjoy /evil grin. There may be lots to play besides the elite content, but after that's done, what then? Farming... yea!?!

SirShadowrunner · Mar 31, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

This is mostly the problem. Paying already larger alliances, thus keeping them more powerful is not in anyway balanced. On the flip side, the winning alliance spent so much time gaining that city and a non-alliance member comes in and pays 5k to enter the mission (which is dramatically less than what the controlling alliance spent to gain it) isn't fair to the controlling alliance. As I said before, an alliance member spends 60k for X points to win the city to gain access to the missions, then someone comes along and spend 5k to gain access to the same... ugh... I'd be ticked if I was the person that spent 60k and all that time. The 5k cost is of course, hypothetical. Either way, it's unfair and completely unbalanced.

Are you saying 60k in gold?? and does mean you can buy areas with gold to control?
If so, I smell ebay gold buying going way up then, I hope you cannot control areas
thru gold, I assume it is controlled thru playing only. Let's say you are charged 5k to
enter a mission in a controlled area, your team fails the mission in 2 secs. now are
you paying another 5k to try again??, and if there are six ppl going in together on a
mission that is 30k gold from the team, and if you have 100 teams paying you this
that would be 3mil gold, wow, now who gets the gold, and how is it split up???

I know I'm in right-field again......

Xioden · Mar 31, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

EQ2 actually had something sorta kinda simliar to the faction points called status points. Originally guilds could assign guild patrons who could earn said status points, which would level the guild and allow access to higher raids (the equivilent of these elite-missions). They were earned by doing special quests, and writs (simple little kill a number of a certain type quests).

The same problem would have come up, people with more patrons would have it much easier getting these points, so it was setup so that the actual amount earned was divided by the amount of patrons. The problem with this, if you weren't actively contributing you were hurting the guild more than helping. (The system was changed around at some point, however I left shortly after and don't remember how the changes worked).

Something like this for guild wars wouldn't really work, but something somewhere needs to be done. Alliance only access to certain areas is taking 'Favor of the gods' to the extreme. Rather than having access limited to 20-35% of the population, you have it limited to at most 1000 people, assuming all are active and all have factions, which realistically means somewhere in the neighborhood of at most 300 people. I'm sure there is quite a bit of FUD behind it, but I wouldn't be surprised if one super-hardcore alliance formed that kicked people who weren't online for more than a few days ended up controlling what they felt is/are the best spot(s) (depending on if an alliance can control multiple locations). Doing something like this and really the only thing that would have a chance to take it from them would be another super-hardcore alliance.

As it is now, even small guilds only need 8 people to try and compete for Prophecie's few restricted areas (If your area doesn't have favor thats all you need to go jump into HA and take a stab at it, and even if you don't make it all the way and hold halls to capture favor, you were at least able to make an attempt at it). For Factions, given the same situation, it would be like having the team currently holding halls another 50 people on they're team and having to go through them all as a team of 8. There is just no competition in the current setup, larger alliances dwarf smaller ones hands down, no questions asked, which is what the problem is.

The choices left? Get more members, or grind like hell in hopes your able to overtake that big alliance, the former being against the whole principle of close-nit guilds, the latter, not exactly most people's idea of fun.

WasAGuest · Mar 31, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirShadowrunner

Are you saying 60k in gold?? and does mean you can buy areas with gold to control?
If so, I smell ebay gold buying going way up then, I hope you cannot control areas
thru gold, I assume it is controlled thru playing only. Let's say you are charged 5k to
enter a mission in a controlled area, your team fails the mission in 2 secs. now are
you paying another 5k to try again??, and if there are six ppl going in together on a
mission that is 30k gold from the team, and if you have 100 teams paying you this
that would be 3mil gold, wow, now who gets the gold, and how is it split up???

I know I'm in right-field again......

Nah, 60k in faction points. What we've seen is that you can farm (via quests or mini games, mostly PvPish games for score, points or kills) faction points to a max of 10k on your account. Then you go and turn in the points for armor materials, or put it forward to your alliance standing. Meaning, you go farm for faction points, turn in and repeat. For an alliance standing turn in, it costs 5k faction point for 10 alliance standing. It's like a ladder system that you purchase spaces on.
So, as you can see, with the above example, the controlling alliance has to farm pretty non-stop to gain and keep the cities. The more players farming within the alliance, the more non-stop alliance standing they get. Thus, the casual and smaller guilds get left out out dry.

The purchasing of entrance is only a theory and one that has a good and bad side to it. It would be bad for small guilds to further support the larger alliances that are already in control as it sets up a near monopoly and a reason for the "sweatshop farmer". It's good in that casual players and smaller guilds could then at least have access to the challenges they are seeking - even if they get wiped out, at least they got to try it.

The cash switching hands brings up an whole different evil situation. If the casual player or smaller alliances can't get access to the drops in those elite missions, then the controlling alliances have an even higher reason to keep farming faction points as it will turn into cash for the alliance. The controlling alliance would then be able to charge whatever they want for items dropped there or charge an entry fee (if they are allowed to bring non-alliance members with them). Which could, as you had said, turn into a 5k entrance fee per person or more for the greedy.

As Xioden also says, the situation does apply more to a grind like game such as EQ2 (never played it, but did play EQ out of beta and up to a year ago). Even in those super grind games, it doesn't work well and causes issues with players not being able to play the content they paid for without some sort of non-stop farming.

Hopefully Anet sees these posts and does something about it before release. /kneel /beg

Loviatar · Mar 31, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

for those who actually care about this i have made up something that can be copy/paste and pm/email to Gaile/Alex.

dear Gaile/Alex (your chioce)

i am very concerned about how access to faction controlled town elite quests will be handled.

will it be the same as favor of the gods in chapter 1 so that if i am on the side that controls the town i have access to the benefits?

or will only a few hundred players have access to them.

thank you for any information you have available that you can share with us.

SilentAssassin · Mar 31, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

for those who actually care about this i have made up something that can be copy/paste and pm/email to Gaile/Alex.

dear Gaile/Alex (your chioce)

i am very concerned about how access to faction controlled town elite quests will be handled.

will it be the same as favor of the gods in chapter 1 so that if i am on the side that controls the town i have access to the benefits?

or will only a few hundred players have access to them.

thank you for any information you have available that you can share with us.

I think we already know that those elite missions are only for the allience (10 guilds max) who controls the town.

Loviatar · Mar 31, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

I think we already know that those elite missions are only for the allience (10 guilds max) who controls the town.

and thank you for making my point.

you think but as has been said many times no definitive answer has come up yet.

also if people politely sent in something like that instead of a forum rant it might have more effect.
since i dont care i simply thought i would provide something for those who do.

cheers

EDIT

if you do have a link to official info i will change in a flash

Theos · Mar 31, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

I think we already know that those elite missions are only for the allience (10 guilds max) who controls the town.

At most we know its free to that Alliance, we have yet to see any evidence that it will be in anyway locked out for everyone else beyond a small fee.

Gli · Mar 31, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

At most we know its free to that Alliance, we have yet to see any evidence that it will be in anyway locked out for everyone else beyond a small fee.

The Factions FAQ mentions that the elite missions will be available to the alliances controling the town/outpost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factions FAQ

"What are alliances and how do they work in Guild Wars Factions?"

Guilds can join together to form guild alliances. Allied guilds share Alliance chat and can visit each other’s guild halls. Alliances can also gain control of towns and outposts in Cantha by participating in Alliance Battles, which give them the ability to trigger events and gain access to exclusive areas.

"What is a faction? Should I join one?"

Alliances belong to one of two warring factions, the Kurzick or the Luxon, and being a member of an alliance allows participation in alliance battles. Victory in an alliance battle earns faction points, and members can spend their points individually or they can add them to the alliance bank, which will enable the alliance to acquire control of towns and outposts. The outcome of these battles influences the progress of the war between the two factions. The current battle lines, and indications of the control of cities and towns, are always visible on the world map. Guild membership in Guild Wars Factions is extremely appealing and interesting for both cooperative and PvP players. By joining an alliance and achieving success with Alliance Battles, your guild gains control of high-level towns. With that control, guild members acquire access to elite cooperative content. In Factions, the strongest guilds most likely will not be made up exclusively of PvP or cooperative players. The strongest guilds will be a combination of both types of players, and such a combination will result in benefits for all members.

"What are the game types within Guild Wars Factions?"

Here are the new game types:
Challenge Missions
Cooperative missions involve specific scoring objectives, such as holding out against progressive waves of enemies. You will see personal bests and high scores displayed within the game.

Elite Missions
The most powerful alliances have access to new areas that are designed to be the ultimate cooperative challenge.

Competitive Missions
Multiple teams compete to control resource points and achieve strategic victory. Victors earn faction points for their alliance which will determine the control of towns and outposts.

Alliance Battles
Alliance Battles are large-scale, strategic PvP battles that allow factions to conquer new territory.

The alliance access of elite missions is mentioned in 3 places, without a single footnote or aside elaborating on alternative ways to access these missions. There's no reason to assume the FAQ doesn't state exactly how it's going to be.

Loviatar · Mar 31, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

The Factions FAQ mentions that the elite missions will be available to the alliances controling the town/outpost.

The alliance access of elite missions is mentioned in 3 places, without a single footnote or aside elaborating on alternative ways to access these missions. There's no reason to assume the FAQ doesn't state exactly how it's going to be.

thank you for the information.

as Gaile said in an earlier post things may change substantually before release.

for those who care i hope so.

personally abour the elite quests i think Rhet told Scarlet best

Theus · Mar 31, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I think that guild alliance points simply wont matter..I think the way it will be is simly to show which guild is quite possibly the most dedicated fighters to the Kurzick/Luxon cause.

I think these "elite" areas will only be accesable to the faction that currently controls them.Since it would be absolutely retarded to only let 1000 people only access those areas.

Zehnchu · Apr 02, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

They have also said the best rewards are also in the elite missions. Which would be beneficial to top alliances, let’s say there’s a rare drop that is only in one of the elite missions, no one can get this item unless they are in a in the alliances that is controlling town. Of course they would have to work a lot harder to keep the town but they also can set the price of that item and keep the price up. They can of course sell memberships to people to allow then to gain access t to the area. But then again that may not even happen.

WasAGuest · Apr 02, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I think that guild alliance points simply wont matter..I think the way it will be is simly to show which guild is quite possibly the most dedicated fighters to the Kurzick/Luxon cause.

Unless they change the way it worked during the FPE, Guild Alliance points, or the Alliance faction standing (as listed in the guild window) is what the Faction awards the alliances when the boreders are moved. The higher your alliances faction standing is, the bigger the city you are awarded when the borders move each day. So, it's really all about the faction standing, which means faction point farming is what it's all about. As Anet stated, it gives the players a reason to go back and do some of the quests as well as "bring PvE and PvP closer" (the PvP mini games). Not going into that more as the ever popular PvE and PvP debate starts at that point... heh

Borders move, the most dedicated fighters (farmers) are awarded the cities. The more points farmed, the bigger the city and so on. Other wise there's no point in putting points into the alliance pool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I think these "elite" areas will only be accesable to the faction that currently controls them.Since it would be absolutely retarded to only let 1000 people only access those areas.

Which is what we are all wondering at this point... why? if? and what in the!?!?

Loviatar · Apr 02, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

it may be favor of the gods in a different form.

remember that you still have cities,towns,and outposts on your side of the fence as well and your side has access to those while the other side screams in anguish that they dont care that they control 99 % of the map the very best items are dropping in the 1% they dont control.

laugh at them

Aeon221 · Apr 02, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

i was always under the impression that everyone from the particular alliance that help the town would get lowered merchant rates and would be able to enter the elite missions for free, while ppl from the same faction, but different alliance would have to pay some sort of fee to enter the elite mission (like kurzick/luzon faction or gold much like in UW/FoW now). But i could be wrong, but it does make sense for it to work this way, rewarding players who put a lot of time into the game while still allowing mostly everyone access. (except for ppl of the opposite faction)

I read this too, but can't remember where.

I'm not worried, because I play with a guild of people that likes having lots of people in it, as opposed to you small guild types, who seem bent on excluding people from your guild.

Anet is trying to get more people to play together. If you choose not to go along with them, if you choose to isolate yourself, you don't really deserve the rewards that the people who make big guilds work are getting.

Besides, you guys are ignoring the biggest exploit. If my alliance gets a town, I get cheaper merch prices. If the price difference is 20%, I can buy a salvage kit and sell it for 90g and turn a profit without having done a thing. I can do that all day. MAJOR exploit in my eyes.

If players were unable to trade with one another, most of the issues we have would be gone. Intermediary merches that pay fair prices for everything!